Yet another reason pensions (and other CBA's) don't work..........

[redgtxdi]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-short-12-3b-chrysler-2-62b-for-near-future-pension-funds.html

When THE !@#%!@ will this country realize that this collective bargaining agreement crap doesn't work??????

You CANNOT guarantee retirement income. You can 401K people to the old folk's home and help them along the way (matching, profit sharing, etc.). You can supplement SOME income w/ things like social security but you CANNOT continue this unsustainable (keyword: "unsustainable") habit of "entitlement"-driven job perks.

This SH!T HAS TO STOP!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TruePaige]

Look up Goldman Sach's retirement plans. I'd prefer many of those to pensions even. Combined with the higher income it is a no brainer.

The government needs incentives to retain top talent.

 

[Gardener]

My wife is the Executive VP of a Seattle Corporation with 50 employees. She is vested in her defined benefit company pension. She's not a union member. However her company has a legal responsibility to fulfill its obligations to her...and set aside a prescribed amount of money to fund the pension...and not use it as a company slush fund.

I'm a small business owner who maintains a 401k for my employees, which allows them to contribute monies which I match. I have a legal obligation fund their plans, keep these funds separate, and not co-mingle them with my general accounting.

You are against defined benefit pensions. Cool rant, but no substance.

 

[Hacp]

My wife is the Executive VP of a Seattle Corporation with 50 employees. She is vested in her defined benefit company pension. She's not a union member. However her company has a legal responsibility to fulfill its obligations to her...and set aside a prescribed amount of money to fund the pension...and not use it as a company slush fund.

I'm a small business owner who maintains a 401k for my employees, which allows them to contribute monies which I match. I have a legal obligation fund their plans, keep these funds separate, and not co-mingle them with my general accounting.

You are against defined benefit pensions. Cool rant, but no substance.

We're talking about the government here. Private employers can do whatever the hell they want.

 

[lupi]

We're talking about the government here. Private employers can do whatever the hell they want.

isn't the linked story about private employers.

 

[Hacp]

isn't the linked story about private employers.

No. The government owns 61% of GM. It is government owned.

 

[Jhhnn]

No. The government owns 61% of GM. It is government owned.

How lame. The pension liabilities were incurred *before* govt intervention.

None of this actually addresses pension funds that weren't a management sponsored scam going in, like the GM plan. When workers threatened to strike for more money, GM kept that from happening by promising to put money into workers' pension pockets instead of their wage pockets... The guys who made the promises were bonused into financial orbit and are long gone... they knew what they were doing...

One of pensions' biggest problems today is that the bought into AAA rated mortgage bonds that turned out to be crap, and stocks that were hugely overvalued, as well...

Again, the guys selling to them knew what they were doing, bet on that... bonused into financial orbit, as well...

 

[Hacp]

How lame. The pension liabilities were incurred *before* govt intervention.

None of this actually addresses pension funds that weren't a management sponsored scam going in, like the GM plan. When workers threatened to strike for more money, GM kept that from happening by promising to put money into workers' pension pockets instead of their wage pockets... The guys who made the promises were bonused into financial orbit and are long gone... they knew what they were doing...

One of pensions' biggest problems today is that the bought into AAA rated mortgage bonds that turned out to be crap, and stocks that were hugely overvalued, as well...

Again, the guys selling to them knew what they were doing, bet on that... bonused into financial orbit, as well...

You know, I don't really care what private companies do. What I do care about is government laws making it practically impossible for private companies to hire cheap labor. You have companies that want to fire all their employees and hire other people for cheaper, but you can't have that with unions and laws protecting them.

 

[IGBT]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-short-12-3b-chrysler-2-62b-for-near-future-pension-funds.html

When THE !@#%!@ will this country realize that this collective bargaining agreement crap doesn't work??????

