Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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I'm curious about what those who actually work as health care providers. I won't make a poll, because I don't trust them.

So, what do you think of government run UHC?

For? Against? Why?

Also- When you reply, please state your specialty and how long you've been practicing.

PS, this is addressed specifically to active providers. If you don't deal with patients, there are lots of threads out there already.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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I can speak perhaps on behalf of MrsSkoorb. She's an RN and prefers the system in the US. We are in the US in great part because of the unions in Canada, which would have shut out her experience, relegating her to sh*t cleaning when we were to move back instead of giving her a position commensurate with experience. However, as nobody is yet talking about unions for nurses in the US, she still has seen substantially reduced patient loads vs the comparatively overworked nurses in Canada.

EDIT: Interestingly, actually, not only are we in the US still (and now likely to stay forever) because of the healthcare system between it and Canada, but the reason I moved to Canada from England as a kid is because my parents who worked in the national healthcare system in the UK could no longer stand it. I am not sure of the details, but they wanted to get out of it.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
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86
I know the German Anesthesiologists in my department are against it in terms of patient care. What they did back in Germany was before the OR day started, he'd talk with all of the surgeons and decide which cases to cancel.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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I had part ownership of a durable medical goods store (sales/rents items like wheelchairs, oxygen, beds etc).

The major problem there is that the government dictated what price they would pay, without dictating what price suppliers could charge us as retailers. What the h3ll do you do when forced to receive only $100 for a product you buy at wholesale for $105?

Then the gov took it's own sweet time in paying/reimbursing (typically 3 months or more) while we had to either pay upfront or borrow at fairly high rates. The interest costs we had to bear ate even more money.

Then we had to have at least 1 full staff that did nothing but handle claims (medicare/medicaid) adding to the additional costs for it all.

If not for private insurance the business could not have remained in operation.

I see no reason to expect anything different with a(nother) gov sponsored insurance plan.

1. HC providers squeezed (little-to-no gross profit)
2. Extra admin costs borne by the providers (extra O/H costs)
3. Slow pay resulting in additional interest costs (O/H expense)
4. Providers subsizied for gov type services/sales by private insurers/people

Fern
 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
I can speak perhaps on behalf of MrsSkoorb. She's an RN and prefers the system in the US. We are in the US in great part because of the unions in Canada, which would have shut out her experience, relegating her to sh*t cleaning when we were to move back instead of giving her a position commensurate with experience. However, as nobody is yet talking about unions for nurses in the US, she still has seen substantially reduced patient loads vs the comparatively overworked nurses in Canada.

EDIT: Interestingly, actually, not only are we in the US still (and now likely to stay forever) because of the healthcare system between it and Canada, but the reason I moved to Canada from England as a kid is because my parents who worked in the national healthcare system in the UK could no longer stand it. I am not sure of the details, but they wanted to get out of it.

I'm curious, how and why did unions increase patient loads? Unions usually try to reduce their members' workloads....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Originally posted by: Fern
I had part ownership of a durable medical goods store (sales/rents items like wheelchairs, oxygen, beds etc).

The major problem there is that the government dictated what price they would pay, without dictating what price suppliers could charge us as retailers. What the h3ll do you do when forced to receive only $100 for a product you buy at wholesale for $105?

Then the gov took it's own sweet time in paying/reimbursing (typically 3 months or more) while we had to either pay upfront or borrow at fairly high rates. The interest costs we had to bear ate even more money.

Then we had to have at least 1 full staff that did nothing but handle claims (medicare/medicaid) adding to the additional costs for it all.

If not for private insurance the business could not have remained in operation.

I see no reason to expect anything different with a(nother) gov sponsored insurance plan.

1. HC providers squeezed (little-to-no gross profit)
2. Extra admin costs borne by the providers (extra O/H costs)
3. Slow pay resulting in additional interest costs (O/H expense)
4. Providers subsizied for gov type services/sales by private insurers/people

Fern

We spent over $2800 bucks for one med. Medicaid reimbursed us $2650
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Originally posted by: Fern
I had part ownership of a durable medical goods store (sales/rents items like wheelchairs, oxygen, beds etc).

