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YART: Any Muslims here? I have two serious questions...

AnyMal

AnyMal

Lifer
YART = Yet Another Religious Thread, I am sure you all had it figured out 😉

Anyhow, if there are any Muslim scholars here I have couple questions for you.

1. As I understand, Islam regards Jesus Christ as one of its prophets. Since we know that Jesus was a jew, why is there so much anymosity between arabs and jews? Is it only because of the creation of Israel or its roots are deeper then that?

2. AFAIK, Islam is fairly "new" religion, i.e. prophet Muhammad lived in 7th (?) century A.D. Please correct me if I wrong. Anyhow, what I want to know is what religion was prevalent among arabs before Islam?

Thanks
 
im not a muslim or even qualified to talk about theology but...
2. i think you mean A.D. when muhammad was alive
it is my understanding that christianity islam(whatever) are essentially the same religions that have been around for centuries before.
most of the christian relgious sites in greece, italy turkey are typically places where an earlier relgion was also practiced
ie the location of a church was in the exact same location as an ancient temple.
i believe the names and faces and have changed, not much else.
 
Originally posted by: AnyMal
YART = Yet Another Religious Thread, I am sure you all had it figured out 😉 Anyhow, if there are any Muslim scholars here I have couple questions for you. 1. As I understand, Islam regards Jesus Christ as one of its prophets. Since we know that Jesus was a jew, why is there so much anymosity between arabs and jews? Is it only because of the creation of Israel or its roots are deeper then that? 2. AFAIK, Islam is fairly "new" religion, i.e. prophet Muhammad lived in 7th (?) century B.C. Please correct me if I wrong. Anyhow, what I want to know is what religion was prevalent among arabs before Islam? Thanks
Click to expand...

1) Don't know the answer.

2) They were either Christian, Jew or idol worshippers (don't know what religion exactly). The majority were idol worshippers.
 
My bad, I meant A.D. not B.C. will correct that right now. Keep those answers coming though, I don't think we've heard from any Muslims yet.
 
abraham, considered the father of both the jewish nation and the muslim world, had two sons...ishmael through his maidservant hagar, and isaac, through his wife sarai. tradition holds that the descendants of ishmael make up the muslim world and the descendants of isaac make up the jewish nation....so i guess the tension today has its roots much further back.

there is debate as to whether the isaac or ishmael was the one chosen by God. here is a link to a muslim website explaining the controversy

Ishmael or Isaac?
 
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
abraham, considered the father of both the jewish nation and the muslim world, had two sons...ishmael through his maidservant hagar, and isaac, through his wife sarai. tradition holds that the descendants of ishmael make up the muslim world and the descendants of isaac make up the jewish nation....so i guess the tension today has its roots much further back.

there is debate as to whether the isaac or ishmael was the one chosen by God. here is a link to a muslim website explaining the controversy

Ishmael or Isaac?
Click to expand...

So, essentially we are talking about the largest case of sibling rivalry here? Not trying to make fun here, but it sure sounds like it..
 
im not muslim, but i am familiar with some of these areas

1. arabs versus jews, according to the Bible, it goes back a few thousand years to abrahams sons, isaac and Ishmail. isaac was the son (thru Sarah, his wife), and Ishmail was the bastage child of hagar (the egyption slave that they got while in egypt.) Isaac's son, Jacob went on to be the fater of the nation of Israel. Ishmail got a wife from egypt and influence the modern arabs. As you can imagine Ishmail was the first born and he did not get any of the glory that Isaac did becuase isaac was the miricle child (for sarah was too old to have children). They hated each other then. they hate each other now. It is like a family feud that has been going on for a few thousand years and it will continue to go on till one of the races is gone.

2. before the islamic conquests, a good portion of the people in north africa were converted to Christianity by the early church. the people in the arab peninsula served idols (that were in the kabaa). When Muhhamid had his vision, he united the arabs, destroyed the idols in the kabaa and instuted worship of the moon god Allah (hence the crecent symbol in many islamic countries flags). the muslims set forth on a conquest. They made a huge conquests from eastern Europe, north africa, to spain. As a matter of fact, if a certain leader in france had not stoped the islamic advance from spain. we might all be islamic right now. The early conquests actually improved conditions in the occupied countries. some non muslims (i think) even aided in their take over. becuase the early islamic nation just slapped extra taxes on you if you were not muslim. not flat out killed you like some of their rullers. a few generations later, they were all converted.

edit, somepeople arlready posted some of the stuff i said, i was typing when they posted, sry

Edit2: i got esau mixed up with ishmail, oops.
 
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
im not muslim, but i am familiar with some of these areas

1. arabs versus jews, according to the Bible, it goes back a few thousand years to abrahams sons, isaac and esau. isaac was the son (thru Sarah, his wife), and Esau was the bastage child of hagar (the egyption slave that they got while in egypt.) Isaac's son, Jacob went on to be the fater of the nation of Israel. Esau got a wife from egypt and influence the modern arabs. As you can imagine Esau was the first born and he did not get any of the glory that Isaac did becuase isaac was the miricle child (for sarah was too old to have children). They hated each other then. they hate each other now. It is like a family feud that has been going on for a few thousand years and it will continue to go on till one of the races is gone.

