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YAMST - Santa Clarita, CA High School

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,942
126
How many ways are there to kill a person, other than use a gun? Better find a way to eliminate those too. Rational arguments are not in some people's wheel house. Something is making these people choose a weapon, then kill others. Better get that one figured out.
ok, boomer.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,552
3,320
126
Your entire approach is based on the belief that more guns == more murders. This is supported by looking at Australia's bans and the ensuing drop in gun murders. This is contradicted by the increase in the amounts of guns in the U.S. during the same time period (AND the concurrent expiration of the assault rifle ban), which was accompanied with a similar drop in gun murders. This tells me that there are bigger variables at play in gun murder rates than simply the number of guns or access to guns or bans on types of guns.
"When you've begun to think like a gun
The rest of the year has already gone
When you've begun to think like a gun
The days of the year have suddenly gone."

- John Cale, "Gun"

Gun
John Cale
Me and my partner we work on the run
The quick try to get quicker
And the creepers get hung
Now it's you that got wasted tonight on the job
One lost his liquor
And the other lost his hand
Ten sticky thumb prints on the door and the sink
But nothin' saw nothin' - just smell the stink
Five hundred mugshots and a hundred to one
Four forgotten and the rest just won't come
When you've begun to think like a gun
The rest of the year has already gone
When you've begun to think like a gun
The days of the year have suddenly gone
blood on the windows and blood on the walls
Blood on the ceiling and down in the halls
And the papers keep downing on everything I burned
And the people getting restless but they'll never learn
I picked up a doctor - he's good with a knife
Says…

 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,552
3,320
126
How many ways are there to kill a person, other than use a gun? Better find a way to eliminate those too. Rational arguments are not in some people's wheel house. Something is making these people choose a weapon, then kill others. Better get that one figured out.
Oh, but most of those ways are so messy or difficult. Guns as so easy, they're tempting. I mean look... knives have all kinds of uses. You look at a knife and don't automatically think "this is to either kill or threaten to kill." Or a machete, or a brick, or a car.
All those can kill, but guns have a very special place in the Hall of Homicide!
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,180
2,750
136
If guns are only for or even mainly for killing, then why are they almost always used for something else? As in a tenth of a percent rounding error from being zero? Either that's not why people get guns or guns are shit at doing their "job".
Today I learned that shovels are not mainly for digging, but leaning against walls.
Today I learned that toasters are not for making toast, but sitting on cabinets.
Today I learned that brains are not for thinking, but mostly for making fallacious arguments.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,552
3,320
126
Today I learned that shovels are not mainly for digging, but leaning against walls.
Today I learned that toasters are not for making toast, but sitting on cabinets.
Today I learned that brains are not for thinking, but mostly for making fallacious arguments.
Well said! I think I'll go shoot my toaster. Oh, it's got its hands up! Nothing to see here...
 
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Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,674
366
136
Today I learned that shovels are not mainly for digging, but leaning against walls.
Today I learned that toasters are not for making toast, but sitting on cabinets.
Today I learned that brains are not for thinking, but mostly for making fallacious arguments.
Almost every shovel ever made has shoveled. It can be logically said that shovels are for shoveling.
Almost every toaster ever made has toasted. It can be logically said that toasters are for toasting.
Not gonna touch the brain comment because it was a backhanded attempt at a personal attack.

Almost every gun ever made has been used to shoot bullets. It can be logically said that guns are for shooting bullets.
Almost no gun has been used to kill humans. It can not logically said that guns are for killing humans.

Edit: You seem to be unwilling to use your login on your own items. Leaning against walls an sitting on cabinets are where we PLACE the tools. Not what we USE them for. What are those tools used for? Do we say that's what they are for because that's how we use them? Yes. Do we say that's what guns are for because that's how we use them? You do. Why, when an individual one has an astronomically low chance of ever being used for that?
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
Almost every shovel ever made has shoveled. It can be logically said that shovels are for shoveling.
Almost every toaster ever made has toasted. It can be logically said that toasters are for toasting.
Not gonna touch the brain comment because it was a backhanded attempt at a personal attack.

Almost every gun ever made has been used to shoot bullets. It can be logically said that guns are for shooting bullets.
Almost no gun has been used to kill humans. It can not logically said that guns are for killing humans.

