You have a plane and a conveyor belt.

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

Hm? I'm not following this logic at all... can you expand a bit?

 

[clarkmo]

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

So, so wrong. It does move.

Where does it go?

 

[BrokenVisage]

How is this thread still alive? Of course it wouldn't fly!

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

So, so wrong. It does move.

Where does it go?

Wherever the pilot wants to take it?

 

[Rubycon]

You could build a plane that used the wheels to move it forward and then your conveyor would keep it from taking off.

Of course a plane like this could take off but not stay airbourne long - as soon as the wheels left the ground the driving force is gone and gravity pulls her back down. It would still be funny to see.

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

So, so wrong. It does move.

Where does it go?

It takes off like it normally would, of course.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: TankGuys

Originally posted by: BUrassler

That is my understanding and stance on this question. I read that the OP said the wheels will always match the belts speed, leaving the plane at a stand still.

Glad I am not going crazy!! (I think!?)

Yea, that's the problem though... if the wheels always match the belt speed, there are some paradoxes that will arise, so it's not possible.

But, assuming the belt moves back at the same speed as the plane moves forward, it takes off, no problem.

But that assumption would be ignoring the OP's stipulation, right? I just want to clarify.

According to the OP's exact wording, the plane would not take off. However, in reality, it would take off?

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: BUrassler
According to the OP's exact wording, the plane would not take off.

Wrong.

 

[clarkmo]

Originally posted by: TankGuys

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

Hm? I'm not following this logic at all... can you expand a bit?

Assume the plane typically requires an airspeed of 60 knots to create the lift for take off and it is generating sufficient force from it's propellors to acquire that air speed if it wasn't on a conveyor. In your theoretical take off, the plane would have enough force to go 60 knots. From 0-60 at lift off. This was a little tongue in cheek and probably won't fly with you mathematical wizards but then again, neither will the plane.

 

[Banzai042]

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

Ok, here you go (for the 3rd time or so), an analogy that explains exactly why it WILL take off



Ok, here's an analogy, if you put a rolling suitcase on a moving walkway at an airport that is moving at 5mph, and you walk beside the walkway (*NOT* on it) pulling the suitcase in the opposite direciton at 5mph, does the suitcase move, even though the treadmill surface (moving walkway) moving backwards at the exact same speed you are pulling the suitcase forward at? If you said yes, you're right .

Now lets put an airplane on a treadmill that moves backwards at the same speed the plane moves forward, but the thrust from the engines is pushing on the wings, *NOT THE WHEELS*, thus when force is applied to the wings the wings apply force to the rest of the plane and push it forward, causing it to accelerate to takeoff speed.

 

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Assume the plane typically requires an airspeed of 60 knots to create the lift for take off and it is generating sufficient force from it's propellors to acquire that air speed if it wasn't on a conveyor. In your theoretical take off, the plane would have enough force to go 60 knots. From 0-60 at lift off. This was a little tongue in cheek and probably won't fly with you mathematical wizards but then again, neither will the plane.

Okay, let's take this bit by bit, and see if I can try and explain this. Let's use my analogy.

Now, picture yourself with a matchbox car and a treadmill. turn the treadmill on. Can you hold the car in place, with your hand, to keep it from moving relative to you? If so, how hard do you think it would be?

 

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: Banzai042

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

Ok, here you go (for the 3rd time or so), an analogy that explains exactly why it WILL take off



Ok, here's an analogy, if you put a rolling suitcase on a moving walkway at an airport that is moving at 5mph, and you walk beside the walkway (*NOT* on it) pulling the suitcase in the opposite direciton at 5mph, does the suitcase move, even though it's moving backwards at the exact same speed you are pulling the suitcase forward at? If you said yes, you're right .

Now lets put an airplane on a treadmill that moves backwards at the same speed the plane moves forward, but the thrust from the engines is pushing on the wings, *NOT THE WHEELS*, thus when force is applied to the wings the wings apply force to the rest of the plane and push it forward, causing it to accelerate to takeoff speed.

Also an excellent example, this is exactly the same thing.