2. before the islamic conquests, a good portion of the people in north africa were converted to Christianity by the early church. the people in the arab peninsula served idols (that were in the kabaa). When Muhhamid had his "vision" he united the arabs, destroyed the idols in the kabaa and instuted worship of the moon god Allah (hence the crecent symbol in many islamic countries flags). the muslims set forth on a conquest. They made a huge conquests from eastern Europe, north africa, to spain. As a matter of fact, if a certain leader in france had not stoped the islamic advance from spain. we might all be islamic right now. The early conquests actually improved conditions in the occupied countries. some non muslims (i think) even aided in their take over. becuase the early islamic nation just slapped extra taxes on you if you were not muslim. not flat out killed you like some of their rullers. a few generations later, they were all converted.

edit, somepeople arlready posted some of the stuff i said, i was typing when they posted, sry
Click to expand...

btw, esau wasn't the son of abraham...he was the son of isaac. abraham's kid through his maidservant was ishmael. i think you are getting jacob mixed up with isaac.
 
Originally posted by: AnyMal
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
abraham, considered the father of both the jewish nation and the muslim world, had two sons...ishmael through his maidservant hagar, and isaac, through his wife sarai. tradition holds that the descendants of ishmael make up the muslim world and the descendants of isaac make up the jewish nation....so i guess the tension today has its roots much further back.

there is debate as to whether the isaac or ishmael was the one chosen by God. here is a link to a muslim website explaining the controversy

Ishmael or Isaac?
Click to expand...

So, essentially we are talking about the largest case of sibling rivalry here? Not trying to make fun here, but it sure sounds like it..
Click to expand...

yup that's exactly it...
 
Another non-muslim here, but some info in this thread is sketchy.

Christianity and Islam are definitely NOT the same religions. They are very, very different. Islam is much more like Judaism actually. There are almost no fundamental differences in the main tenets of Islam and Judaism. Islam just adds Jesus and Mohammed onto the list of Jewish prophets. They've got the same main idea, though... be good in this life, God is indivisible and One, pray, keep kosher, etc.

Christianity on the other hand is much more focused on the afterlife - salvation, original sin, a god that is three and one, and other things that don't fit with Islamic beliefs. Jesus is the son of God, something Jews and Muslims would scoff at the mere thought of.

Islam is the "newest" of the three western religions, but is hardly new... over 1300 years so far.

Most importantly, Jews and Muslims have lived together peacefully for over 1000 years. In fact, when the Christians were persecuting Jews in Europe in the Middle Ages, Islamic Spain was a center of Jewish thought. The middle east, under Islam, was a hotbed for Jewish thought as well. Jews, in the beginning, were "people of the book" and were to be treated with respect.

I'd say, and i'm no expert, that the modern conflict came around 100 years ago with the advent of Zionism. Jews coming in, and later staking a claim (which some claimed to be a holy claim) on land that Arabs had been living on for 1000+ years. Then, when a colonial power (Britain) created a Jewish state in the middle of the Arab world, people got understandably pissed.
 
Adding on to my prior post, I highly doubt any real, tangible conflict can be attributed to the "sibling rivalry" mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Unless you count the Bible as a literal history, that is, which most folks don't.

The other posts about the regions former religions are correct. North Africa was almost entirely Christian, with cities such as Alexandria contributing a lot to the development of Christianity. The levant (syria, israel area) was also largely Christian... Pretty much the old Roman empire, which leaves out Arabia and Persia.
 
Thanks for all the responses, it turned out to be a very interesting and informative read. I think this thread exemplefies how religious discussions could be handled without unnencessery flames.

And now more questions:

What is the role of Jesus in Islam? I know he is considered to be a prophet but what exactly did he reveal to arabs? Besides Jesus, are there any other non-arab figures that are considered important in Islam?

The reason I am asking all this is that I want to understand it better. We all know that muslims have been chastised by US media lately and I think it's unfair. Somehow, I don't think that Islam as a religion preaches violence. Am I wrong? We always bill ourselves as the most tolerant and accepting society, yet somehow we tend to be selective.
 
Islam by itself means: Submission. conquest and violence was used to spread islam (but alot of religions were spread that way) as for US being selective, in many countries you would be publically executed for not following the states religion
 
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Islam by itself means: Submission. conquest and violence was used to spread islam (but alot of religions were spread that way) as for US being selective, in many countries you would be publically executed for not following the states religion
Click to expand...

One word: Crusades.
 
1. Same reason some Christians look down on Jews basically, because they see them as people who once followed the path of god, but then stepped down from it by not embracing Jesus and Muhammed.