You CANNOT guarantee retirement income. You can 401K people to the old folk's home and help them along the way (matching, profit sharing, etc.). You can supplement SOME income w/ things like social security but you CANNOT continue this unsustainable (keyword: "unsustainable") habit of "entitlement"-driven job perks.

This SH!T HAS TO STOP!!!!!!!!!!

but wait. we can guarantee endless public assistance to anyone who doesn't want to work or boarder jumpers. somehow all that is ok.

 

[Jhhnn]

You know, I don't really care what private companies do. What I do care about is government laws making it practically impossible for private companies to hire cheap labor. You have companies that want to fire all their employees and hire other people for cheaper, but you can't have that with unions and laws protecting them.

You ain't been around, have you?

I rather suspect you're pretty young, and the beneficiary of family money to take the attitudes that you do.

It's not as if the investor class hasn't done extremely well over the last 30 years, with the top 1% of federal income tax filers share of income having gone from <9% to > 23%, and their average tax rate going down from 34% to 23%... with the top .1% doing extremely well in both regards...

But people should work for less, so that the lootocracy can keep even more?

 

[Hacp]

You ain't been around, have you?

I rather suspect you're pretty young, and the beneficiary of family money to take the attitudes that you do.

It's not as if the investor class hasn't done extremely well over the last 30 years, with the top 1% of federal income tax filers share of income having gone from <9% to > 23%, and their average tax rate going down from 34% to 23%... with the top .1% doing extremely well in both regards...

But people should work for less, so that the lootocracy can keep even more?

Companies should hire whoever is willing to work for less. You have old fatcats sitting their lazy butts around making twice what a young person in his late teens,early 20s would be willing to work for.

 

[Nemesis 1]

There isn't a young man around that can do that old fat cats job better than he can if he is good at his job . young men need to dig ditches to learn what work really is . A young man can not replace a forty year old in a skilled labor market , That old guy will destroy them in productivity and have time to set around.

 

[cubby1223]

But people should work for less, so that the lootocracy can keep even more?

People should work for what the market dictates they should work for. If the job is of critical importance that the employer cannot afford to let the employee walk away, then he gets a raise. If the job is mindless labor that any bum off the street can perform, then the employer should be allowed to hire the bum, and not coddle the old fart because of union thugocracy (see I can make up words too )

 

[redgtxdi]

but wait. we can guarantee endless public assistance to anyone who doesn't want to work or boarder jumpers. somehow all that is ok.

I'll pretend you forgot to click on my sig to see where I stand on that matter as well.

This whole friggin' country is like putting money into a bank vault & having that bank vault lead directly into a wood-chipper.

My current rant is simply that of publicly sponsored, union-thug-headed, guaranteed-rate-of-return.....pensions......that are literally UNSUSTAINABLE!! (Based on today's GM article)

The gov't hasn't figured out the math on that one yet.

 

[ProfJohn]

You know, I don't really care what private companies do. What I do care about is government laws making it practically impossible for private companies to hire cheap labor. You have companies that want to fire all their employees and hire other people for cheaper, but you can't have that with unions and laws protecting them.

I take you have never actually tried to run a business of any kind??

I had a 20 year old with very little experience and who made less than $8 an hour.

I replaced her with someone with 16 years experience in the company and who makes $6 more per hour.

The results are astounding. The more experienced worker gets more done, produces higher quality work, makes less mistakes and requires far less supervision or training.

The economic results are provable too.

I have spent about $2000 more in labor this year than budgeted, but I have produced about $5000 in savings on controllable expenses. BTW all of this is real world experience that can be documented.


About the only time it makes sense to eliminate high paid employees and replace them with lower paid ones in in instances where the pay rates far exceed their actual value, such as many union auto plants. That is the main reason that many of our unionized industries have failed or are failing now. It makes no economic sense to pay someone $20 an hour to sweep the floor or to institute work rules that make require you to call an electrician to replace a light bulb.

 

[Hacp]

I take you have never actually tried to run a business of any kind??

I had a 20 year old with very little experience and who made less than $8 an hour.

