YART: I want to believe the bible but.....

[Arkitech]

I was raised in a religious household but now that I'm older (and hopefully a little smarter) I find it hard to trust the bible as being reliable. Naturally that kind of distrust carries over in other things as well such as God and religion for starters. So for you people who are familiar with the bible how would you explain these things:


1. - In the early books of the bible God makes it clear that he is different from the false and pagan gods of the land and that the worship of those gods are detestable. But yet all through out the Hebrew scriptures God requires blood sacrifices to atone for the Israelites sins, he also tested Abraham by commanding him to slaughter his son. So my question is would'nt child and blood sacrificices mirror the same kind of worship that the people who served pagan gods performed?

2. - Most people are familiar with Noah and the ark. God destroyed all of mankind with the exception of Noah and his family, after this event took place God vowed never to destroy the world in that manner again. Why would God promise never to do that again if it was'nt a mistake? Also part of the reason that mankind was so bad during that time was because angels from heaven came down to earth to couple with the daughters of men resulting in the giants called Nephilim. The bible says that these giants or Nephilim were the cause of much violence. So why would God kill the humans and not the angels who were involved in that situation? Would that truly be justice to spare the angels from the same type of punishment? Also why were the children not spared, should'nt they at least have had a chance to prove themselves?

3. - Another disturbing issue is that of Job. Basically Job was viewed as one of the most faithful men on the face of the earth. Satan claimed that Job only was loyal to God because he had a good life, so God gave Satan permission to do whatever he wanted to Job as long as he did not kill him. This brings up many moral issues, first off Satan killed all 10 of Job's children. Is it right to take away the life of innocent children over a wager? Also is it right to allow Satan to do whatever he wants to those who are trying to be righteous and faithful? Its hard enough to do the right thing without knowing that God is allowing Satan to beat you over the head to prove a point.

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?


I have other issues as well but I'll start off with these.


Please no flaming, I just want to hear some logical feedback on either sides of these issues.

 

[LordJezo]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?

You are completely free to not give him your wallet and get your head all exploded, but, you are also free to give him your wallet and not catch dead.

Not having free will would mean that all of it was already determined and your choices were not really choices, but simply what you were destined to do.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Later religions 'borrowed' a lot from earlier religions, even if only to make those familiar with the old religions feel at home. Compare the Christ being speared while hanging on the cross part with the ancient story about Odin using his spear to impale himself onto the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days to gain the ultimate knowledge. Behemoth? Borrowed from the ancient Egyptians. The flooding? Ancient Greek mythology, as well as several other religions, as people have always feared water.

 

[Nitemare]

Man was made in God's image, so he is only human...

:evil:

 

[nativesunshine]

.....but it says that animals don't have souls...


and i believe that animals have souls...

 

[Gravity]

It is good to struggle with things of eternal consequence. Instead of these stories in the bible, read Romans and Acts. The bible is the outline for God's plan for your life. Here's the cliff notes:

1. God's plan is for all of us to dwell with Him forever.
2. Because of sin, we cannot have fellowship with God, it seperates us from Him.
3. Sin cannot be overcome by good works or deeds.
4. The only way to overcome sin is accept the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, God's only son.
5. Accepting Christ as your savior ensures that you will live forever in fellowship with God.

Those are the five basic tenents. Any questions?

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I was raised in a religious household but now that I'm older (and hopefully a little smarter) I find it hard to trust the bible as being reliable. Naturally that kind of distrust carries over in other things as well such as God and religion for starters. So for you people who are familiar with the bible how would you explain these things:


1. - In the early books of the bible God makes it clear that he is different from the false and pagan gods of the land and that the worship of those gods are detestable. But yet all through out the Hebrew scriptures God requires blood sacrifices to atone for the Israelites sins, he also tested Abraham by commanding him to slaughter his son. So my question is would'nt child and blood sacrificices mirror the same kind of worship that the people who served pagan gods performed?

