(Yet) a(nother) reason not to buy iPods...

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: OS
everyone in this thread, hell on this forum, uses a computer that most likely has a foxconn part in it, like already mentioned atleast connectors and stuff. If not, certainly each and every computer has parts that were made in china. And pretty much all of the manufacturing companies in china employ workers with conditions as mentioned.

Not only that, i'm sure all the competing mp3 players are built by some chinese electronics contract manufacturer, and if you're familiar with the biz, that whole industry is inbred as hell. If you buy any sort of electronics, you're supporting that work environment in one way or another.

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

But there are countless people who avoid buying Nikes or from Wal-Mart primarily because of the conditions that their products were made in. And as jagec pointed out earlier, this completely goes against the "core principles" of Apple and all that they stand for.

 

[kami333]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Paulson
No major company is "good"... They're all evil trying to get money money money.

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay. He gave them a contract that foxconn probably couldn't afford and rather than them losing it to someone else they got into some unrealistic goal and had to put so many people into such crappy lifestyles.

The government contracts Haliburton, are they a good company? Hell no! But does that mean our Government is absolutely evil (well they probably are but by everyone else's standards) no!

While I see your point, I still would say that apple is partly guilty. If you're contracting a job to someone, you need to know and accept the business practices of that someone. '

Yeah, we all "benefit" from these types of agreements via cheaper prices, but that doesn't necessarily make it right, regardless of how badly our cognitive dissonance says it should be.

But Apple is far from being the only company guilty of that.

I would bet that you own many products built in similar conditions.

Possibly, yes. But as I find out about the various business practices of the contractors, I cease buying from the companies. I don't pretend to know everything about every company out there; but if I hear about something with which I don't agree, I choose not to support the company in question. If it ends up costing me more money, so be it.

So idealistic...

 

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: Paulson
No major company is "good"... They're all evil trying to get money money money.

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay. He gave them a contract that foxconn probably couldn't afford and rather than them losing it to someone else they got into some unrealistic goal and had to put so many people into such crappy lifestyles.

The government contracts Haliburton, are they a good company? Hell no! But does that mean our Government is absolutely evil (well they probably are but by everyone else's standards) no!

No one is saying Apple is absolutely evil, but to deny that Steve Jobs is responsible for the actions of foxconn would either be ignorant or blindly going along with the cult that is the followers of Steve Jobs. Either he is completely ignorant of the conditions in which his iPods are made, or completely apathetic of them so long as his profit margins on the ipods he sells are maximized.

If people are going to complain about Wal-Mart and whomever for following the same practices, they certainly cannot excuse Apple, and for that matter every other company that exhibits these practices as well.

Your comparison to Halliburton was absolutely terrible btw, if you actually know the details and implications that lead on to the deal.

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Paulson
No major company is "good"... They're all evil trying to get money money money.

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay. He gave them a contract that foxconn probably couldn't afford and rather than them losing it to someone else they got into some unrealistic goal and had to put so many people into such crappy lifestyles.

The government contracts Haliburton, are they a good company? Hell no! But does that mean our Government is absolutely evil (well they probably are but by everyone else's standards) no!

While I see your point, I still would say that apple is partly guilty. If you're contracting a job to someone, you need to know and accept the business practices of that someone. '

Yeah, we all "benefit" from these types of agreements via cheaper prices, but that doesn't necessarily make it right, regardless of how badly our cognitive dissonance says it should be.

But Apple is far from being the only company guilty of that.

I would bet that you own many products built in similar conditions.

Possibly, yes. But as I find out about the various business practices of the contractors, I cease buying from the companies. I don't pretend to know everything about every company out there; but if I hear about something with which I don't agree, I choose not to support the company in question. If it ends up costing me more money, so be it.

So idealistic...

Idealistic, yes. But continually striving to be better is an improvement in my book over simply accepting things as they are because "that's just how the world works."

 

[Paulson]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: OS
everyone in this thread, hell on this forum, uses a computer that most likely has a foxconn part in it, like already mentioned atleast connectors and stuff. If not, certainly each and every computer has parts that were made in china. And pretty much all of the manufacturing companies in china employ workers with conditions as mentioned.

Not only that, i'm sure all the competing mp3 players are built by some chinese electronics contract manufacturer, and if you're familiar with the biz, that whole industry is inbred as hell. If you buy any sort of electronics, you're supporting that work environment in one way or another.