The major problem there is that the government dictated what price they would pay, without dictating what price suppliers could charge us as retailers. What the h3ll do you do when forced to receive only $100 for a product you buy at wholesale for $105?

Then the gov took it's own sweet time in paying/reimbursing (typically 3 months or more) while we had to either pay upfront or borrow at fairly high rates. The interest costs we had to bear ate even more money.

Then we had to have at least 1 full staff that did nothing but handle claims (medicare/medicaid) adding to the additional costs for it all.

If not for private insurance the business could not have remained in operation.

I see no reason to expect anything different with a(nother) gov sponsored insurance plan.

1. HC providers squeezed (little-to-no gross profit)
2. Extra admin costs borne by the providers (extra O/H costs)
3. Slow pay resulting in additional interest costs (O/H expense)
4. Providers subsizied for gov type services/sales by private insurers/people

Fern

Were you able to refuse to sell to the government at the offered reimbursement rate, or were you obligated to provide product? Or if the reimbursement rate was established after the fact, could you refuse to sell this product going forward if you wished?
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Originally posted by: Fern
I had part ownership of a durable medical goods store (sales/rents items like wheelchairs, oxygen, beds etc).

The major problem there is that the government dictated what price they would pay, without dictating what price suppliers could charge us as retailers. What the h3ll do you do when forced to receive only $100 for a product you buy at wholesale for $105?

Then the gov took it's own sweet time in paying/reimbursing (typically 3 months or more) while we had to either pay upfront or borrow at fairly high rates. The interest costs we had to bear ate even more money.

Then we had to have at least 1 full staff that did nothing but handle claims (medicare/medicaid) adding to the additional costs for it all.

If not for private insurance the business could not have remained in operation.

I see no reason to expect anything different with a(nother) gov sponsored insurance plan.

1. HC providers squeezed (little-to-no gross profit)
2. Extra admin costs borne by the providers (extra O/H costs)
3. Slow pay resulting in additional interest costs (O/H expense)
4. Providers subsizied for gov type services/sales by private insurers/people

Fern


The WSJ had a story recently about O2 services for medicare patients; seems the guvament decided to lower the cap on how much they'd pay per period so those in the system that moved are having difficulty finding a supplier before the new period starts because the supplier doesn't want' to deliver for free to a patient at the cap.

But I'm sure the next iteration would have a plan for that :cool:
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
This is probably the first productive thread ever in P&N. I really benefit from the info provided here. I would love to hear more and hear from the people on the other side of the issue.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
I stated this in another thread, but I will restate it here. The state of IL is months behind on their medicaid payments, and I know at least our hospital expects to receive only 10% of the payments they are due.

Also, supporting several software programs that are only for medicare/medicaid patients, I know getting the government to pay is not an easy task.

Edit: I believe we do need a form of UHC, only because of the problems inherent with trying to use a free market model for cases that are life and death. However, I do not believe the government can just make a few changes to make the current model work. I also think there are some very large moral choices we are going to have to make in our future if we do overhaul the system. Too many people assume that if we just implement UHC, all our problems go away, but it cannot be that simple, some people will lose out in such a change.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I can speak perhaps on behalf of MrsSkoorb. She's an RN and prefers the system in the US. We are in the US in great part because of the unions in Canada, which would have shut out her experience, relegating her to sh*t cleaning when we were to move back instead of giving her a position commensurate with experience. However, as nobody is yet talking about unions for nurses in the US, she still has seen substantially reduced patient loads vs the comparatively overworked nurses in Canada.

EDIT: Interestingly, actually, not only are we in the US still (and now likely to stay forever) because of the healthcare system between it and Canada, but the reason I moved to Canada from England as a kid is because my parents who worked in the national healthcare system in the UK could no longer stand it. I am not sure of the details, but they wanted to get out of it.