 

[Banzai042]

Now lets see if he reads what we posted.

 

[waggy]

sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: Banzai042

Originally posted by: clarkmo
Let's say the plane's take off speed is 60 knots. When it's on the treadmill it's not moving but the wheels are spinning. If the plane were to take off it would be going 60 knots in the blink of an eye, exploding and possibly initiating time travel. But it wouldn't fly. If you think it would then you should design the next aircraft carrier. Your country needs you!

Ok, here you go (for the 3rd time or so), an analogy that explains exactly why it WILL take off



Ok, here's an analogy, if you put a rolling suitcase on a moving walkway at an airport that is moving at 5mph, and you walk beside the walkway (*NOT* on it) pulling the suitcase in the opposite direciton at 5mph, does the suitcase move, even though the treadmill surface (moving walkway) moving backwards at the exact same speed you are pulling the suitcase forward at? If you said yes, you're right .

Now lets put an airplane on a treadmill that moves backwards at the same speed the plane moves forward, but the thrust from the engines is pushing on the wings, *NOT THE WHEELS*, thus when force is applied to the wings the wings apply force to the rest of the plane and push it forward, causing it to accelerate to takeoff speed.

That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

 

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: BUrassler

That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

This is why we're saying the wording is important. If you say the wheels and belt must move at the same speed, and the engines are on, and nothing is physically holding the plane in place, it's impossible. Flat out, completely, 100% impossible.

So, we're talking about the situation where the belt moves backwards at the same speed as the plane moves forward, this is the only system we can even discuss, since it's the only one that's even physically possible

 

[JujuFish]

Originally posted by: BUrassler
That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

Wrong.

Let's look at the OP:

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
The plane increases it's thrust and the wheels begin to rotate. The belt compensates for the rotation of the wheels in reverse, as in the belt moves in reverse exactly as fast as the wheels move forward.

Notice the bold part. It does not say it needs to be the same as the wheels' angular velocity, but rather its linear velocity.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: TankGuys

Originally posted by: BUrassler

That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

This is why we're saying the wording is important. If you say the wheels and belt must move at the same speed, and the engines are on, and nothing is physically holding the plane in place, it's impossible. Flat out, completely, 100% impossible.

So, we're talking about the situation where the belt moves backwards at the same speed as the plane moves forward, this is the only system we can even discuss, since it's the only one that's even physically possible

Thank you very much for saying that. That is all I wanted to know.

 

[BUrassler]

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: BUrassler
That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

Wrong.

Let's look at the OP:

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
The plane increases it's thrust and the wheels begin to rotate. The belt compensates for the rotation of the wheels in reverse, as in the belt moves in reverse exactly as fast as the wheels move forward.

Notice the bold part. It does not say it needs to be the same as the wheels' angular velocity, but rather its linear velocity.

I cant argue that b/c I dont know what that means exactly. If 5mph and 10mph are not different speeds though, I live in a crazy world.

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Originally posted by: BUrassler

Originally posted by: JujuFish

Originally posted by: BUrassler
That leaves the wheels turning at 10mph and the belt at only 5mph, breaking the OP's rule.

Wrong.

Let's look at the OP:

Originally posted by: NanoStuff
The plane increases it's thrust and the wheels begin to rotate. The belt compensates for the rotation of the wheels in reverse, as in the belt moves in reverse exactly as fast as the wheels move forward.

Notice the bold part. It does not say it needs to be the same as the wheels' angular velocity, but rather its linear velocity.

I cant argue that b/c I dont know what that means exactly. If 5mph and 10mph are not different speeds though, I live in a crazy world.

angular velocity is rotational speed, not speed along a path. Picture a car skidding with all its tires locked. The tires have no angular velocity because they are not rotating, but they do have linear velocity because the car itself (and therefore the tires) is moving.

 

[clarkmo]

Originally posted by: waggy
sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

Then it's gonna have to move off the treadmill and then take off because as long as it's staionary on the treadmill there is no wind speed, no lift and no take off.
So the propulsion pulls or pushes it off the treadmill putting it on the ground and taking off, is that right?