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

But there are countless people who avoid buying Nikes or from Wal-Mart primarily because of the conditions that their products were made in. And as jagec pointed out earlier, this completely goes against the "core principles" of Apple and all that they stand for.

Look at how bad we bitch about gas going up. Now multiply that towards everything that comes out of china for cheap. Everybody would be whining, everybody would be pissing and moaning.

Lets face it, if china can't provide the cheap labor, some other country where people can't find work would take it on. Having a place to live and some money is better than living like a caveman.

Also, what happens the next time you buy a product and you later on find out it's got a foxconn product in it? Are you going to return it? Are you going to do extensive research to find out what the innards of parts have so you don't do anymore chinese harm?

You're guilty of not finishing a simple spider story, lets leave the poor chinese people alone, I mean they already have enough grief, and then you have to drag them into this debate. I bet they would have killed the spider and banged the chick for a lot less and got the job done.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: OS
everyone in this thread, hell on this forum, uses a computer that most likely has a foxconn part in it, like already mentioned atleast connectors and stuff. If not, certainly each and every computer has parts that were made in china. And pretty much all of the manufacturing companies in china employ workers with conditions as mentioned.

Not only that, i'm sure all the competing mp3 players are built by some chinese electronics contract manufacturer, and if you're familiar with the biz, that whole industry is inbred as hell. If you buy any sort of electronics, you're supporting that work environment in one way or another.

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

But there are countless people who avoid buying Nikes or from Wal-Mart primarily because of the conditions that their products were made in. And as jagec pointed out earlier, this completely goes against the "core principles" of Apple and all that they stand for.

those are mostly stupid ass boycotts. The reason people work there at all is it's the best they can find where they are. People who cry about this have no idea how desolate and broke the people in those countries are.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Apple core values or whatever. Eitherway it's still ultimately marketing. They still have to sell these products inexpensively, in quantity to stay afloat.

If they built ipods in the US, in Cupertino, CA (where apple is based), with employees at living wages there, in a nice clean pretty landscaped OSHA approved, EPA certified manufacturing campus complete with cafeteria, fitness center, ergonomics office, etc., those ipods would suddenly cost something like $5,000 a piece.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: kami333

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Whisper

Originally posted by: Paulson
No major company is "good"... They're all evil trying to get money money money.

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay. He gave them a contract that foxconn probably couldn't afford and rather than them losing it to someone else they got into some unrealistic goal and had to put so many people into such crappy lifestyles.

The government contracts Haliburton, are they a good company? Hell no! But does that mean our Government is absolutely evil (well they probably are but by everyone else's standards) no!

While I see your point, I still would say that apple is partly guilty. If you're contracting a job to someone, you need to know and accept the business practices of that someone. '

Yeah, we all "benefit" from these types of agreements via cheaper prices, but that doesn't necessarily make it right, regardless of how badly our cognitive dissonance says it should be.

But Apple is far from being the only company guilty of that.

I would bet that you own many products built in similar conditions.

Possibly, yes. But as I find out about the various business practices of the contractors, I cease buying from the companies. I don't pretend to know everything about every company out there; but if I hear about something with which I don't agree, I choose not to support the company in question. If it ends up costing me more money, so be it.

So idealistic...

Idealistic, yes. But continually striving to be better is an improvement in my book over simply accepting things as they are because "that's just how the world works."

If thats how you truly think, then you might want to move to the middle of nowhere and live off the land.

Or kill yourself. 😛

 

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: PaulsonYou're guilty of not finishing a simple spider story, lets leave the poor chinese people alone, I mean they already have enough grief, and then you have to drag them into this debate. I bet they would have killed the spider and banged the chick for a lot less and got the job done.

Hmm, if I were you I'd save myself the embarassment and not try to ever be witty and/or insightful here again. Between this and your comment on Halliburton, I don't know..

Stick to fixing ipods.

 

[Paulson]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: Paulson
No major company is "good"... They're all evil trying to get money money money.

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay. He gave them a contract that foxconn probably couldn't afford and rather than them losing it to someone else they got into some unrealistic goal and had to put so many people into such crappy lifestyles.