2. - Most people are familiar with Noah and the ark. God destroyed all of mankind with the exception of Noah and his family, after this event took place God vowed never to destroy the world in that manner again. Why would God promise never to do that again if it was'nt a mistake? Also part of the reason that mankind was so bad during that time was because angels from heaven came down to earth to couple with the daughters of men resulting in the giants called Nephilim. The bible says that these giants or Nephilim were the cause of much violence. So why would God kill the humans and not the angels who were involved in that situation? Would that truly be justice to spare the angels from the same type of punishment? Also why were the children not spared, should'nt they at least have had a chance to prove themselves?

3. - Another disturbing issue is that of Job. Basically Job was viewed as one of the most faithful men on the face of the earth. Satan claimed that Job only was loyal to God because he had a good life, so God gave Satan permission to do whatever he wanted to Job as long as he did not kill him. This brings up many moral issues, first off Satan killed all 10 of Job's children. Is it right to take away the life of innocent children over a wager? Also is it right to allow Satan to do whatever he wants to those who are trying to be righteous and faithful? Its hard enough to do the right thing without knowing that God is allowing Satan to beat you over the head to prove a point.

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?


I have other issues as well but I'll start off with these.


Please no flaming, I just want to hear some logical feedback on either sides of these issues.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Later religions 'borrowed' a lot from earlier religions, even if only to make those familiar with the old religions feel at home. Compare the Christ being speared while hanging on the cross part with the ancient story about Odin using his spear to impale himself onto the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days to gain the ultimate knowledge. Behemoth? Borrowed from the ancient Egyptians. The flooding? Ancient Greek mythology, as well as several other religions, as people have always feared water.

I'm not sure about that flooding thing being ancient greek mythology. The Jewish account is probably a bit older. I'll check on that though.

 

[StageLeft]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the new testament basically invalidates guidelines set forth in the old, so it makes no benefit to a person to try and understand both at the same time, in the same vein, because the new overrides the old.

 

[OutHouse]

you asked some very interesting questions. I will be lurking for what people respond with.

Oh PLEASE NO FLAMMING!!! keep this a clean and honest discussion.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Later religions 'borrowed' a lot from earlier religions, even if only to make those familiar with the old religions feel at home. Compare the Christ being speared while hanging on the cross part with the ancient story about Odin using his spear to impale himself onto the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days to gain the ultimate knowledge. Behemoth? Borrowed from the ancient Egyptians. The flooding? Ancient Greek mythology, as well as several other religions, as people have always feared water.

I'm not sure about that flooding thing being ancient greek mythology. The Jewish account is probably a bit older. I'll check on that though.

I heard an NPR interview this weekend with the author of a book called God: A Biography which attributed the idea of the Biblical flood to a concept taken from a Babylonian god(dess?) of destruction. It sounded like an attempt to trace the roots of the Bible from (then) contemporary polytheistic cultures, and apparently won a Pulitzer Prize. I can't speak to its historical or theological accuracy, though.

 

[nageov3t]

Skoorb speaks the truth. the new testement trumps the hebrew scriptures. Christians don't practice animal sacrifice because Jesus sacrificed himself for "us" (us being Christians... not that I personally am a Christian).



Animals can't have souls, though. If your dog has a soul, than the cow that died to make your steak also has to have a soul, and that insect that you swatted has to have a soul, and we'd all be going to hell for killing creatures with souls.

 

[clamum]

Originally posted by: loki8481
Skoorb speaks the truth. the new testement trumps the hebrew scriptures. Christians don't practice animal sacrifice because Jesus sacrificed himself for "us" (us being Christians... not that I personally am a Christian).



Animals can't have souls, though. If your dog has a soul, than the cow that died to make your steak also has to have a soul, and that insect that you swatted has to have a soul, and we'd all be going to hell for killing creatures with souls.

Maybe they do have souls and there is no hell.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: loki8481
Skoorb speaks the truth. the new testement trumps the hebrew scriptures. Christians don't practice animal sacrifice because Jesus sacrificed himself for "us" (us being Christians... not that I personally am a Christian).



Animals can't have souls, though. If your dog has a soul, than the cow that died to make your steak also has to have a soul, and that insect that you swatted has to have a soul, and we'd all be going to hell for killing creatures with souls.

ha ha.. Jack Van Impe (the quack he is) has a video on this very topic. I ordered it for a hoot, though I felt guilty giving him any of my money. I don't have it yet. Interesting how he sent out two support letters in one week, but no video. Oh well, I'll give you all the update when i have it in.

