YAPIGTST: more bad news for Sony...christ, it just doesn't end - xbox360 to support 1080p

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: Queasy
Backwards compatability is not the big selling point that Sony is pushing and MS already matched the PS3 with HD-DVD.

I don't see them as equal. HD-DVD won't be installed on but a fraction of XBOX360s for quite a while.

Even after they arrive as standard equipment, they won't be any better than the SegaCD. There won't be a lot of exclusive content because devs won't want to fragment the userbase.

Of course they are not equal. The reason being: MS gives you a CHOICE. Do I want to buy the HD player? No? Well, cool because now I don't have to since it is a separate transaction. However, Sony has forced their technology upon you and now you get to pay a premium for it whether you have a 19" crapper TV or a greatest TV ever 1080P set.

Nobody complained when the PS2 / XBOX came with DVD instead of CD drives. I see this as the same.

Even if Blu-Ray fails as a movie format, at least the system will be able to make use of massive ammounts of storage.

I think Blu-Ray is a great choice for a storage medium that happens to synergize well with other Sony marketing efforts. It's just tragic that they have so many delays with it.

But we're talking about a gaming system here and not what people are going to use as a storage device. The difference between this generation and PS2/Xbox is that the two were priced comparably and both had the same base technology in their drives. This time Sony is forcing you to upgrade while MS is letting you decide if you really want to as reflected in the price.

You also have to take into account the price of the drive technology at the time of production. How many people do you know with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drives at their house right now? How many people did you know with DVD players in their house at the time of the PS2/Xbox release?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

Yep. Lets not kid ourselves now. The ps3 is going to do 1080p the same way GT4 did 1080i - upscaling. Sure, it might have the technical capability to do 1080p, but so does the xbox. Its just not worth it. As well all know, games run a hell of a lot slower at 1600x1200 than they do at 1280x1024. The ps3 doesnt have some magic powers that enable it to get around this.

Blu-ray isnt upscaled, and neither is HD-DVD. The games on the other hand, will most likely be. For those that aren't it'll come at a cost to support those <1% of users that actually have 1080p sets and good enough eyesight to actually distinguish the difference, which is MUCH smaller than the jump from 480p to 720p.

 

[ivol07]

Now all we need is for MS to match Sony's supposed free price tag of their online service and xbox will be pretty hard to beat.

I do kind of hope Sony comes out strong with the PS3 tho, only for the sake of competition. I don't really want MS to dominate consoles as well. But it looks like they are on their way to doing just that.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: BDawg

I don't see them as equal. HD-DVD won't be installed on but a fraction of XBOX360s for quite a while.

Probably the fraction that actually need/want it, which is a pretty small fraction considering that most people still don't have an HDTV. You don't need cpacity beyond a DVD-9 disc for a game unless there's a sh*tload of FMV. And in the rare case that you do need it, they can use 2 discs. Not a big deal.

Right now the BluRay drive is not beneficial to the majority of people.

Originally posted by: BDawg
Nobody complained when the PS2 / XBOX came with DVD instead of CD drives. I see this as the same.

Because any TV could take advantage of the benefits of DVD-VIDEO.

And the jump from 700 MB to 5-9 GB was actually useful for games. The jump from 9 GB to 25+ GB really just gives you more room for FMV.

 

[BDawg]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: BDawg

I don't see them as equal. HD-DVD won't be installed on but a fraction of XBOX360s for quite a while.

Probably the fraction that actually need/want it, which is a pretty small fraction considering that most people still don't have an HDTV. You don't need cpacity beyond a DVD-9 disc for a game unless there's a sh*tload of FMV. And in the rare case that you do need it, they can use 2 discs. Not a big deal.

Right now the BluRay drive is not beneficial to the majority of people.

Originally posted by: BDawg
Nobody complained when the PS2 / XBOX came with DVD instead of CD drives. I see this as the same.

Because any TV could take advantage of the benefits of DVD-VIDEO.

And the jump from 700 MB to 5-9 GB was actually useful for games. The jump from 9 GB to 25+ GB really just gives you more room for FMV.

I don't buy it. Developers will discover great uses for the extra space. People always claim more space isn't needed.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: BDawg

I don't see them as equal. HD-DVD won't be installed on but a fraction of XBOX360s for quite a while.

Probably the fraction that actually need/want it, which is a pretty small fraction considering that most people still don't have an HDTV. You don't need cpacity beyond a DVD-9 disc for a game unless there's a sh*tload of FMV. And in the rare case that you do need it, they can use 2 discs. Not a big deal.

Right now the BluRay drive is not beneficial to the majority of people.

Originally posted by: BDawg
Nobody complained when the PS2 / XBOX came with DVD instead of CD drives. I see this as the same.

Because any TV could take advantage of the benefits of DVD-VIDEO.

And the jump from 700 MB to 5-9 GB was actually useful for games. The jump from 9 GB to 25+ GB really just gives you more room for FMV.