Well, doctors here in Canada make far less money than those in the US. The same may apply to nurses.

Unions are excellent for job security, and in a profession such as nursing I'm surprised your wife is even willing to work without being part of a union. I'm 99% certain that her pay rate would not have been affected by what you have described above. If her seniority was, then she probably could have found another job where she could have been doing something she liked doing (or else she may have been under qualified).

I don't see why you hate the health care system here so much. I have never had a problem with it, nor has anyone in my family.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: n yusef
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I can speak perhaps on behalf of MrsSkoorb. She's an RN and prefers the system in the US. We are in the US in great part because of the unions in Canada, which would have shut out her experience, relegating her to sh*t cleaning when we were to move back instead of giving her a position commensurate with experience. However, as nobody is yet talking about unions for nurses in the US, she still has seen substantially reduced patient loads vs the comparatively overworked nurses in Canada.

EDIT: Interestingly, actually, not only are we in the US still (and now likely to stay forever) because of the healthcare system between it and Canada, but the reason I moved to Canada from England as a kid is because my parents who worked in the national healthcare system in the UK could no longer stand it. I am not sure of the details, but they wanted to get out of it.

I'm curious, how and why did unions increase patient loads? Unions usually try to reduce their members' workloads....
That's just how it is in Canada, there is a lack of medical professionals to the amount of work to be done, so if a nurse in a given unit in the US has two patients, in Canada it may be three.
Well, doctors here in Canada make far less money than those in the US. The same may apply to nurses.
Actually, it doesn't much. There are travelling nurses in the US that make a ton, but the typical nurse makes a similar wage to Canada AFAIK. Doctors do make more in the US.

Regarding the slow pay of the US gov, that is not a problem in Canada to my knowledge. I used to bill on my parents' behalf and never remember them complaining about MSI paying them all that slowly.
in a profession such as nursing I'm surprised your wife is even willing to work without being part of a union
The best job security is to work in a field that has a demand for what you do. Nurses are in demand in the US now so being out of work as a nurse is almost unheard of.
I'm 99% certain that her pay rate would not have been affected by what you have described above.
You can be certain of whatever you like. It doesn't change the fact that if you are a nurse with 10 years experience in the US, for example, and you go to work in Canada with no union-seniority you will start at the bottom of the union chain along with its benefits for your position. Mrsskoorb was an experienced intensive care nurse and would have had to step back to doing tasks more befitting a new nurse. Unions are not really a UHC topic at the moment, though.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Why the hell would you join a union for a profession that already is inherently secure and pay union dues and be generally hated from by employer and the general populace?
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
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I can speak for my father, a physician of 30 years, as we regularly discuss issues in our respective fields. He is a private practice, triple board certified podiatrist who sees patients in his office four days/week & performs surgeries one day/week. He employs four full-time office workers who each earn about $30,000/yr with full benefits, none of whom have more than a high school education (no certifications, no advanced degrees, etc.). That is, he's not just a physician, he's a small business owner who creates good jobs. He is adamantly opposed to UHC for a number of reasons.

1. Increased government interference & decreased pay from the government will decrease quality of patient care.
2. Decreased incentive to become a physician.
3. Decreased incentive to innovate new medical technologies, including pharmaceuticals.
4. Fails to address ultimate reasons why the healthcare system in this country is broken.

1. As it stands now, health insurance interference with physicians' practices is nightmarish. More interference from the government will not make this better. Of course there must be oversight & regulation of any industry, & the optimal level of regulation is subjective, but there is already too much & more won't improve the situation. One of his four employees spends about 50% of her time fighting with insurance companies for reimbursement of procedures. The insurance companies as a rule fight tooth & nail to not pay for services - the longer they keep money in their bank accounts earning them interest, the more money they make, period. How does this cause a decrease in patient care? Simple. He charges his patients more money across the board because he will not get paid what he bills, & he must pay that employee to fight for payment. That's an increase in cost to the patient because their insurance companies do not have their patients' best interests in mind, they have their own bottom line in mind. This will not change when the government is writing the check. It will get worse - because the insurance companies can't do anything illegal & the government decides what's legal.

