YAYAGT - Pick amongst these home defense shotguns

[FDF12389]

Speaking of which a shotgun has something going for it an AR doesn't have. Especially apump shotgun. The sound of a pump shotgun racking a round is usually unmistakable and has in the past been proven enough of a deterrent to make a would be burglar or home invader flee.

Penetration? Yah for shots actually fired unless you change the loadout of a shotgun. Risk of bird shot or sand bags penetrating anything is ridiculously lower than anything an AR will fire. Assuming shots need to be fired. Again AR15 doesn't have a distinctive sound to make home invaders flee like a shotfun which means a shotgun user may never need to fire a shot in the first place.

Yayyyyyy for "Internet" Knowledge.

I will have to seriously question the amount of general weapons experience you have if you think cycling the action of a pump vs the action of an AR has any significant decibel variation, esp given the similar cartridge lengths.

Furthermore both sounds are very distinctive, one no more so than another.

 

[boomhower]

I have an 11-87 at work and they are very reliable. They aren't taken care of, hardly ever cleaned, and just generally abused. Any kind of failure is rare at best. The SPX is a nice gun as well and I have an itch to get one myself.

AR vs Shotgun Both are fine. Also depending on your house set-up bird shot is fine. Spend some time with a trauma specialist to find out just how devastating bird shot is, it's just the distance is limited. Use what you are more comfortable with. Raking a shotgun as a deterrent is retarded, why are you going to give away you location?

If you are serious in using your gun for HD invest in a weapon mounted light and think about getting some good electronic ear protection that doesn't limit your hearing much and still offers protection against the shot. Touch of and AR round indoors and your going to suffer hearing loss. If your state allows look into a suppressor for an AR if you go that route.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

No, thats actually true. Short stroking is a real problem under stress.

Well considering it was Scniederguy that made the original comment I can understand that "short stroking" could be a problem :biggrin:


And I suppose for those that have little to no experience firing a pump, short stroking could be more likely than an auto jam. But even in that case the remedy would be to hit the release and recyle the pump and your back in business. Where in the case of an auto jamming your screwed.


And I also like the pump because as has been stated earlier in the thread the unmistakable intimidating sound of racking the pump and chambering a round in a 12ga is often enough to scare away an intruder without ever firing a shot. Kinda like a rattlers rattle it says your in the wrong place buster and you better get movin:biggrin:

 

[HumblePie]

Against multiple attackers 5-8 rounds is not sufficient.

Uhh... in the very rare cases that there are more than 5-8 attackers invadinga house, firing more than a few times is usually still enough to deter almost all invaders. Home invaders come in because they feel the person they are coming after is defenseless in the first place. Besides if you are being invaded by multiple invaders at once that are NOT for some reason scared by a few shotgun rounds being fired then an AR 15 is NOT going to stop them all either. A single person alone defending his house against multiple armed assailants who are not scared by a man firing back is not going to be able to defend his home in that case. The only cases where you aren't going to scared them off is if they are cops or swat. In which case the difference between a shotgun and an AR 15 is now moot as a person being invaded by cops has bigger problems.

As many as it takes. There's no such thing as a guaranteed one shot kill.

Who said anything about KILLING being effective home defense you dimwit. Home defense doesn't rely on killing invaders. Again, as I posted above to Malak, home defense is a STRATEGY. Alarms don't kill invaders, locks don't kill invaders, and bars on windows don't either. The point to home defense is to deter invaders long before you even need to fire a shot in the first place. This is a stupid point to make on your part.

Shorter = easier to maneuver. Heavier guns are not more stable and easier to aim, they just make your arms tired. Especially for women.

You are incorrect here. Shotguns, by the way, can be MUCH shorter than an AR15 unless you practically remove the barrel which reduces any recoil "advantage" an AR 15 had over a shotgun. Heavier guns ARE much more stable and leverage towards a given area. This is why NO ONE fires a pistol in real life one handed and hopes to hit anything with it. Pistols are too light to be accurate with one hand and require two to be more accurate. Heavier guns make it so your muscles are "fidgeting" while you are in a stressful situation. Most people hear an invader in their house and their adrenalin soars through the roof with fear and anxiety. It's natural. Having to worry about being accurate with a gun at close range is the last thing they are worried about. So a shotgun is much more accurate at close quarters than an AR 15. Easier to wield, and hits a bigger area. Plain and simple.

As for weight making you tired, how long do expect a person defending their home to be holding a gun? It's not like a warzone where they'll have it at ready for hours on end. Damn that was a pointless argument you made there.