I don't buy it. Developers will discover great uses for the extra space. People always claim more space isn't needed.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Most of the titles developed for PS3 will be simultaneously developed for the 360. I don't think they will take the time to add a ton more content to the PS3 versions just because they can.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: ivol07
Now all we need is for MS to match Sony's supposed free price tag of their online service and xbox will be pretty hard to beat.

Let's wait and see what happens with Sony's online platform first. Free does not necessarily mean better.

One PS3 game (Tony Hawk) has already announced that they will not have online capabilities at launch because Sony hasn't provided the developer with the online libraries yet. I'm interested to see what the other 3rd Party Devs have for online.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: BDawg

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: BDawg

I don't see them as equal. HD-DVD won't be installed on but a fraction of XBOX360s for quite a while.

Probably the fraction that actually need/want it, which is a pretty small fraction considering that most people still don't have an HDTV. You don't need cpacity beyond a DVD-9 disc for a game unless there's a sh*tload of FMV. And in the rare case that you do need it, they can use 2 discs. Not a big deal.

Right now the BluRay drive is not beneficial to the majority of people.

Originally posted by: BDawg
Nobody complained when the PS2 / XBOX came with DVD instead of CD drives. I see this as the same.

Because any TV could take advantage of the benefits of DVD-VIDEO.

And the jump from 700 MB to 5-9 GB was actually useful for games. The jump from 9 GB to 25+ GB really just gives you more room for FMV.

I don't buy it. Developers will discover great uses for the extra space. People always claim more space isn't needed.

FMV FTW!

Seriously, MS is showing that DVD-9 is sufficient at this point with their compression technologies. They weighed more space against more cost and took a different route than Sony. Doesn't look like a bad decision since they've been able to get their console to market a full year before their competitor and still match it/beat it feature wise.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: BDawg
I don't buy it. Developers will discover great uses for the extra space. People always claim more space isn't needed.

Maybe. But in most cases it will indeed just be FMV. There are Xbox games that literally have GBs worth of videos. You can rip the redbook audio out of many PSOne games and be left with a game that is <50 MB in size when the original game was actually >600 MB.

Just look at past generations. The N64 was very limited compared to the PSOne in terms of storage, yet some of the best games of that generation were on the N64. The Cube also has limited storage compared to the PS2/XBox.

I personally don't think it will make any difference. When all is said and done I'm sure we may see a couple of games on two DVDs on the 360 that were on one Blu-Ray disc for the PS3 (again, see the Cube for reference), but they will be very few and far between.... and PS3 games won't be any better despite all the extra space.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: BDawg
So which MS cable will support this?

Is it 1080p/60 like Sony or 1080/30 (which is the same as 1080i)?

When the HDCP flag is enabled, you can use the 1080p output to watch HDDVDs in 540p.

Sounds like component and VGA cables will supports this.

Don't know about 1080p/60 or 30. For movies, it will support the native resolution.

HDCP flag won't be enabled until 2010 or possibly 2012. This is why Sony was willing to release a version of the PS3 without HDMI outs.

THe VGA cable damn well better support it. Now I won't need to stretch on my 24" dell. Sweet! The components look all jaggy, but maybe 1080p would fix that? Oh well.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: BDawg
I don't buy it. Developers will discover great uses for the extra space. People always claim more space isn't needed.

Of course they will, they'll add more FMV.

If they really need more space, they can use 2 DVD-9s. But I think that will be uncommon. Look at the GameCube - 1.5 GB discs and there still weren't very many multi-disc games. Most Xbox games are just DVD-5s, not even DVD-9s.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

Maybe you just suck at reading comprehension. The article states the following for those who had to read Cliff Notes all through high school/college:

1) Xbox 360 will support 1080p as a native format for games if a game designer chooses to write a game for 1080p.
2) HD-DVD add-on will output in 1080p.
3) For games/DVD's that are not 1080p, the user can run 1080p and it will upscale the signal to 1080p just like a DVD player that upscales content to HD resolutions.

This essentially mimics what Sony is doing minus two details.
1) Sony will have HDMI output on some machines while MS has not given any indication that they will provide an HDMI option.
2) The HD-DVD player for the Xbox 360 will only play movies...not games. Games will still be on regular DVDs. This provides a space advantage for Sony games...although one that most games will not need. JRPG's with there heavy use of FMV will most likely be the only games that will take advantage of the space Blu-Ray gives it.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: BDawg
So which MS cable will support this?

Is it 1080p/60 like Sony or 1080/30 (which is the same as 1080i)?

When the HDCP flag is enabled, you can use the 1080p output to watch HDDVDs in 540p.

Sounds like component and VGA cables will supports this.

Don't know about 1080p/60 or 30. For movies, it will support the native resolution.

HDCP flag won't be enabled until 2010 or possibly 2012. This is why Sony was willing to release a version of the PS3 without HDMI outs.

THe VGA cable damn well better support it. Now I won't need to stretch on my 24" dell. Sweet! The components look all jaggy, but maybe 1080p would fix that? Oh well.