The government contracts Haliburton, are they a good company? Hell no! But does that mean our Government is absolutely evil (well they probably are but by everyone else's standards) no!

No one is saying Apple is absolutely evil, but to deny that Steve Jobs is responsible for the actions of foxconn would either be ignorant or blindly going along with the cult that is the followers of Steve Jobs. Either he is completely ignorant of the conditions in which his iPods are made, or completely apathetic of them so long as his profit margins on the ipods he sells are maximized.

If people are going to complain about Wal-Mart and whomever for following the same practices, they certainly cannot excuse Apple, and for that matter every other company that exhibits these practices as well.

Your comparison to Halliburton was absolutely terrible btw, if you actually know the details and implications that lead on to the deal.

Eh, I'm no apple fanboy but I obviously have some comprehension that the ipods I've bought came from china (when I orded them Fedex said shanghai, so I obviously knew what was going down.

Like I said before, Apple is just another evil company that's doing a great job making money. Does Bill Gates give us all his money? No. Should Apple give Chinese works all their money? No. In fact if Apple charged anymore for their iPods I doubt people would buy them, which is why if they didn't do things they way they are now, people would be buying another mp3 player built in some chinese sweatshop getting $20 a month living in huts.

Well even if the Halliburton comparison was horrible, I don't give a sh!t. Everybody is evil, we just put on a good game face. Survival of the fittest you know.

 

[Paulson]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: PaulsonYou're guilty of not finishing a simple spider story, lets leave the poor chinese people alone, I mean they already have enough grief, and then you have to drag them into this debate. I bet they would have killed the spider and banged the chick for a lot less and got the job done.

Hmm, if I were you I'd save myself the embarassment and not try to ever be witty and/or insightful here again. Between this and your comment on Halliburton, I don't know..

Stick to fixing ipods.

And you be sure to stick to storytelling. I can't wait until the climax!

 

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: PaulsonEh, I'm no apple fanboy but I obviously have some comprehension that the ipods I've bought came from china (when I orded them Fedex said shanghai, so I obviously knew what was going down.

Like I said before, Apple is just another evil company that's doing a great job making money. Does Bill Gates give us all his money? No. Should Apple give Chinese works all their money? No. In fact if Apple charged anymore for their iPods I doubt people would buy them, which is why if they didn't do things they way they are now, people would be buying another mp3 player built in some chinese sweatshop getting $20 a month living in huts.

Well even if the Halliburton comparison was horrible, I don't give a sh!t. Everybody is evil, we just put on a good game face. Survival of the fittest you know.

I apologize for my assumptions then, but this just seemed a bit fanboi-ish to me..

Apple contracts foxconn, so what? It's not like Steve Jobs put a gun to the CEO's head of Foxconn and told him to put all those chinese people in sh!tty housing with piss poor pay.

Good to see that you acknowledge Apple as another evil company though, a lot of people would be unable to see that.

Next up, Google 🙂

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: OS
everyone in this thread, hell on this forum, uses a computer that most likely has a foxconn part in it, like already mentioned atleast connectors and stuff. If not, certainly each and every computer has parts that were made in china. And pretty much all of the manufacturing companies in china employ workers with conditions as mentioned.

Not only that, i'm sure all the competing mp3 players are built by some chinese electronics contract manufacturer, and if you're familiar with the biz, that whole industry is inbred as hell. If you buy any sort of electronics, you're supporting that work environment in one way or another.

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

But there are countless people who avoid buying Nikes or from Wal-Mart primarily because of the conditions that their products were made in. And as jagec pointed out earlier, this completely goes against the "core principles" of Apple and all that they stand for.

What are the core principles of Apple?

I can't imagine any company like Apple strives to better the lives of the workers in China. They are happy to have their proucts built for less $$$...just like we are happy to buy them for less $$$ (don't spout this "well iPods aren't cheap" business).

More companies than you or I can imagine are "guilty" of this...so why all of the fuss about Apple?

Even then...those people chose to work there, right? Who is keeping them from leaving?

Edit: From the article, "The paper says rent and living costs eat up about half the worker's salaries." Wow, the rent/cost of living is fvcking low over there (at least in that area).

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: OS

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

I disagree. Urban poor is very different than rural poor, and, frankly, is MUCH better.



My credentials...sorry about the blurriness.