Good luck using bird shot or sandbags to actually, you know, stop (ie kill) someone that is trying to kill you. Bird shot is NOT lethal enough to use in an HD gun.

AGAIN the point of home defense is not about being lethal. It's about DEFENSE. Which means to make the attacker stop. Sometimes that means killing them, but it is rare it will ever need to resort to that level. If for some reason your alarm didn't stop them, the locks on your door didn't stop them, the motion lights didn't stop them, the sound of your shotgun racking a round didn't stop them, and you firing a shot in their face with bird shot (which is lethal if not immediately so) didn't stop them, then you have bigger problems. An AR 15 isn't going to fair any better by then either. Also the first round you load with bird or sand, and the next you load with someone much more lethal in a shotgun. The point is to DETER the invader in defense away. Yes sometimes that means killing them. 99.9999999999% of the time it does not.

Racking a shotgun gives away your position. If you want to give the intruder a warning shout "I have a gun". Racking a shotgun is not going to make someone magically shit the pants and run away.

Dude you are full of it. Majority of home invaders only invade because they believe their victims to be helpless. By racking a shotgun you let them know that you are not. It may give away your position, but their position shortly after hearing it will one of running the fuck away.

Red DOT and light. So, you know, you can actually aim in the dark? Red dots are quicker than ironsights.

They're easier to mount on ARs.

Talking about giving your position away with one statement and then make this. A light is going to give your position away faster than sound which can echo and bounce off walls in a house which may not actually give your position away. Also you can mount those things on any shotgun as well if you desire. Not that they are needed for a shotgun. And no, they are not easier to mount on AR's compared to shotguns. For some shotguns they are easier to mount, but it depends on the shotgun you get.

Shotguns with buckshot have a effective range of about 30 yards. I'd rather have the extra range and accuracy and not need it than not have it and need it.

Who the hell has a room in their house or hallway over 30 yards???? Where not talking about getting up on a bell tower and taking people out with a gun. In which case an AR 15 is much more suitable for that. We are talking about DEFENDING A HOME. The average room of a house is 3-5 yards long. Crimeny. You don't need to shoot any further than that.

Now if you have rooms in your house over 30 yards long you probably are living in a really big mansion. If you have tons of people invading that, then you might want to consider investing in GUARDS with guns at that point instead of trying to defend your home by yourself.

Your arguments boil down to "I only need 1 round and the sound of my fuddtastic pump shotgun racking for HD so the gun that is obviously superior sux lol"

Uh no. Your entire set of arguments of why an AR 15 is stupid as I've plainly pointed out. Anyone with logic can see that as well. Anything further from you is pure trolling.



I think you are living in some la la fantasy land where you think zombies are real and are actually about to invade your home tonight. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and state that if zombies ever did invade your house than an AR 15 might be better than a shotgun. But in reality you are full of it.

 

[nick1985]

HumblePie, by and large you are incorrect and your attempts to refute schneiderguy are not good

 

[FDF12389]

Dude you are full of it. Majority of home invaders only invade because they believe their victims to be helpless. By racking a shotgun you let them know that you are not. It may give away your position, but their position shortly after hearing it will one of running the fuck away.

Releasing the slide of an AR15 does the EXACT same thing.

You guys are over thinking this. I defend one castle with a S&W bodyguard .380. I Have other guns in the house, but this is the only one I have accessible for immediate defense if I need it.

Both an AR-15 or a shotgun will work flawlessly if the operator knows what he is doing and keeps his cool. Neither will work if the operator isn't properly prepared, trained, or looses his wits. Personal issues are much more of a factor than what weapon to use, especially when you're comparing two perfectly adequate weapons.

 

[HumblePie]

Yayyyyyy for "Internet" Knowledge.

I will have to seriously question the amount of general weapons experience you have if you think cycling the action of a pump vs the action of an AR has any significant decibel variation, esp given the similar cartridge lengths.

Furthermore both sounds are very distinctive, one no more so than another.

No shit they are both distinctive. So is a fart as distinctive from a bumblebee. The difference is a pump shotgun racking a round can be very loud in a quite house. It is louder than an AR 15 loading a round. Unless you really just want to jam that magazine in a hard as you can and slap it a few more times for good measure. The difference is most people recognize the sound of a shotgun round racking thanks to hollywood and not someone slapping very hard a magazine on an AR 15.

 

[FDF12389]

HumblePie, by and large you are incorrect and your attempts to refute schneiderguy are not good

The argument is so marginal that I wasn't going to pick sides, but yes, schneiderguy is right.

 

[nick1985]

The argument is so marginal that I wasn't going to pick sides, but yes, schneiderguy is right.