But, you ask, that's an increase in health care cost, not a decrease in patient care, isn't i? I think they're the same - paying more for the same service is a decrease in quality. But that's not the end of it. Out of his typical 9 hour work day, my dad spends at least a full hour dealing with insurance headaches one way or another - usually in the form of talking to his patients about how to navigate the insurance labyrinth. That's that much less time he has for actually being a doctor, & that's where the decrease in patient care comes from. The capabilities of modern medicine are astonishing, but most of what doctors can do needs to be done when the problem is incipient & small. If you present with a lump in your breast, your odds of recovery are good. If you present with cancer in your lymph nodes, your odds are a lot lower. For many diseases, a week or two is the difference between life & death. As a podiatrist, he deals with less life & death illnesses & more quality of life issues. For his patients, a few weeks is the difference between a toe amputation & being crippled or not, or more commonly, a few weeks of lowered productivity in the workplace - which has very far-reaching effects. The bottom line is this: the fewer patients per day any given physician can see, the longer you will wait to see them. This is the main criticism made by physicians about UHCs in other countries. The wait is too long. Productivity suffers & lives are lost because as Skoorb says, the workloads per health care worker are higher.

2. Physicians generally do not need to be geniuses, but as a rule, you want your doctor to be sharp. Physicians do not become doctors to make a lot of money. However, physicians spend their 20s & early 30s poor, studying late into the night, constantly taking exams, under constant pressure to perform, & graduate with $100,000+ student loan debts. Becoming a physician is a tremendous investment. When you're done, you have training & skills that few people possess but everyone needs. UHC, with its accompanying increased time not being a doctor & decreased pay, makes this investment far less attractive. Sharp, hard working undergrads will be that much less likely to become doctors & will instead devote their lives to something that is, simply, a better return on their investment. I can't stress enough that doctors don't become doctors to make a lot of money. As it stands now, many primary care physicians make less than $100,000/year. At this rate, it's simply barely economically feasible to even go to medical school. And no physician wants to spend his/her time dealing with paperwork. They want to be doctors. Back when Clinton tried to push UHC in the early 1990s, there was serious talk of forming a nationwide physician's union & there's been increased talk of this again with Obama's push for UHC. As JS80 asks, why the hell would you join a union for a profession that is inherently secure? UHC, that's why.

3. This is probably the most controversial aspect of our health care system, because we all know how much drug companies make. Drugs & medical tech are expensive. Really, really, really expensive. And they can do some really, really, really incredible things. If there is less incentive to develop new drugs & technologies (reduced compensation), companies will slow the rate at which breakthrough advances are made, plain & simple. Just look at the productivity of American vs. European pharm companies. And keep in mind that today's astonishingly expensive drugs are tomorrow's $4 WalMart generics. Again, it's reasonable to think that drug costs are out of control. Drugs are a lot cheaper in Canada. But when was the last time you took a drug that was developed in Canada? UHC is not the answer to this issue.

4. This is what gets my dad & other physicians I talk to really hot & bothered. When my dad opened his practice in 1979, the majority of it was treating accident & sports-related injuries. We looked through his records from the early 80s about a year ago & diabetes-related issues amounted to about 15% of his caseload. Today, that figure is >50%. The 'joke' is that my dad sees them first & cuts off their toes. Then he cuts off their forefoot. Then he removes the rest of the foot. Then they go next door & see the orthopedic surgeon, who does a below the knee amputation. Usually they die before the whole leg goes. The orthopedic surgeon I reference is known in town as the 'limb reaper.' Diabetes & smoking (smoking causes peripheral vascular disease, which often first presents as an illness in the foot) now account for an incredible amount of my dad's practice. 30 years ago, there were no wound care clinics. Now, most big hospitals have them to treat diabetic ulcers & pvd-related conditions. These procedures are costly, they are not 'one & done' procedures like setting a broken bone, & they result in massive productivity losses. Ask GM about those. And they are, for the most part, preventable. When was the last time you heard a politician stand up in front of a crowd & say, "You fat, inactive smokers are crippling this nation's economy?" You haven't, because fat inactive smokers make up a hefty voting bloc. Hell, Obama himself smokes. And this is just how my dad sees the issues of obesity & smoking - ask a cardiologist what they think. Open heart surgery is a bit more expensive than toe amputation. UHC does not sufficiently address this issue - preventable illnesses.