Anyway, apparently from what i've read, he justifies pets being in heaven b/c Jesus will be coming back to earth on the back of a white horse. And, it also says in the bible that in heaven the lamb will lie down with the lion. It's stretching it, but hey, he's a quack.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: loki8481
Skoorb speaks the truth. the new testement trumps the hebrew scriptures. Christians don't practice animal sacrifice because Jesus sacrificed himself for "us" (us being Christians... not that I personally am a Christian).



Animals can't have souls, though. If your dog has a soul, than the cow that died to make your steak also has to have a soul, and that insect that you swatted has to have a soul, and we'd all be going to hell for killing creatures with souls.

Maybe they do have souls and there is no hell.

If there is no hell, there is no heaven most likely, and in that case there is no use talking about souls in the first place.

 

[Sideswipe001]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I was raised in a religious household but now that I'm older (and hopefully a little smarter) I find it hard to trust the bible as being reliable. Naturally that kind of distrust carries over in other things as well such as God and religion for starters. So for you people who are familiar with the bible how would you explain these things:


1. - In the early books of the bible God makes it clear that he is different from the false and pagan gods of the land and that the worship of those gods are detestable. But yet all through out the Hebrew scriptures God requires blood sacrifices to atone for the Israelites sins, he also tested Abraham by commanding him to slaughter his son. So my question is would'nt child and blood sacrificices mirror the same kind of worship that the people who served pagan gods performed?

God never required Human sacrifice. That's one big difference. He used it as a test (which he knew he would never let happen actually), but it was never a part of the Israellite religion. They sacrificed firstborn lambs that were unblemished (symbolic of Christ), as well as other animals; all animal sacrifice was no longer required after the death of Christ.

2. - Most people are familiar with Noah and the ark. God destroyed all of mankind with the exception of Noah and his family, after this event took place God vowed never to destroy the world in that manner again. Why would God promise never to do that again if it was'nt a mistake? Also part of the reason that mankind was so bad during that time was because angels from heaven came down to earth to couple with the daughters of men resulting in the giants called Nephilim. The bible says that these giants or Nephilim were the cause of much violence. So why would God kill the humans and not the angels who were involved in that situation? Would that truly be justice to spare the angels from the same type of punishment? Also why were the children not spared, should'nt they at least have had a chance to prove themselves?

I can tell you that the flood was symbolic of "baptising" the Earth. It was not a mistake. It needed to be done once, but not again. People will mostly all be destroyed again, after all. Just not until the 2nd coming of Christ.

I am not familiar with the Giants thing. I know that Giants are mentioned throughout the Old Testament; give me a verse that says where they came from and I'll read about it. I'm not sure where you get the thing about punishment though. I don't remember any speicific "vengence of God" against Giants.

3. - Another disturbing issue is that of Job. Basically Job was viewed as one of the most faithful men on the face of the earth. Satan claimed that Job only was loyal to God because he had a good life, so God gave Satan permission to do whatever he wanted to Job as long as he did not kill him. This brings up many moral issues, first off Satan killed all 10 of Job's children. Is it right to take away the life of innocent children over a wager? Also is it right to allow Satan to do whatever he wants to those who are trying to be righteous and faithful? Its hard enough to do the right thing without knowing that God is allowing Satan to beat you over the head to prove a point.

Well, God DOES control when we go into and out of this life. Maybe Job's sons were good and ready to be taken back home to God. I also believe that God really didn't have any doubts as to if Job would pass the test. People are better after having survived bad experiences faithfully than they are never having had to suffer them. It's a part of life. Bad stuff happens so we grow. Even to good people. Heck, look at Christ. He was perfect and look what happened to him.

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?

As was said before, there is always a choice. Your free will lets you make whatever choices you desire. You just have to accept the consequences assosciated with them. Sometimes the consequences take other choices away. You can choose to drink but not choose if that drink will make you an alcoholic. You can choose to jump off a building but not choose what will happen to you when you hit the ground. Some people have less choices than others, but everyone can choose. And what's wrong with there being only one choice to live? Say God is right and you must follow Christ. It's black and white. One or the other. "Choose ye this day whom you will serve". Some choices in life ARE black and white.