Indeed it is marginal, yet Humblepie's vehement argument trying to make AR15's out as bad HD weapons is stupid. They are more than fine

 

[FDF12389]

No shit they are both distinctive. So is a fart as distinctive from a bumblebee. The difference is a pump shotgun racking a round can be very loud in a quite house. It is louder than an AR 15 loading a round. Unless you really just want to jam that magazine in a hard as you can and slap it a few more times for good measure. The difference is most people recognize the sound of a shotgun round racking thanks to hollywood and not someone slapping very hard a magazine on an AR 15.

Ok, its official, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

1. How exactly is a shotgun louder? It's not, the cartridge lengths are very similar, decibel variance would be dependent more upon make/model than anything else. Some ARs will have louder actions than some 12GA pumps. Some 12GA pumps will have louder actions than a AR-15. Stop being dumb.

2. You do realize you have to cycle the action of a AR-15 after putting the mag in right? That's where the noise comes from, and everyone will know what the fuck it is. Saying people will recognize the sound of a pump but not a rack slide is retarded.

 

[spidey07]

Ok, its official, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

1. How exactly is a shotgun louder? It's not, the cartridge lengths are very similar, decibel variance would be dependent more upon make/model than anything else. Some ARs will have louder actions than some 12GA pumps. Some 12GA pumps will have louder actions than a AR-15. Stop being dumb.

2. You do realize you have to cycle the action of a AR-15 after putting the mag in right? That's where the noise comes from, and everyone will know what the fuck it is. Saying people will recognize the sound of a pump but not a rack slide is retarded.

My mossberg pump and ar are equally loud. And having bad guy know where you're at is not good. Keep one in the chamber so all they hear/see is a flash.

 

[nick1985]

^

Yep, him not understanding the difference between slamming a magazine in and rocking the charging handle was a dead giveaway that he knows nothing

 

[Broheim]

snip

that's all fine and dandy, but take it from someone who's seen combat, there's no guarantee a 5.56 round will fragmentize properly. I have seen an insurgent take 4 5.56 rounds and still shoot back at us, I had to end the party with my MG3. if the projectile doesn't fragmentize you're screwed ...
also, you don't want to fire multiple rounds in a confined and dark space, you will lose your orientation.

 

[FDF12389]

^

Yep, him not understanding the difference between slamming a magazine in and rocking the charging handle was a dead giveaway that he knows nothing

Yea I'm done with him after that. I personally wouldn't even want the intruder to know he woke me, let alone give him a heads up that I'm armed.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

I have an 11-87 at work and they are very reliable. They aren't taken care of, hardly ever cleaned, and just generally abused. Any kind of failure is rare at best. The SPX is a nice gun as well and I have an itch to get one myself.

AR vs Shotgun Both are fine. Also depending on your house set-up bird shot is fine. Spend some time with a trauma specialist to find out just how devastating bird shot is, it's just the distance is limited. Use what you are more comfortable with. Raking a shotgun as a deterrent is retarded, why are you going to give away you location?

If you are serious in using your gun for HD invest in a weapon mounted light and think about getting some good electronic ear protection that doesn't limit your hearing much and still offers protection against the shot. Touch of and AR round indoors and your going to suffer hearing loss. If your state allows look into a suppressor for an AR if you go that route.

Bwahhhaaa! Yeah, make sure you have your weapons light and fresh batteries in your lazer and all your tacti-cool gear handy by your bedside and put on your ear protection while someone is rumaging around in your house. You guys read to many soldier of fortune magazines :biggrin:

And I will agree in some situations at very short range bird shot can be devastating to unprotected skin. But I wouldn't trust it! I have a cousin that was shot point blank in the stomach from 3ft with 12ga no. 7 shot and it hardly wounded him. He happened to be wearing a blue jean jacket and only 7 of the pellets penetrated the denim and none of those got through his stomach muscle to his organs. I myself have been shot in the back with bird shot from about 8-10 paces by a careless fellow hunter, I was wearing a light cotton shirt and a cotton hunting vest and it stung like a MF but only a couple of the pellets broke the skin and didn't even require a bandaid.

 

[FDF12389]

that's all fine and dandy, but take it from someone who's seen combat, there's no guarantee a 5.56 round will fragmentize properly. I have seen an insurgent take 4 5.56 rounds and still shoot back at us, I had to end the party with my MG3. if the projectile doesn't fragmentize you're screwed ...
also, you don't want to fire multiple rounds in a confined and dark space, you will lose your orientation.

Good point, that's where quality ammo comes in. Most people get caught up on which gun to get, but ammo is equally important. If you buy it for HD, keep the appropriate ammo around too.