 

[Paulson]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: OS
everyone in this thread, hell on this forum, uses a computer that most likely has a foxconn part in it, like already mentioned atleast connectors and stuff. If not, certainly each and every computer has parts that were made in china. And pretty much all of the manufacturing companies in china employ workers with conditions as mentioned.

Not only that, i'm sure all the competing mp3 players are built by some chinese electronics contract manufacturer, and if you're familiar with the biz, that whole industry is inbred as hell. If you buy any sort of electronics, you're supporting that work environment in one way or another.

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

But there are countless people who avoid buying Nikes or from Wal-Mart primarily because of the conditions that their products were made in. And as jagec pointed out earlier, this completely goes against the "core principles" of Apple and all that they stand for.

What are the core principles of Apple?

I can't imagine any company like Apple strives to better the lives of the workers in China. They are happy to have their proucts built for less $$$...just like we are happy to buy them for less $$$ (don't spout this "well iPods aren't cheap" business).

More companies than you or I can imagine are "guilty" of this...so why all of the fuss about Apple?

Even then...those people chose to work there, right? Who is keeping them from leaving?

You have to remember that there is a big screen with HAL watching all these people, and when HAL doesn't see something he likes, HAL takes care of it. It's usually pretty messy.

😛

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: OS

On top of that, by chinese standards, those conditions may not be considered particularly abusive. The people in china with the worst lifestyles are probably country farmers, who basically don't have running water, power, the poorest of the poor in the world. The people working in those factories often come from the country looking for any work at all. They might actually be worse off if people stopped buying ipods.

I disagree. Urban poor is very different than rural poor, and, frankly, is MUCH better.

My credentials...sorry about the blurriness.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The fact is the chinese in the country generally think their lives are sh*tty enough to leave and go to the city to find work. There are no trends on the chinese leaving the city back to the country, which says enough to me.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Whisper
Idealistic, yes. But continually striving to be better is an improvement in my book over simply accepting things as they are because "that's just how the world works."

If thats how you truly think, then you might want to move to the middle of nowhere and live off the land.

Or kill yourself. 😛

There IS a middle ground between accepting everything just the way it is, or rejecting everything that doesn't conform to your standards. Call it practical idealism...you know, change what you can, accept what you can't? Of course, how far you go depends on how much energy you have...but when I have the option of buying a dozen eggs, or spending ten cents more to buy a dozen cage-free, vegetarian-fed eggs, it's hard to justify getting the cheaper stuff when you know the big picture.
I know, lame example...but you get my point.

Originally posted by: Paulson
You have to remember that there is a big screen with HAL watching all these people, and when HAL doesn't see something he likes, HAL takes care of it. It's usually pretty messy.

😛

LOL, someone should photoshop this commercial so that the workers are assembling ipods 😛

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: OS

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The fact is the chinese in the country generally think their lives are sh*tty enough to leave and go to the city to find work. There are no trends on the chinese leaving the city back to the country, which says enough to me.

Everyone thinks the city is bright and shiny and full of jobs, but most of them end up on the street....country people tend to have a really idealized picture of life in the city.

At least, if China is anything like Ecuador.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: OS

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The fact is the chinese in the country generally think their lives are sh*tty enough to leave and go to the city to find work. There are no trends on the chinese leaving the city back to the country, which says enough to me.

Everyone thinks the city is bright and shiny and full of jobs, but most of them end up on the street....country people tend to have a really idealized picture of life in the city.

At least, if China is anything like Ecuador.

If that were the case, there would be some significant, visible reverse flight away from the city, but there is no trend like that at all. But there are countless articles about rural flight in china, migration that numbers in the millions into the cities.

On a side note, chinese authorities don't allow foreigners into rural areas. They don't want the outside world to see what kind of sh*thole half their country is.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: OS
If that were the case, there would be some significant, visible reverse flight away from the city, but there is no trend like that at all. But there are countless articles about rural flight in china, migration that numbers in the millions into the cities.

On a side note, chinese authorities don't allow foreigners into rural areas. They don't want the outside world to see what kind of sh*thole half their country is.