 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

#2 is the biggest problem for me. The AMA has a monopoly on the supply of medical schools (hence the supply of medicine) and it is not in their interest to train more doctors. Not to mention the fact that the only type of person that it attracts are poor full scholarship students and legacy/trust fund babies (not exactly the type of person you want to be in control of your health).
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Gigantopithecus Neat you bring up point 4 because I have harped on it endlessly. The irony is that those least likely to have insurance are also most likely to live poorly and have all of these lifestyle-related diseases. I think that in a great many cases if you took two average Americans and gave one the best private insurance and the other no insurance but told him that from this moment forward he will exercise and eat healthily the second guy would end up with a better quality of life. Granted, a good diet won't help you with a broken back from a car accident, but most people are blowing throw wads of cash in the doctor's office over sh*t they could definitely have made a positive impact on by not living like indolent slugs.
 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
71
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

#2 is the biggest problem for me. The AMA has a monopoly on the supply of medical schools (hence the supply of medicine) and it is not in their interest to train more doctors. Not to mention the fact that the only type of person that it attracts are poor full scholarship students and legacy/trust fund babies (not exactly the type of person you want to be in control of your health).

You are very wrong. See page four. Less than 25% of physicians pay for med school with family money or scholarships. More than 60% pay for it with loans.
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Number 4 is so true! Being in dialysis in acute care, the majority of my patients are the ones described. We have seen an increase in new patients to dialysis as well. I think 1/8 of all medicare spending is on dialysis patients--both legal and illegal. My stance on UHC is well documented here(against).
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
I must say, this is one of the better threads in P&N in a while.

And props to the other gorilla for a fine post.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

#2 is the biggest problem for me. The AMA has a monopoly on the supply of medical schools (hence the supply of medicine) and it is not in their interest to train more doctors. Not to mention the fact that the only type of person that it attracts are poor full scholarship students and legacy/trust fund babies (not exactly the type of person you want to be in control of your health).

You are very wrong. See page four. Less than 25% of physicians pay for med school with family money or scholarships. More than 60% pay for it with loans.

Of the 60% that pay with loans, what % are from wealthy families? I think every single young doctor/med school student I've ever met came from wealthy families (seemed like most were sons of doctors) or were going to school for free. Not to mention that the 40% figure that apparently pay cash is HUGE.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
From my own personal experience, Id say about 20% are children of doctors, about 50% from middle to upper class families, and maybe 30% from working class or lower.

You have to be pretty dang smart to get into med school, and no ones going to argue that higher socioeconomic levels perform better in school.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
You have to be pretty dang smart to get into med school, and no ones going to argue that higher socioeconomic levels perform better in school.

You must be new to P&N. We'll argue about anything. :D
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: glenn1
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

Were you able to refuse to sell to the government at the offered reimbursement rate, or were you obligated to provide product? Or if the reimbursement rate was established after the fact, could you refuse to sell this product going forward if you wished?

Sorry for the late response, I've been offline for a couple of days.

As far as your question, could we have refused to sell at the gov rate? - It's been several years now (maybe 7 or 8) so I don't remember clearly. I think if you are a certified medicare provider you cannot refuse. I could be completely wrong, not to mention the rules have no doubt changed from that long ago. Sorry, that's not much help.

Fern