Yet another reason we need free public healthcare

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
http://poughkeepsiejournal.com...0/COLUMNISTS/707100319


Lady worked her whole life. She wasn't rich. She paid for health insurance. Turns out the health insurance she paid for from her employer excluded her condition from coverage (the only time she had ever tried to use it). She had to give up her life savings to the state medicaid division. They 'finally' approved her only for her to die from the condition a short time later.

We need free public health care for people.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
There is no such thing as "free" healthcare. What you are saying is more successful people need to pay so the less successful people can have healthcare.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no such thing as "free" healthcare. What you are saying is more successful people need to pay so the less successful people can have healthcare.

Don't worry, you'll live.
 

episodic

Lifer
Feb 7, 2004
11,088
2
81
Why should "any people" do without healthcare? Poor people don't deserve what they can't afford?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no such thing as "free" healthcare. What you are saying is more successful people need to pay so the less successful people can have healthcare.
Is there a limit of how many people you are willing to sacrifice at the altar of this ideology?
If a society doesn't take care of its sick at their time of need, what's the point of having a society in the first place?
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no such thing as "free" healthcare. What you are saying is more successful people need to pay so the less successful people can have healthcare.
Is there a limit of how many people you are willing to sacrifice at the altar of this ideology?
If a society doesn't take care of its sick at their time of need, what's the point of having a society in the first place?

Don't get melodramatic... Society is there for many reasons other than health care.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
There is no "free" healthcare. There is, however, affordable universal health care. The government should do something about health insurance. Also, please don't privatize it.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Great, let's use a single case to enact a sweeping national change! While we're at it, can I find a person in a social healthcare system who's delayed access to an MRI ultimately cost them their life and use it as an excuse to remove their entire socialized healthcare?
Poor people don't deserve what they can't afford?
Uh, go to dictionary.com and look up the word 'poor', since you don't understand what it means :)
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,521
598
126
Civics lesson number 2: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Meaning: There is no such thing as free healthcare.

You can't have a system paid for by the public and then pay doctors $200000.

You can't NOT pay doctors a lot of money until the cost of getting the education doesnt drop below the six figures plus it costs now.

Wages are too high in the health care industry in the US.

Equipment costs too much money.

Drugs cost too much money.

So unless you figure out a way to get people to work for less money we will never have a this health care utopia the left is looking for.
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,528
4
0
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Civics lesson number 2: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Meaning: There is no such thing as free healthcare.

You can't have a system paid for by the public and then pay doctors $200000.

You can't NOT pay doctors a lot of money until the cost of getting the education doesnt drop below the six figures plus it costs now.

Wages are too high in the health care industry in the US.

Equipment costs too much money.

Drugs cost too much money.

So unless you figure out a way to get people to work for less money we will never have a this health care utopia the left is looking for.

and, who'd wanna go to school for that long if you aren't gonna get rewarded for it?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Civics lesson number 2: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Meaning: There is no such thing as free healthcare.

You can't have a system paid for by the public and then pay doctors $200000.

You can't NOT pay doctors a lot of money until the cost of getting the education doesnt drop below the six figures plus it costs now.

Wages are too high in the health care industry in the US.

Equipment costs too much money.

Drugs cost too much money.

So unless you figure out a way to get people to work for less money we will never have a this health care utopia the left is looking for.

That's why the other nations in the world with cost of living similar to the US have health care that costs just as much as ours does, and are unable to provide universal health care.

How is it that the ideology is so strong that when *every other advanced cuntry in the world is doing it* these people are blind and say "can't be done"? It's just scary.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,549
1,130
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Civics lesson number 2: There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Meaning: There is no such thing as free healthcare.

You can't have a system paid for by the public and then pay doctors $200000.

You can't NOT pay doctors a lot of money until the cost of getting the education doesnt drop below the six figures plus it costs now.

Wages are too high in the health care industry in the US.

Equipment costs too much money.

Drugs cost too much money.

So unless you figure out a way to get people to work for less money we will never have a this health care utopia the left is looking for.

That's why the other nations in the world with cost of living similar to the US have health care that costs just as much as ours does, and are unable to provide universal health care.

How is it that the ideology is so strong that when *every other advanced cuntry in the world is doing it* these people are blind and say "can't be done"? It's just scary.

You are just as uninformed as the people you claim. Just look into medicare. Its going to cost us $30-50trillion. Or just look at GM and Fords medical coverege and what its costing them yearly. The US isnt a socialist nation. Price controls that other countries use will never fly in the US. Nor would making all medical professions state controlled.

Both of these things would have to happen in order for the US to have national healthcare. Neither one will ever happen.