Edit: You seem to be unwilling to use your login on your own items. Leaning against walls an sitting on cabinets are where we PLACE the tools. Not what we USE them for. What are those tools used for? Do we say that's what they are for because that's how we use them? Yes. Do we say that's what guns are for because that's how we use them? You do. Why, when an individual one has an astronomically low chance of ever being used for that?
Why do people want the ability to shoot bullets, do you reckon?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,180
2,750
136
Almost every shovel ever made has shoveled. It can be logically said that shovels are for shoveling.
Almost every toaster ever made has toasted. It can be logically said that toasters are for toasting.
Not gonna touch the brain comment because it was a backhanded attempt at a personal attack.

Almost every gun ever made has been used to shoot bullets. It can be logically said that guns are for shooting bullets.
Almost no gun has been used to kill humans. It can not logically said that guns are for killing humans.

Edit: You seem to be unwilling to use your login on your own items. Leaning against walls an sitting on cabinets are where we PLACE the tools. Not what we USE them for. What are those tools used for? Do we say that's what they are for because that's how we use them? Yes. Do we say that's what guns are for because that's how we use them? You do. Why, when an individual one has an astronomically low chance of ever being used for that?
So you are really doubling down on this silly argument that guns are really just complex hole punches and their main purpose is to make wholes in paper?

If you agree with that then we have a really simple solution. Remove most of the power of guns. You can punch holes in paper with a considerable less dangerous implement. Lets say limit firearms to just air powered pellet guns? Those will do an admirable job of punching holes in paper.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,218
1,064
126
Almost every gun ever made has been used to shoot bullets. It can be logically said that guns are for shooting bullets.
And why would someone shoot bullets? What do you want the bullets to do once they leave the gun?

Guns were invented for ONE purpose, to kill things.

Cars, shovels, etc were not expressely invented to kill things, although both can probably be used for that purpose.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,732
13,844
136
The answer to that can be had by look at what they tend to shoot almost every single bullet at. What do you reckon most of them bullets get shot at?
That depends on where & when you look. Modern warfare sends a lot of lead flying & it's not at targets. And whenever militaries shoot at targets, it's just practice for shooting at people. The amount of ammo expended at that worldwide probably dwarfs the amount used by range shooters & hunters put together. Guns have always been for killing, either wild animals or other people. I mean, wtf do you think- that the first guns were invented as toys? They weren't-

 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,674
366
136
So you are really doubling down on this silly argument that guns are really just complex hole punches and their main purpose is to make wholes in paper?
Someone said the only job of guns was to kill people. I demonstrated that a logical examination of the facts could neither reach that conclusion nor reach the conclusion that the "main" purpose of guns is to kill people. Again I ask, if that is the only or main purpose of a gun, why do almost no guns ever get used this way? Why is this controversial or "silly" in your mind?

If you agree with that then we have a really simple solution. Remove most of the power of guns. You can punch holes in paper with a considerable less dangerous implement. Lets say limit firearms to just air powered pellet guns? Those will do an admirable job of punching holes in paper.
You seem to want me to erroneously believe that guns are mainly for killing and then if you can't prove it to me you change the argument to guns shouldn't be so powerful. Are you going to admit that guns aren't mostly for killing? If not, then how to you reconcile that with how guns are actually used when they are used?
 
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Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,674
366
136
That depends on where & when you look. Modern warfare sends a lot of lead flying & it's not at targets. And whenever militaries shoot at targets, it's just practice for shooting at people. The amount of ammo expended at that worldwide probably dwarfs the amount used by range shooters & hunters put together. Guns have always been for killing, either wild animals or other people. I mean, wtf do you think- that the first guns were invented as toys? They weren't-

I thought we were discussing civilian gun ownership and what civilians do with their guns. How did this turn into a discussion about what the military shoots at? Yes, the military kills people with guns. I am mildly disappointed we took the discussion this way.
 
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Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
Why do people want the ability to shoot bullets, do you reckon?
Are you trying to imply that gun owners buy their gun with the intent to commit murder? That would totally ignore the fact that the overwhelmingly HUGE majority of guns in civilian hands are ever used to hurt anyone, let alone murder.
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
And I'll take this a step further. You and others keep implying that "killing things" is somehow bad. That's bullshit.

Hunting is a perfectly legit activity. And, believe it or not, there are (thankfully) very rare occasions when killing a human being in self-defense is perfectly legal, moral and the proper thing to do.

Hopefully, you and I will never need to do so. Maybe you believe the cops will always be there if you are unlucky enough to have your life endangered by an attacker. Maybe you choose to not have the means to defend yourself. Maybe you don't have a fire extinguisher on hand because you've never had a fire in your house. Good for you and I respect your choice. But you have no right to deprive me and my family of the right to self-defense when it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop illegal gun violence.

