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YAMST - Santa Clarita, CA High School

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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,935
2,332
126
I think society is getting more fucked up. There's more people who have been dealt a bad hand in life without a way out. Much higher percentage of families where nobody is home with the kids, all parents have to work to make ends meet. I don't have the statistics, but I figure there are more guns around now, too. We should fix all that stuff, but the low hanging fruit is to get the guns out of people's hands, cupboards, glove compartments, backpacks.

We have intractable problems. "An Inconvenient Truth" was IMO a watershed moment. Gore put the climate crisis in relief. Of course, it was there already, he didn't create that. But intractable problems only make things worse. We have an administration that is in denial. The party in power (senate and the white house) are in denial, almost all of them. How could we not have societal chaos now?
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
50,585
3,339
126
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
This many weapons have not always "been there" though. There are way more guns in circulation now than 2 decades ago.

I'm not saying that is the ONLY thing that has changed, but such easy access to weapons definitely has a lot to do with it.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,169
1,105
136
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
I'd say the most likely issue is the record levels of income inequality. When we are looking at the first generation in history that is predicted to be worse off financially than their parents, it doesn't lead to optimism. Additionally, when parents have to work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet, it leaves less time for parenting. In addition, when parents are perpetually stressed over finances, it leads to worse parenting. Tack the influences of social media onto that as well. Mix in an unhealthy obsession with guns, a readily available supply of guns, and mix it all together, and you don't get good results.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,155
2,730
136
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
Overall our society is getting more stressful, but probably the largest factor is simply that there are more of us. There has always been some of this, so it was always a thing that could happen. As you get more people there is a bigger chance that it will happen any given day. At some point that chance becomes high enough that you guarantee that it happens regularly even with nothing else changing.

Not only is there a bigger chance that it will happen, but when it does it affects more people. My graduating class in high school was 451 people and was touted as the biggest my school district ever had. Now my stepson will graduate from a class of 4000. His school has a population north of 15,000 students.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
That's possible, but mass murder isn't a normal situational response from a teenager. Back in the dark ages when you and I went to school this never happened. Now it's common, what changed?
You don't see the escalation, eh?

The response to Columbine was nothing. Sandy Hook, nothing.

This is their world. You didn't grow up with this. They are and this is the response that's being generated.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,340
7,025
136
More information coming out about the shooter. Salient points:

1. His dad was an "avid hunter" and used to "make bullets." Although his dad died of a heart attack 2 years ago, it is very likely the dads' guns were still in the house.
2. His dad was a "chronic alcoholic."
3. Two years before the dad died, he was "arrested amid a domestic dispute with the boy's mother."

Translation: his dad was an alcoholic wife beater. With guns.

 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,340
7,025
136
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
He was raised by a (likely) violent alcoholic. Certainly didn't help he had guns in the house. Had he not, the boy would likely have not been able to get ahold of one.

Reminds me a bit of Adam Lanza. His mother was a mentally ill survivalist freak who had lots of guns in the house.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,941
126
Oh, that really would have helped. He opened fire in the courtyard, not a classroom. He just pulled the pistol from his backpack and started shooting kids. It was all over in probably 30 seconds.
16 seconds actually. The idea that a good guy with a gun stops this stuff is a red herring.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,941
126
More information coming out about the shooter. Salient points:

1. His dad was an "avid hunter" and used to "make bullets." Although his dad died of a heart attack 2 years ago, it is very likely the dads' guns were still in the house.
2. His dad was a "chronic alcoholic."
3. Two years before the dad died, he was "arrested amid a domestic dispute with the boy's mother."

Translation: his dad was an alcoholic wife beater. With guns.

No true gun owner...
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,935
2,332
126
You don't see the escalation, eh?

The response to Columbine was nothing. Sandy Hook, nothing.

This is their world. You didn't grow up with this. They are and this is the response that's being generated.
Escalation of what? What threat are these kids under that they think killing is the solution? What kid decides that his birthday present to himself will be mass murder?
This isn't some kid smoking cigarettes or copping a beer out of 7 eleven, he took a weapon from his house, loaded it, brought it to school, and opened fire on his classmates, then himself. That isn't sane. It's an act that's absolutely selfish, it's the act of a seriously disturbed mind. I'd like to know what happened to that mind, I'd like to know if it's prentavable, or curable. Maybe he was simply a seriously fucked up kid that spent his spare time torturing kittens, if that's the case I'd like to know that as well.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,660
352
136
This many weapons have not always "been there" though. There are way more guns in circulation now than 2 decades ago.

I'm not saying that is the ONLY thing that has changed, but such easy access to weapons definitely has a lot to do with it.
Despite more guns in circulation, there are fewer gun murders today than there were 2 decades ago. Society is less violent today than it was 2-3 decades ago. Something else is going on. I want to echo a previous poster who wondered if mind altering drugs were involved. At this point we don't know. They have been involved in so many of the high profile school shootings over the last decade or 2.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,340
7,025
136
Despite more guns in circulation, there are fewer gun murders today than there were 2 decades ago. Society is less violent today than it was 2-3 decades ago. Something else is going on. I want to echo a previous poster who wondered if mind altering drugs were involved. At this point we don't know. They have been involved in so many of the high profile school shootings over the last decade or 2.
It's difficult to explain. There is a drop in the overall murder rate over the past 25 years, but public mass shootings are WAY up. When you look at these killers, it's tough to see the pattern. One is an Islamic extremist. Another, a white supremacist. Another has a personal grudge against co-workers. Another is against abortion. Another is a sick troubled kid with bad parents.