The only other option is extremely high tax rates. Something that is even less likely to fly.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Great, let's use a single case to enact a sweeping national change! While we're at it, can I find a person in a social healthcare system who's delayed access to an MRI ultimately cost them their life and use it as an excuse to remove their entire socialized healthcare?
Poor people don't deserve what they can't afford?
Uh, go to dictionary.com and look up the word 'poor', since you don't understand what it means :)

Your just a wierdo?? There are plenty of cases with working people who have insurance (or thought they did) but get sick and find out they aren't covered. Go to the dictionary and look up "bankruptcy".

Nobody's safe. That's the warning from the first large-scale study of medical bankruptcy.

Health insurance? That didn't protect 1 million Americans who were financially ruined by illness or medical bills last year.

A comfortable middle-class lifestyle? Good education? Decent job? No safeguards there. Most of the medically bankrupt were middle-class homeowners who had been to college and had responsible jobs -- until illness struck.

Sick and Broke
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,275
965
136
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Craig234
That's why the other nations in the world with cost of living similar to the US have health care that costs just as much as ours does, and are unable to provide universal health care.

How is it that the ideology is so strong that when *every other advanced cuntry in the world is doing it* these people are blind and say "can't be done"? It's just scary.

You are just as uninformed as the people you claim. Just look into medicare. Its going to cost us $30-50trillion. Or just look at GM and Fords medical coverege and what its costing them yearly. The US isnt a socialist nation. Price controls that other countries use will never fly in the US. Nor would making all medical professions state controlled.

Both of these things would have to happen in order for the US to have national healthcare. Neither one will ever happen.

The only other option is extremely high tax rates. Something that is even less likely to fly.

Extensive deregulation would be very useful as well. I posted that link in another thread in response to craig234's posts, he didn't bother responding.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
81
That story's argument is a fallacy - it does not follow that if she'd qualify for coverage before getting Medicaid approval, she'd would actually get a transplant in time. Tissue transplant queues are years long...
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Craig234
That's why the other nations in the world with cost of living similar to the US have health care that costs just as much as ours does, and are unable to provide universal health care.

How is it that the ideology is so strong that when *every other advanced cuntry in the world is doing it* these people are blind and say "can't be done"? It's just scary.

You are just as uninformed as the people you claim. Just look into medicare. Its going to cost us $30-50trillion. Or just look at GM and Fords medical coverege and what its costing them yearly. The US isnt a socialist nation. Price controls that other countries use will never fly in the US. Nor would making all medical professions state controlled.

Both of these things would have to happen in order for the US to have national healthcare. Neither one will ever happen.

The only other option is extremely high tax rates. Something that is even less likely to fly.

Extensive deregulation would be very useful as well. I posted that link in another thread in response to another of craig234's posts, he didn't bother responding.


Deregulation? You know what happens when things get deregulated? Safety deteriorates. Look at the US meat industry, steel industry in the 1900s. You want to take a step back 100 years don't you? How many unlisenced doctors will you be willing to see?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Ronstang
There is no such thing as "free" healthcare. What you are saying is more successful people need to pay so the less successful people can have healthcare.
Is there a limit of how many people you are willing to sacrifice at the altar of this ideology?
If a society doesn't take care of its sick at their time of need, what's the point of having a society in the first place?

Don't get melodramatic... Society is there for many reasons other than health care.

How much do those things matter without health?
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Craig234
That's why the other nations in the world with cost of living similar to the US have health care that costs just as much as ours does, and are unable to provide universal health care.

How is it that the ideology is so strong that when *every other advanced cuntry in the world is doing it* these people are blind and say "can't be done"? It's just scary.

You are just as uninformed as the people you claim. Just look into medicare. Its going to cost us $30-50trillion. Or just look at GM and Fords medical coverege and what its costing them yearly. The US isnt a socialist nation. Price controls that other countries use will never fly in the US. Nor would making all medical professions state controlled.

Both of these things would have to happen in order for the US to have national healthcare. Neither one will ever happen.

The only other option is extremely high tax rates. Something that is even less likely to fly.

Extensive deregulation would be very useful as well. I posted that link in another thread in response to another of craig234's posts, he didn't bother responding.


Deregulation? You know what happens when things get deregulated? Safety deteriorates. Look at the US meat industry, steel industry in the 1900s. You want to take a step back 100 years don't you? How many unlisenced doctors will you be willing to see?

Most recently look at what happened to electricity costs when deregulated. Look at what happened to Montana Power and Light.

Only a complete idiot would deregulate health care.
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,275
965
136
Originally posted by: Hacp
Deregulation? You know what happens when things get deregulated? Safety deteriorates. Look at the US meat industry, steel industry in the 1900s. You want to take a step back 100 years don't you? How many unlisenced doctors will you be willing to see?

As usual, another strawman argument. I searched for the word "license" in the study, didn't find a single hit. If you even bothered to read the study, tort reform alone would significantly reduce the cost overhead.