The violence in that region is based on cultural differences and personal interpretation mostly though, as 2:190 to 2:194 in the Quran state they are not allowed to attack anyone unless that person fights them, but the violent ones just use other parts of it to claim the whole Jewish religion is at war with them. Same way Jewish and Christian extremists interpret their holy texts in such a way that they can justify violence when they want. Mankind never needed religion to guide them in such matters, man just needs it to be able to justify fullfilling his own personal greed and lust for power.

2. Some Jews, some Christians, some local religions, etc.
 
Islam does mean submission, but its submission to God.

Violence was used to conquer territory (is there any other way?) but as far as I remember it, Jews and Christians were not forced to convert. They had to pay higher taxes than Muslims, but usually no forced conversions. There were many Jews in high ranking positions in Muslim governments over the years.
 
and more, its part way down.


MYTH

?Jews who lived in Islamic countries were well-treated by the Arabs.?

FACT

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).

Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854­859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

MYTH

?As 'People of the Book,' Jews and Christians are protected under Islamic law.?

FACT

This argument is rooted in the traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection"), which was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Yet, as French authority Jacques Ellul has observed: "One must ask: 'protected against whom?' When this 'stranger' lives in Islamic countries, the answer can only be: against the Muslims themselves."32

Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were usually allowed, as dhimmis (protected persons), to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to acknowledge openly the superiority of the true believer ? the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi.33

Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims, or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non-Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were forced to wear distinctive clothing and were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices ? as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi also had to show public deference toward Muslims; for example, always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.34

By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:

The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.35
 
Originally posted by: AnyMal
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Islam by itself means: Submission. conquest and violence was used to spread islam (but alot of religions were spread that way) as for US being selective, in many countries you would be publically executed for not following the states religion
Click to expand...

One word: Crusades.
Click to expand...

Throughout history, people have always tried to do things better than the Bible told them. What happened was people were led by a man who either misinterpreted a tiny bit of scripture or made some stuff up entirely from scratch. Muslim extremists (JUST the psycho-killer extremists!!) take the part of the Koran that mentions anyone who opposes Islam may be put to death and use it as an excuse to execute anyone at will. (Just ignore all the "merciful" stuff... be merciful to a few widows and children and those brutal murders are okay.) I'd better watch myself... I'm getting too colourful. 🙂

The Crusades were another group of extremists taking scripture out of context and forcibly trying to convert people.

but if you want to talk about BLOOD-Y stuff, the Spanish Inquisition was the worst. The Catholic church was making a few changes to those pesky Ten Commandments and someone needed to take the heat off the Pope. In came the partners in crime, the Jesuits, who brutally tortured and executed men, women and children at will - anyone who did not accept the way the Catholic church did things, such as believe that little wafer (wasn't always a wafer y'know) is ACTUALLY the body of Jesus, not a symbolic thing - and ALL owners of a Bible! Bibles were strictly forbidden! "You believe what we TELL you to!" The change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday because it was more popular with the nation's pagans they wished to come in to the church... the institutions of confession to keep track of the people, the idea of penance and paying money to get people to Heaven faster, even the very idea people go straight to Heaven or Hell immediately upon death, as well as Purgatory (another non-Biblical invention)... it's all stuff they instituted themselves and are not only not Biblical, they go AGAINST the Bible. Heck, they just took the old statues of the Greek "gods" Mars, etc, and renamed them to "saints" like Peter. Right there in the Vatican.

Don't think I'm just spouting off... get yourself a copy of the Catholic Church's own book, "The Convert's Guide to the Catechism" and read pages 50-52 to start off, where they talk about having the right to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. It has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus either... read the Bible carefully at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection and when/where Sabbath/day of rest is mentioned.

There's currently a $1 Million offer out there (no joke) for anyone who can find, in the Bible, where the day was changed. It simply doesn't exist.

.....

I really digressed didn't I? 😱 I do have one point from all this.... if you take the words of a MAN over the words in the Bible, you're headed for trouble. RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF. History is good. Archeology is good! Study! If something sounds fishy, don't follow blindly and don't just shut your ears and ignore it... check it out thoroughly and prayerfully.

There's quite a bit of documentation out there for and against the idea that the whole Muslim faith stemmed from worship of the moon god. I don't have much evidence to currently speak with authority on that subject. Seach for Islam and moon god and start sifting... you'll definately get documents from both sides.

Whew... I didn't intend to type all that... Hope you get SOMETHING out of it. 😱
To think.. I may be already marked for death both by Muslims AND the Jesuit Order. 😛
 
bluemax - very interesting indeed. However, I do have to ask you. Aren't you relying on Bible a bit too much? The reason I am asking is that as most know the earliest copy of Bible known to date was written around 5th century A.D., there are actually two know copies, one is written in Greek and another one in Latin. Considering that events that it describes took place many centuries prior, how can you verify its validity? Another concern would be the translation; it is not neccessery to interpret anything in the manner that suit's your cause, all you have to do is to change one word or even syntax and the text will take on the whole new meaning.
 
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