 

[JackDawkins]

Life is much simpler as a pagan. I highly recommend it.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Life is much simpler as a pagan. I highly recommend it.

how so? I couldn't even count how many debates I've had over various pagan beliefs with my friends that stretched into the early morning hours.

 

[marquee]

Originally posted by: LordJezo

Originally posted by: Arkitech

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?

You are completely free to not give him your wallet and get your head all exploded, but, you are also free to give him your wallet and not catch dead.

Not having free will would mean that all of it was already determined and your choices were not really choices, but simply what you were destined to do.

a bit off topic, but this is an interesting read for the question concerning free will. its a bit long, but the conclusion it reaches is pretty intriguing.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: LordJezo

Originally posted by: Arkitech

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?

You are completely free to not give him your wallet and get your head all exploded, but, you are also free to give him your wallet and not catch dead.

Not having free will would mean that all of it was already determined and your choices were not really choices, but simply what you were destined to do.

See this kind of a point of contention for me. Most sane people have a built-in instinct for survival, so when it comes to a life and death situation its not to hard to figure out what most people will do. So again do we really have free-will when the only choices are living or dying?

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Life is much simpler as a pagan. I highly recommend it.

Its also easier not to get up and go to work/school in the morning, or clean up after our selves etc etc... But somethings are worth workign for aren't they?

Great thread everyone... keep it going

 

[Lonyo]

So the problem of suffering is a non-issue for you? (since it doesn't seem to be listed)

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: LordJezo

Originally posted by: Arkitech

4. - Something else that has always bothered me is the notion of free will. Is it really free will if there's only one choice to make that will let you live? Its like a man with a gun to your head who says he will shoot you unless you give him your wallet. Is there really much free will involved in a situation like that?

You are completely free to not give him your wallet and get your head all exploded, but, you are also free to give him your wallet and not catch dead.

Not having free will would mean that all of it was already determined and your choices were not really choices, but simply what you were destined to do.

See this kind of a point of contention for me. Most sane people have a built-in instinct for survival, so when it comes to a life and death situation its not to hard to figure out what most people will do. So again do we really have free-will when the only choices are living or dying?

Well you kinda answered yourself IMHO.
It is YOUR will to want to live... that is youre conscience or subconscience choice that is made. Its not pre-destined. If you CHOOSE to live then that has been your free will... Damn words they get in the way.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: nativesunshine
.....but it says that animals don't have souls...


and i believe that animals have souls...

on a similar note, is there anything resembling religion amoungst animals?

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Life is much simpler as a pagan. I highly recommend it.

life would also be much more convenient if I could speed everywhere,but that doesn't mean it's a sensible, or good choice. choosing convenience over your soul is hardly a wise choice.


As for the issue Sideswipe didn't cover:

The bible says that these giants or Nephilim were the cause of much violence. So why would God kill the humans and not the angels who were involved in that situation? Would that truly be justice to spare the angels from the same type of punishment? Also why were the children not spared, should'nt they at least have had a chance to prove themselves?

Remember, Satan's forces are also angels (except evil). And those angels are already cursed - once the end of the age comes about, so too will they meet justice.

The men were probably just a race of taller people (well, giants... ) and I have no doubt they were punished also.

Mind you, when someone dies, it is because God is taking them. They have been given sufficient time to decide. As it is, though, I believe there is a "legal age" (so to speak) in the Bible mentioned, before which one is not yet considered responsible for their soul yet.



As for the "Flood borrowed from the Babylonians" part - it's not a legend; it's historical fact that is backed up by Babylonian texts (the Babylonian tablets on which accounts of the flood are inscribed are tablets of history). And I'm quite sure the Greeks came AFTER the ancient Hebrews.

 

[gopunk]

Animals can't have souls, though. If your dog has a soul, than the cow that died to make your steak also has to have a soul, and that insect that you swatted has to have a soul, and we'd all be going to hell for killing creatures with souls.

i don't see why that means that animals can't have souls... it just means we could be possibly killing a bunch of creatures with souls.