 

[Banzai042]

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: waggy
sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

Then it's gonna have to move off the treadmill and then take off because as long as it's staionary on the treadmill there is no wind speed, no lift and no take off.

Are you deliberately avoiding my explinations? Here is one that is being posted for the 4th time in the past hour or so that you seem to keep missing.

Ok, here's an analogy, if you put a rolling suitcase on a moving walkway at an airport that is moving at 5mph, and you walk beside the walkway (*NOT* on it) pulling the suitcase in the opposite direciton at 5mph, does the suitcase move, even though the treadmill surface (moving walkway) moving backwards at the exact same speed you are pulling the suitcase forward at? If you said yes, you're right .

Now lets put an airplane on a treadmill that moves backwards at the same speed the plane moves forward, but the thrust from the engines is pushing on the wings, *NOT THE WHEELS*, thus when force is applied to the wings the wings apply force to the rest of the plane and push it forward, causing it to accelerate to takeoff speed.

 

[clarkmo]

Originally posted by: Banzai042

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: waggy
sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

Then it's gonna have to move off the treadmill and then take off because as long as it's staionary on the treadmill there is no wind speed, no lift and no take off.

Are you deliberately avoiding my explinations? Here is one that is being posted for the 4th time in the past hour or so that you seem to keep missing.

Ok, here's an analogy, if you put a rolling suitcase on a moving walkway at an airport that is moving at 5mph, and you walk beside the walkway (*NOT* on it) pulling the suitcase in the opposite direciton at 5mph, does the suitcase move, even though the treadmill surface (moving walkway) moving backwards at the exact same speed you are pulling the suitcase forward at? If you said yes, you're right .

Now lets put an airplane on a treadmill that moves backwards at the same speed the plane moves forward, but the thrust from the engines is pushing on the wings, *NOT THE WHEELS*, thus when force is applied to the wings the wings apply force to the rest of the plane and push it forward, causing it to accelerate to takeoff speed.

That's a stupid analogy because the only ones who get it already understand what tyou're treying to say. It teaches nothing. I edited my post and added...So the propulsion pulls or pushes it off the treadmill putting it on the ground and taking off, is that right?

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: waggy
sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

Then it's gonna have to move off the treadmill and then take off because as long as it's staionary on the treadmill there is no wind speed, no lift and no take off.
So the propulsion pulls or pushes it off the treadmill putting it on the ground and taking off, is that right?

Yes. the plane moves by propulsion from the engines, which push against the air. The plane doesn't care what's beneath it as long as the wheels are free to rotate. If the treadmill was long enough, the plane would take off on the treadmill as if it were a runway. If the treadmill were moving, the plane would be unaffected, however the wheels would be spinning faster. That's it.

 

[clarkmo]

Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead

Originally posted by: clarkmo

Originally posted by: waggy
sigh.

Q How does a jet engine work?


A If you've ever blown up a balloon, let it go, and watched it fly around, you know the basic principle of jet propulsion. A jet engine uses a gas turbine to drive a fan which sucks in air, mixes it with burning fuel, then blasts the expanded air-gas mixture out the back. Because every action has an equal and opposite reaction, as the air streams backward, the engine is forced forward. Modern, fuel-efficient engines called turbofans blow air around the main part of the engine as well as through it. This decreases noise and increases the amount of airflow, which in turn increases power.

bolded the important part. with how jet engines work the wheel speed DOES NOT MATTER. it is going to move foreward NO MATTER THE WHEEL SPEED.

Then it's gonna have to move off the treadmill and then take off because as long as it's staionary on the treadmill there is no wind speed, no lift and no take off.
So the propulsion pulls or pushes it off the treadmill putting it on the ground and taking off, is that right?

Yes. the plane moves by propulsion from the engines, which push against the air. The plane doesn't care what's beneath it as long as the wheels are free to rotate. If the treadmill was long enough, the plane would take off on the treadmill as if it were a runway. If the treadmill were moving, the plane would be unaffected, however the wheels would be spinning faster. That's it.

You get the apple :beer:
But you gotta share it with Wag