By the way, most single-payer government healthcare services are protected from lawsuits by legislation, so they could not be subjected to the type of lawsuits US doctors go to great lengths to avoid (i.e. defensive medicine). That'd be more of a safety concern than any amount of US deregulation.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Link
Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

Supporters of universal coverage fear that people without health insurance will be denied the healthcare they need. Of course, all Americans already have access to at least emergency care. Hospitals are legally obligated to provide care regardless of ability to pay, and although physicians do not face the same legal requirements, we do not hear of many who are willing to deny treatment because a patient lacks insurance.

You may think it is self-evident that the uninsured may forgo preventive care or receive a lower quality of care. And yet, in reviewing all the academic literature on the subject, Helen Levy of the University of Michigan's Economic Research Initiative on the Uninsured, and David Meltzer of the University of Chicago, were unable to establish a "causal relationship" between health insurance and better health. Believe it or not, there is "no evidence," Levy and Meltzer wrote, that expanding insurance coverage is a cost-effective way to promote health. Similarly, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine last year found that, although far too many Americans were not receiving the appropriate standard of care, "health insurance status was largely unrelated to the quality of care."
I hate when the truth gets in the way of a good liberal idea.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: Hacp
Deregulation? You know what happens when things get deregulated? Safety deteriorates. Look at the US meat industry, steel industry in the 1900s. You want to take a step back 100 years don't you? How many unlisenced doctors will you be willing to see?

As usual, another strawman argument. I searched for the word "license" in the study, didn't find a single hit. If you even bothered to read the study, tort reform alone would significantly reduce the cost overhead.

By the way, most single-payer government healthcare services are protected from lawsuits by legislation, so they could not be subjected to the type of lawsuits US doctors go to great lengths to avoid (i.e. defensive medicine). That'd be more of a safety concern than any amount of US deregulation.

Aren't you arguing both sides there? How can it be better for everyone if "tort reform" (liability shields for incompetent health care companies) is implemented, but BAD if similar immunity exists for GOVERNMENT run health care? You can't have it both ways...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Link
Simply saying that people have health insurance is meaningless. Many countries provide universal insurance but deny critical procedures to patients who need them. Britain's Department of Health reported in 2006 that at any given time, nearly 900,000 Britons are waiting for admission to National Health Service hospitals, and shortages force the cancellation of more than 50,000 operations each year. In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment. In a 2005 ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court, Chief Justice Beverly McLachlin wrote that "access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare."

Supporters of universal coverage fear that people without health insurance will be denied the healthcare they need. Of course, all Americans already have access to at least emergency care. Hospitals are legally obligated to provide care regardless of ability to pay, and although physicians do not face the same legal requirements, we do not hear of many who are willing to deny treatment because a patient lacks insurance.

You may think it is self-evident that the uninsured may forgo preventive care or receive a lower quality of care. And yet, in reviewing all the academic literature on the subject, Helen Levy of the University of Michigan's Economic Research Initiative on the Uninsured, and David Meltzer of the University of Chicago, were unable to establish a "causal relationship" between health insurance and better health. Believe it or not, there is "no evidence," Levy and Meltzer wrote, that expanding insurance coverage is a cost-effective way to promote health. Similarly, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine last year found that, although far too many Americans were not receiving the appropriate standard of care, "health insurance status was largely unrelated to the quality of care."
I hate when the truth gets in the way of a good liberal idea.

The fact that some countries don't do it right does not mean it's impossible. So far I have yet to see an argument that "waiting lists" are fundamentally part of universal health care, any more than corruption is fundamentally a part of a government run police force. By your logic, I could argue that we should disband the police in the US since police in Mexico are so lousy.

And that study actually does a better job of making the universal health care point than it does of supporting your point. Rather than the problem just being the fact that people don't have insurance, it would appear that the problem is that even the health insurance that DOES exist is pretty lousy for a lot of people. So instead of government funding to provide health insurance for the uninsured, that study is essentially arguing that the government needs to do something about how insurance operates as well. In other words, not just government funded, but government run. If even the folks with free market health insurance aren't getting the care they need, that's a pretty good argument against free market health insurance.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: Hacp
Deregulation? You know what happens when things get deregulated? Safety deteriorates. Look at the US meat industry, steel industry in the 1900s. You want to take a step back 100 years don't you? How many unlisenced doctors will you be willing to see?

As usual, another strawman argument. I searched for the word "license" in the study, didn't find a single hit. If you even bothered to read the study, tort reform alone would significantly reduce the cost overhead.

By the way, most single-payer government healthcare services are protected from lawsuits by legislation, so they could not be subjected to the type of lawsuits US doctors go to great lengths to avoid (i.e. defensive medicine). That'd be more of a safety concern than any amount of US deregulation.

Licensure. Please search harder next time.

Please explain how deregulation will improve health care. Please explain how scams and mistreatment will be dealt with.