I think you're seeing things in too simplistic a light. There's more to it than simple statistics. When someone in the country gets the idea to go to the city, they save up all their money, say goodbye to everyone, maybe even promise to send back all that fancy city stuff everyone hears about. Once they're in the city, it's MUCH more expensive than they thought. The lucky ones shack up with a few other people in a tiny, filthy apartment in the middle of nowhere, the unlucky ones can't afford that and end up on the street. They'll look for work, and either not find it, or end up working a crap job (and I mean, orders of magnitude worse than anything in THIS country) for long hours for almost no pay. They basically get trapped...not enough money to go back home (not to mention the crushing blow that would deal to your ego and everyone in the community. It's too shameful to consider capitulating, for some.), and you can't slow down for a moment or you'll get run over. Since they live in cheap, high-crime areas, chances are they'll get robbed occasionally, losing what little money they might have started to save. A lot of them turn to alcohol, and abusive relationships are omnipresent.

Maybe some of them even manage to convince themselves that they're better off in the city. Certainly their folks back in the country think so. But it's a false illusion. The country is hard work, but it's much more free. The only people who actually benefit from moving to the city are the extremely ambitious, or the lucky.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: OS
If that were the case, there would be some significant, visible reverse flight away from the city, but there is no trend like that at all. But there are countless articles about rural flight in china, migration that numbers in the millions into the cities.

On a side note, chinese authorities don't allow foreigners into rural areas. They don't want the outside world to see what kind of sh*thole half their country is.

I think you're seeing things in too simplistic a light. There's more to it than simple statistics. When someone in the country gets the idea to go to the city, they save up all their money, say goodbye to everyone, maybe even promise to send back all that fancy city stuff everyone hears about. Once they're in the city, it's MUCH more expensive than they thought. The lucky ones shack up with a few other people in a tiny, filthy apartment in the middle of nowhere, the unlucky ones can't afford that and end up on the street. They'll look for work, and either not find it, or end up working a crap job (and I mean, orders of magnitude worse than anything in THIS country) for long hours for almost no pay. They basically get trapped...not enough money to go back home (not to mention the crushing blow that would deal to your ego and everyone in the community. It's too shameful to consider capitulating, for some.), and you can't slow down for a moment or you'll get run over. Since they live in cheap, high-crime areas, chances are they'll get robbed occasionally, losing what little money they might have started to save. A lot of them turn to alcohol, and abusive relationships are omnipresent.

Maybe some of them even manage to convince themselves that they're better off in the city. Certainly their folks back in the country probably think so. But it's a false illusion. The country is hard work, but it's much more free. The only people who actually benefit from moving to the city are the extremely ambitious, or the lucky.

Of course it's oversimplified, this is a subject one could spend their whole life researching. They never had easy lives either way.

I'm just saying this implication that buying ipods somehow enslaves the chinese has no weight either.

 

[0roo0roo]

there was a documentary on the torrents a while back on nokia and its inspectors going to its chinese factories. the conditons were pretty sh*tty and nokia has generally high standards. its just the norm. dormitorys and rules against visitors and all that. but ask yourself why people subject themselves to this? like the mexican going over desert and working sh*t jobs, its better pay than they could get otherwise.

 

[loup garou]

Yes, of course almost every consumer electronic device we buy today was either made in, or have parts made in factories like these.

The difference is, not every consumer electronics manufacturer has used a civl rights leader as a marketing tool previously.

 

[JDrake]

:thumbsup:

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Whisper
Idealistic, yes. But continually striving to be better is an improvement in my book over simply accepting things as they are because "that's just how the world works."

If thats how you truly think, then you might want to move to the middle of nowhere and live off the land.

Or kill yourself. 😛

There IS a middle ground between accepting everything just the way it is, or rejecting everything that doesn't conform to your standards. Call it practical idealism...you know, change what you can, accept what you can't? Of course, how far you go depends on how much energy you have...but when I have the option of buying a dozen eggs, or spending ten cents more to buy a dozen cage-free, vegetarian-fed eggs, it's hard to justify getting the cheaper stuff when you know the big picture.
I know, lame example...but you get my point.

Originally posted by: Paulson
You have to remember that there is a big screen with HAL watching all these people, and when HAL doesn't see something he likes, HAL takes care of it. It's usually pretty messy.

😛

LOL, someone should photoshop this commercial so that the workers are assembling ipods 😛

Sure, there is a middle ground, but its still compromise.

In the end..it is hardly a blip on the radar. Thats all I am saying.

I get your point though.