There's some copycatting going on right now, where mass shooters are inspiring other mass shooters. Beyond that, it's hard to say.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,155
2,730
136
Despite more guns in circulation, there are fewer gun murders today than there were 2 decades ago. Society is less violent today than it was 2-3 decades ago. Something else is going on. I want to echo a previous poster who wondered if mind altering drugs were involved. At this point we don't know. They have been involved in so many of the high profile school shootings over the last decade or 2.
The trouble with that theory is that mind altering drugs are not new either, so that could not explain any raise in rates either.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,660
352
136
The trouble with that theory is that mind altering drugs are not new either, so that could not explain any raise in rates either.
Mind altering drugs as a whole are not new but their usage rates have skyrocketed.

Edit: Prescription mind altering drugs.
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,660
352
136
It's difficult to explain. There is a drop in the overall murder rate over the past 25 years, but public mass shootings are WAY up. When you look at these killers, it's tough to see the pattern. One is an Islamic extremist. Another, a white supremacist. Another has a personal grudge against co-workers. Another is against abortion. Another is a sick troubled kid with bad parents.

There's some copycatting going on right now, where mass shooters are inspiring other mass shooters. Beyond that, it's hard to say.
I agree, it is hard to say. One thing that never surprises my anymore is when I learn that the shooter was currently or had recently stopped using mind altering prescription drugs. Usually associated with anti depression. It could easily be confirmation bias, but I feel like there is a pattern being established. Yet nobody seems to want to deal with the root of the problem.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,941
126
Escalation of what? What threat are these kids under that they think killing is the solution? What kid decides that his birthday present to himself will be mass murder?
This isn't some kid smoking cigarettes or copping a beer out of 7 eleven, he took a weapon from his house, loaded it, brought it to school, and opened fire on his classmates, then himself. That isn't sane. It's an act that's absolutely selfish, it's the act of a seriously disturbed mind. I'd like to know what happened to that mind, I'd like to know if it's prentavable, or curable. Maybe he was simply a seriously fucked up kid that spent his spare time torturing kittens, if that's the case I'd like to know that as well.
You're still not adjusting the context to the present. You're looking through a lens of your youth, or even a generation later, but not the present.

I mean, no shit, a mass murderer is insane, but insane people have existed all the time, too... so what could it be that enables these children to do this...?

Because if you're serious about prevention, then I hope you'll consider removing guns from society.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,193
3,125
126
You're still not adjusting the context to the present. You're looking through a lens of your youth, or even a generation later, but not the present.

I mean, no shit, a mass murderer is insane, but insane people have existed all the time, too... so what could it be that enables these children to do this...?

Because if you're serious about prevention, then I hope you'll consider removing guns from society.
It really is the answer. People don't want to believe it, but it's totally obvious. The obvious is sometimes the hardest thing to convince people of. Or haven't you noticed?
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,193
3,125
126
The shooter has died, so we may never know the why for this one.

People are obsessed with knowing why, to find "the motive." That whole concept is severely flawed. It shows a pitiful lack of understanding of human nature. Even if he hadn't died, if he'd made a "full recovery," we may have gotten virtually no idea in terms of the nature of what happened with this kid. They'd ask the kid, say 3 months later when he was coherent and healthy, "what were you thinking? Why did you do it? His answers even if completely forthright and not evasive may have given little idea about his state of mind yesterday morning at 7:30AM or the days leading up to the incident.

He was obviously intent on killing himself after taking out as many kids as possible because he counted his bullets, had it in his head, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, now shoot yourself in the head.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
29,193
3,125
126
The weapons have always been there, the trigger events have always been there, it's the response that has changed, and that's what needs to be looked at. We have children that commit mass murder, and the common response is to deny them the tools they need for killing. Why aren't we also looking at what's wrong with the kids? If were raising killers, we're clearly doing something wrong. I'd like to know what that something is.
Put a cupcake in front of a hungry kid, what happens? He eats it. Put a gun in front of an angry kid, he just might use it. Simple as that, mister.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,340
7,025
136
I don't think you can. I don't think it can be done.
Sadly, I agree with you. Any attempt at mass gun confiscation would result in political violence that would make Waco and Ruby Ridge look like nothing. There are evidently guys who have stockpiled many, many assault rifles.

The truly sad part is that the NRA has won already. It has served the interest of its benefactor, the fire arms industry, buy letting them sell hundreds of millions of guns to private citizen for massive profit. This success then becomes a self-sustaining rationale for not trying to solve the problem, which necessarily must include confiscation of all or at least most of the firearms in private hands. Which, as I said, I agree would have terrible consequences.
 

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