The VGA cable already supports upscaling DVDs to 720p. I don't see why they wouldn't support 1080p either.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

 

[five40]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

LOL! You still are believing Sony. I really hope you aren't that stupid. Maybe you've just been away from the news for the last year. As an FYI in case you have been frozen for the last year, Sony has been lying a whole lot lately. Good thing they are shipping millions of units of the PS3 like they said.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: five40

LOL! You still are believing Sony. I really hope you aren't that stupid. Maybe you've just been away from the news for the last year. As an FYI in case you have been frozen for the last year, Sony has been lying a whole lot lately. Good thing they are shipping millions of units of the PS3 like they said.

That's the ratio they are making them in, they used the 360 core sales as the reason, demand is low for low end SKUs.

Bottom line, component can send 1080P, but most TVs cannot do 1080P over component and this is likely to be true in the future do to the prevalence of HDMI. So after saying 1080P isn't needed for a year, they are now doing a 180 (lol) and doing marketing hype to add 1080P as a tack on. The lack of a real digital output is what limits them and there is no way to correct this unless they produce a new SKU.

I would love for them to support 1080P via VGA though, it's how I run my 360 on my 1080P LCD.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

Sure, there might be 1080p games in the works, but realisitically, its going to come at a cost.

A) Framerate is lower at 1080p than at 720p for obvious reasons. Similar to when the high res n64 games came out - sure, it was sharper, but the frame rate was ALWAYS lower.
B) Framerate is artifically locked to be the same at 720p as 1080p, as not to make the 1080p version seem worse, resulting in a waste of performance. Seems to me many x360 titles are like this. Chugging a bit in HD, but still chugging in 480p? Strange.
C) The game itself is designed around 1080p, leading to a loss off efficiency when it could have looked better for the vast majority of people if it was designed around 720p. All of you non-hd 360 owners can rejoice in the fact that the games would probably look better at 480p if they didnt have to worry about 720p.

There is no free lunch with this. 1080p is more of a fringe marketing feature than a truely enriching one for the vast majority of people.

The most obvious route to take? Target 720p, downscale for 480p and upscale for 1080p. The difference is marginal, and everyone, including marketing, is happy.

I've got nothing against native 1080p, but its not ready yet.

 

[randay]

You do realise that Microsoft isn't giving this to us, they've kept it FROM us! "simple software upgrade" ??? Yeah why not just make the fvcken things with it off the shelves? I must say though it was a nice move by Microsoft, they are thinking 2 steps ahead.

 

[Nutdotnet]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

A fanboy calling other's fanboys...where, real smart there buddy!

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

HD-DVD is 1080p not upscaled as well. HDMI is not necessary for 1080p. Granted only a few HDTVs can accept 1080p via component but how many can accept 1080p over DVI/VGA?

I think the only "true 1080p" PS3 games in the works right now are an unimpressive looking Virtua Tennis 3 and a GranTurismo HD version that looks just like the last PS2 GranTurismo game just at a higher resolution. Resistance: Fall of Man is shooting for 1080p but I think it looks impressive enough at 720p.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

VGA cables can do 1080p... i've been doing it for about 7 years with my Sony GDM-FW900 (well, 1920x1200 in fact!)

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: five40

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Todd33
This info is confusing at best.

They will scale the internal 720P to 1080P and call it 1080P? Over component? What about VGA cable users who are limited to 1378x768? What about people who cannot do 1080P via component? It's sounds like marketing FUD to try to steal Sony's thunder. The PS3 is doing real 1080P via HDMI, a digital cable. Blu-ray isn't upscaled crap, it's real 1080P. Nice try MS.

In all fairness, IIRC the actual PS3 games will be rendered in 720p and upscaled, and only the $599 version of the PS3 includes HDMI capability.

That's not "fairness" that fanboy rumors. There are true 1080P games in the works and the system supports it as an option, not a fake tack on. Devs can chose 720P or 1080P depending on how much horsepower they can spare. Blu-ray is of course 1080P, not upscaled. Sony stated already that the ratio of low end to high end is going to be 20%-80%, so most PS3 owner will have HDMI, unlike 0% of 360 owners.

I know it's all the rage to bash Sony and the PS3, but the fanboys are getting sad with all the FUD. Let the system come out and then judge it.

LOL! You still are believing Sony. I really hope you aren't that stupid. Maybe you've just been away from the news for the last year. As an FYI in case you have been frozen for the last year, Sony has been lying a whole lot lately. Good thing they are shipping millions of units of the PS3 like they said.

Don't forget that sony has the power of clairvoyance, and know exactly what their customers are going to buy. They're so good at it, they managed to completely dominate the electronics market with products such as betamax, memory stick, minidisc, atrac etc. I expect they will have similar success with the psp, ps3 and blu-ray.

 

[mrrman]

Originally posted by: xtreme26
sigh, i hope sony doesn't really die in the console market

I hope they do

 

[Anubis]

its still pointless as 80% of their userbase doesnt own a TV that can even do it

i most likely wont own a HDTV or any sort untill im forced to