 

[HumblePie]

Ok, its official, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

1. How exactly is a shotgun louder? It's not, the cartridge lengths are very similar, decibel variance would be dependent more upon make/model than anything else. Some ARs will have louder actions than some 12GA pumps. Some 12GA pumps will have louder actions than a AR-15. Stop being dumb.

2. You do realize you have to cycle the action of a AR-15 after putting the mag in right? That's where the noise comes from, and everyone will know what the fuck it is. Saying people will recognize the sound of a pump but not a rack slide is retarded.

Holy shit you are being obtuse. I'm not talking about the actual sound of the round sliding into the chamber. You are fucking retarded. It's the pump action from the forend that makes the loud fucking sound on some models of shotguns. The majority of the sound from a pump shotgun comes from the actual HANDLE (the forend) not the round sliding into the chamber.

 

[spidey07]

Holy shit you are being obtuse. I'm not talking about the actual sound of the round sliding into the chamber. You are fucking retarded. It's the pump action from the forend that makes the loud fucking sound on some models of shotguns. The majority of the sound from a pump shotgun comes from the actual HANDLE (the forend) not the round sliding into the chamber.

And the bolt slamming down on an AR is down right obnoxiously loud. SLIKS-KA-CHUNK!

 

[pontifex]

I'll agree that we disagree with one another. AR is a poor choice. The chance of missing go up with a single projectile over a 12 gauge loaded with # 4 shot out of an 18.5 inch barrel. I'll guarantee a hit.

At home defense ranges buckshot doesn't spread much. you still have to aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR5K3DrD4Lk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4oe6kjvpkg&feature=relmfu

 

[HumblePie]

And that is the difference of opinion. Home defense is a strategy to deter or make bad guys not invade or your home or flee before harm comes to anyone. You guys wanting to kill someone the moment they cross over your doors thresh hold are psycho.

Hell it might just have been a drunk ass neighbor that got dropped off by a taxi cab and didn't realize the house he got dropped off was his. He could have lost his keys earlier and thought to go in through the window thinking the house was his. Sure it is a stupid mistake on his part but is it a mistake worth killing someone over? You slide the pump on a shotgun will most assuredly let that drunk ass neighbor know that he went into the wrong house without actually killing him.

 

[HumblePie]

And the bolt slamming down on an AR is down right obnoxiously loud. SLIKS-KA-CHUNK!

Not comparatively. The bolt is housed inside an AR 15 and as such the sound is contained a bit. It does make sound, but it definitely not as loud as some pump shotguns. Unless of course you modify the gun to be louder than normal when the bolt slides home.

 

[FDF12389]

Holy shit you are being obtuse. I'm not talking about the actual sound of the round sliding into the chamber. You are fucking retarded. It's the pump action from the forend that makes the loud fucking sound on some models of shotguns. The majority of the sound from a pump shotgun comes from the actual HANDLE (the forend) not the round sliding into the chamber.

A. Giving away your position is retarded in the first place, you looked smarter before bringing it up.

B. In regards to the bolded part, no, just no. That part of the shotgun should slide smoothly, the majority of the noise will be metal on metal when the chamber closes.

C. Again, neither action is louder or more recognizable, so you entire argument is garbage.

But please, keep digging.

 

[HumblePie]

At home defense ranges buckshot doesn't spread much. you still have to aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR5K3DrD4Lk&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4oe6kjvpkg&feature=relmfu

Depends upon the load out of the shot. Slugs don't spread at all. Standard buckshot spreads some, but takes a few yards to reach a decent spread. Still even a few feet away it is enough to hit someone standing in a doorway or hallway. Bird shot will spread like crazy though.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Yea I'm done with him after that. I personally wouldn't even want the intruder to know he woke me, let alone give him a heads up that I'm armed.

Why? So you can sneak up on him and kill him? Right

You guys are such tactical military badasses:whiste:

In the vast majority of cases of home intrusion the intruder is not armed. and will flee at the first sign that someone is in the home. And the object should be to protect your family and your property which is best accomplished by making the intruder leave. Actually shooting someone in you home is the very last thing you want to have to do, trust me.

Do you really want to turn on the light to find that you've killed an unarmed 16yo kid? Not me

 

[SP33Demon]

Shotgun > AR because of spread and penetration. I want more penetration through a wall, not less. It's that simple.

My weapon off the list is the Benelli, easily. IIRC the M2 inertia reload action won't jam. Or you could go with the military M4, self cleaning but gas powered.

Can someone tell me more about the Red Jacket shotgun? What's so special about it?