I replaced her with someone with 16 years experience in the company and who makes $6 more per hour.

The results are astounding. The more experienced worker gets more done, produces higher quality work, makes less mistakes and requires far less supervision or training.

The economic results are provable too.

I have spent about $2000 more in labor this year than budgeted, but I have produced about $5000 in savings on controllable expenses. BTW all of this is real world experience that can be documented.


About the only time it makes sense to eliminate high paid employees and replace them with lower paid ones in in instances where the pay rates far exceed their actual value, such as many union auto plants. That is the main reason that many of our unionized industries have failed or are failing now. It makes no economic sense to pay someone $20 an hour to sweep the floor or to institute work rules that make require you to call an electrician to replace a light bulb.

And you have no clue about the point of my post? If the more experienced employee can hold his own, he does not need price floors and laws and unions to keep his job. The employer will see his value to the business and pay the market rate for someone of his skill.

 

[Throckmorton]

And you have no clue about the point of my post? If the more experienced employee can hold his own, he does not need price floors and laws and unions to keep his job. The employer will see his value to the business and pay the market rate for someone of his skill.

The market rate is what the union negotiates on the free market.

 

[gingermeggs]

And you have no clue about the point of my post? If the more experienced employee can hold his own, he does not need price floors and laws and unions to keep his job. The employer will see his value to the business and pay the market rate for someone of his skill.

Ohh..........padawan!
You know little about executive greed' even though your daddy is one.
Maybe you could sidewind his mistress for some anal action!
Profit is an addiction which is more destructive then bottom end, wage rises ever have been.
What happens when your worthless minions can't afford a car?
Let alone insure it!
What happens to your bigassed economy then champ'o'?
Fuck me you cunts don't value anything about profit, what about living in a relatively safer community, does that just spring out of the ground or is it a reflection of quality of life.
I'd love to see you shit your pants with a gun jammed in your mouth, for some ended up a lowlifes crack habit............that would make my year complete, better still that fucker pulls the trigger.
* headline- yuppy wanna be' is splatted in the gutter, like the a-moral motherfucker that he is! how bout your girlfriend or sister gets raped? is that a better idea?
how bout ure granmah?
Lock n load mother fucker!
because it's coming, I can smell that sob' coming for your phat lilly white arse!

 

[gingermeggs]

I take you have never actually tried to run a business of any kind??

I had a 20 year old with very little experience and who made less than $8 an hour.

I replaced her with someone with 16 years experience in the company and who makes $6 more per hour.

The results are astounding. The more experienced worker gets more done, produces higher quality work, makes less mistakes and requires far less supervision or training.

The economic results are provable too.

I have spent about $2000 more in labor this year than budgeted, but I have produced about $5000 in savings on controllable expenses. BTW all of this is real world experience that can be documented.


About the only time it makes sense to eliminate high paid employees and replace them with lower paid ones in in instances where the pay rates far exceed their actual value, such as many union auto plants. That is the main reason that many of our unionized industries have failed or are failing now. It makes no economic sense to pay someone $20 an hour to sweep the floor or to institute work rules that make require you to call an electrician to replace a light bulb.

Unions never stopped GMC coming up with a better design in an automobile, but if that gets you rocks off! it's all good, the company is down the toilet BECAUSE OF IT'S LACK OF INNOVATION, COMPLACENCY AND STAGNANT EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT, wanna be goldman sach's'
get a Honda or toyota, non-union man- mines a ford!
is your car a BMW? mien fuhrer! or is it a saab, because ure granpapa was gassed in Auschwitz?
Fuck me! you pay a 40year old $14/hr ffcs, you are as fucked as this kid, you are hanging the shit on!
I hope they nuke you cunts....really I mean that.
Have a nice day, sir.

 

[gingermeggs]

The market rate is what the union negotiates on the free market.