I don't know why legal and law abiding gun owners even entertain this debate with you self-righteous folks who think you can blame us for the acts of evil/criminal/sick individuals, and use that to justify we surrender our 2A rights.
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
The answer to that can be had by look at what they tend to shoot almost every single bullet at. What do you reckon most of them bullets get shot at?
Fallacious.
Are you trying to imply that gun owners buy their gun with the intent to commit murder? That would totally ignore the fact that the overwhelmingly HUGE majority of guns in civilian hands are ever used to hurt anyone, let alone murder.
Disingenuous.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
And I'll take this a step further. You and others keep implying that "killing things" is somehow bad. That's bullshit.

Hunting is a perfectly legit activity. And, believe it or not, there are (thankfully) very rare occasions when killing a human being in self-defense is perfectly legal, moral and the proper thing to do.

Hopefully, you and I will never need to do so. Maybe you believe the cops will always be there if you are unlucky enough to have your life endangered by an attacker. Maybe you choose to not have the means to defend yourself. Maybe you don't have a fire extinguisher on hand because you've never had a fire in your house. Good for you and I respect your choice. But you have no right to deprive me and my family of the right to self-defense when it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop illegal gun violence.

I don't know why legal and law abiding gun owners even entertain this debate with you self-righteous folks who think you can blame us for the acts of evil/criminal/sick individuals, and use that to justify we surrender our 2A rights.
There's too much fear and aggression here.

Your 2A rights aren't magic. They're granted by people and can be taken away by people. If enough people say no one gets to have a gun, then no one gets to have one. You really going to ignore a buyback program and become a criminal to hold onto a gun? What imbues this specific object with so much sway over you?
 

Paladin3

Diamond Member
Mar 5, 2004
4,933
877
126
There's too much fear and aggression here.

Your 2A rights aren't magic. They're granted by people and can be taken away by people. If enough people say no one gets to have a gun, then no one gets to have one. You really going to ignore a buyback program and become a criminal to hold onto a gun? What imbues this specific object with so much sway over you?
Yawn, heard it before. There is nothing disingenuous about the fact that you are full of shit. And don't have the votes. What's so magical about your opinion that makes it more valid than democracy and the simple concept of due process that this country is founded upon. You can't hold the many responsible for the actions of the tiny few.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
Yawn, heard it before. There is nothing disingenuous about the fact that you are full of shit. And don't have the votes. What's so magical about your opinion that makes it more valid than democracy and the simple concept of due process that this country is founded upon. You can't hold the many responsible for the actions of the tiny few.
No true gun owner, right?
 
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balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
4,644
1,008
136
Yawn, heard it before. There is nothing disingenuous about the fact that you are full of shit. And don't have the votes. What's so magical about your opinion that makes it more valid than democracy and the simple concept of due process that this country is founded upon. You can't hold the many responsible for the actions of the tiny few.
My niece in high school had a gun pointed at her two weeks ago and just the other day my nephew in middle school had to stay home because of a bomb threat. We live no where close to a large city. Enjoy your "right" while you can because these kids are growing up in fear and they will be of voting age very soon.

Edit: If you were smart you should do everything possible to keep guns out of the hands of those that can't handle them.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
26,812
7,107
136
Are you trying to imply that gun owners buy their gun with the intent to commit murder? That would totally ignore the fact that the overwhelmingly HUGE majority of guns in civilian hands are ever used to hurt anyone, let alone murder.
No, they buy them for protection. Protection from humans, usually.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
7,148
949
126
Coming out now that the shooter used a ghost gun. Police are still investigating how he got it. His deceased father had several registered and unregistered guns. They don't know if it was one of his or the shooter ordered parts online and built it.


 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,732
13,844
136
Coming out now that the shooter used a ghost gun. Police are still investigating how he got it. His deceased father had several registered and unregistered guns. They don't know if it was one of his or the shooter ordered parts online and built it.


Yeh, ghost guns are all the rage out there on the fringe. It could be shut down readily by banning the sale of 80% lower receivers. They're not a gun, so they're unregulated. Given that, banning their sale wouldn't violate anybody's right to own guns.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
7,148
949
126
Yeh, ghost guns are all the rage out there on the fringe. It could be shut down readily by banning the sale of 80% lower receivers. They're not a gun, so they're unregulated. Given that, banning their sale wouldn't violate anybody's right to own guns.



Agreed, along with the 3D printer guns.
 

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