There is no such thing!
'He' who has the money, has the power to do anything, until people get the shits with the idea. Watch em all run off to monte carlo' when they does.
Check out a little thing called "capital victories" over the last 20 years, hard data to find indeed.
adios amigos'

 

[nonlnear]

Ohh..........padawan!
You know little about executive greed' even though your daddy is one.
Maybe you could sidewind his mistress for some anal action!
Profit is an addiction which is more destructive then bottom end, wage rises ever have been.
What happens when your worthless minions can't afford a car?
Let alone insure it!
What happens to your bigassed economy then champ'o'?
Fuck me you cunts don't value anything about profit, what about living in a relatively safer community, does that just spring out of the ground or is it a reflection of quality of life.
I'd love to see you shit your pants with a gun jammed in your mouth, for some ended up a lowlifes crack habit............that would make my year complete, better still that fucker pulls the trigger.
* headline- yuppy wanna be' is splatted in the gutter, like the a-moral motherfucker that he is! how bout your girlfriend or sister gets raped? is that a better idea?
how bout ure granmah?
Lock n load mother fucker!
because it's coming, I can smell that sob' coming for your phat lilly white arse!

Unions never stopped GMC coming up with a better design in an automobile, but if that gets you rocks off! it's all good, the company is down the toilet BECAUSE OF IT'S LACK OF INNOVATION, COMPLACENCY AND STAGNANT EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT, wanna be goldman sach's'
get a Honda or toyota, non-union man- mines a ford!
is your car a BMW? mien fuhrer! or is it a saab, because ure granpapa was gassed in Auschwitz?
Fuck me! you pay a 40year old $14/hr ffcs, you are as fucked as this kid, you are hanging the shit on!
I hope they nuke you cunts....really I mean that.
Have a nice day, sir.

Sing it with me folks:

There's a calm surrender to the rush of day
When the heat of the rolling world can be turned away
An enchanted moment, and it sees me through
It's enough for this restless warrior just to be with you

And can you feel the love tonight
It is where we are
It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer
That we got this far
And can you feel the love tonight
How it's laid to rest
It's enough to make kings and vagabonds
Believe the very best

There's a time for everyone if they only learn
That the twisting kaleidoscope moves us all in turn
There's a rhyme and reason to the wild outdoors
When the heart of this star-crossed voyager beats in time with yours

And can you feel the love tonight
It is where we are
It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer
That we got this far
And can you feel the love tonight
How it's laid to rest
It's enough to make kings and vagabonds
Believe the very best

 

[Zstream]

Wow that guy needs to be banned ASAP.

 

[nonlnear]

Wow that guy needs to be banned ASAP.

I disagree. If evil people are not allowed to display their evil openly, then how will the less perceptive among us ever know they are evil? The purpose of civil discourse is not to allow everyone to pretend to be decent, but to let the vicious hateful ones expose themselves for what they truly are, for that is what they desire to do. People like gingermeggs are only able to appear sane because society plays along with the pretense that their few moments of true honesty are an aberration, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[actuarial]

My current rant is simply that of publicly sponsored, union-thug-headed, guaranteed-rate-of-return.....pensions......that are literally UNSUSTAINABLE!! (Based on today's GM article)

The gov't hasn't figured out the math on that one yet.

Your current rant doesn't make sense because the pension agreements were not made by the government. When the government decided to buy GM they also bought its obligations, which included pension promises.

How would this sound as a worker:
This year you'll get $X in salary and $Y in pension when you retire.
....10 years later.....
Oh LOL you don't actually get that $Y in pension because the government bought the company.

That would be going back on a contract without any way for the employee to seek recourse. How would you like it if at the end of the year your employer went into you bank account and took back 10% of your pay? Actually, it's more like at the end of 20 years going back and taking out 2 years pay. That's what you're implying should be done to these workers.

 

[Hacp]

The market rate is what the union negotiates on the free market.

No the union negotiates under the strongarm of the government. Take away all those laws regulating unions and THEN there will be a market rate.