YAIPT: Yet another Israeli / Palestinean thread...

[gopunk]

sorry but i have a question that i have not seen the answer to in other threads (they might be there, but those things are all giant messes).

i have heard many people say that israel should pull out of occupied territories. now correct me if i'm mistaken, but wasn't that the way it was before, when israel was getting attacked repeatedly (not recently, but many years ago)? if they weren't satisfied with it then, why would they be now? or do you think the palestineans have been beaten to the point where they would be happy with just going back to the way things were before israel invaded and occupied those territories?

also, i know that palestine was divided into jewish and arab sectors by the british when they had control over it. then when the mandate expired, the jewish sector declared their share to be the country of israel. now i guess people refer to the other sector as palestine, but i have also heard people say that palestine is not a country. so if that is true, what do we call that other sector?

 

[gopunk]

anybody?

 

[Czar]

I dont think that anyone can be beaten so far down that he will just be happy and accept that he was beaten to a pulp.

 

[gopunk]

<< I dont think that anyone can be beaten so far down that he will just be happy and accept that he was beaten to a pulp. >>



i don't think so either. which is why the solution of just going back to the way things were before israel invaded and occupied those territories, doesn't strike me as a particularly good one.

 

[NetworkDad]

If i remember reading correctly a few years ago, palestine is not a country. In fact, the word palestine never came into existence until the mid 50's.

The palestine people (arabs) have no right to claim on Israeli land, as the Jewish Israels have occupied it for over 3,000 years.

 

[gopunk]

<< If i remember reading correctly a few years ago, palestine is not a country. In fact, the word palestine never came into existence until the mid 50's. >>



okay if it's not a country, what is it? is that area just nameless land?

 

[Russ]

gopunk,

You are not mistaken. Take note, also, of how Czar once again completely avoided addressing the real issue contained within your post.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< okay if it's not a country, what is it? is that area just nameless land? >>



It is nothing more then a political construct.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Czar]

<< If i remember reading correctly a few years ago, palestine is not a country. In fact, the word palestine never came into existence until the mid 50's.

The palestine people (arabs) have no right to claim on Israeli land, as the Jewish Israels have occupied it for over 3,000 years. >>


I found old maps on the net dated around 1850 that called the land Palestine

 

[gopunk]

<<

<< okay if it's not a country, what is it? is that area just nameless land? >>



It is nothing more then a political construct. >>



you've lost me

 

[Czar]

<< gopunk,

You are not mistaken. Take note, also, of how Czar once again completely avoided addressing the real issue contained within your post.

Russ, NCNE >>


Now now, I only addressed what I thought people wouldnt address judging from all nearly all the previous threads about this issue. There are plenty of other people who will tell you alot of about the other things.

 

[NetworkDad]

<<

<< If i remember reading correctly a few years ago, palestine is not a country. In fact, the word palestine never came into existence until the mid 50's.

The palestine people (arabs) have no right to claim on Israeli land, as the Jewish Israels have occupied it for over 3,000 years. >>


I found old maps on the net dated around 1850 that called the land Palestine >>




The palestinians can call it whatever they like. They have no claim to that land at all though. I remember hearing someone in a speech once about Israel and the middle east, they have been in 7 wars. None of them were initiated by Israel, and Israel has never lost. I'll find a link soon, and try to back up that claim.

 

[gopunk]

ok so we can pretty much agree that the whole issue of what to call that land is confusing at best? i just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something obvious.

or is it that the area is just called palestine, like the "midwest" here in the states?

 

[Russ]

<< << okay if it's not a country, what is it? is that area just nameless land? >>

It is nothing more then a political construct. >>

you've lost me >>



Gopunk,

There is no such country as "Palestine", and no such people as "Palestinians". It is a fabricated group comprised of Arabs from multiple countries surrounding Israel - most of whom have demonstrated quite clearly their wish to see Israel and it's people eradicated.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Czar]

<< The palestinians can call it whatever they like. They have no claim to that land at all though. I remember hearing someone in a speech once about Israel and the middle east, they have been in 7 wars. None of them were initiated by Israel, and Israel has never lost. I'll find a link soon, and try to back up that claim. >>


Then what about before Isreael was created? didnt the "palestinians" live there and had been living there for hundreds of years, isnt that enough as a claim for the land?
And if that is not enough, then why does Isreal have any more claim than the palestinians?

 

[Czar]

<< Gopunk,

There is no such country as "Palestine", and no such people as "Palestinians". It is a fabricated group comprised of Arabs from multiple countries surrounding Israel - most of whom have demonstrated quite clearly their wish to see Israel and it's people eradicated.

Russ, NCNE >>


Then who are the people living there? are those few millions just an imagination?

 

[Russ]

<< or is it that the area is just called palestine, like the "midwest" here in the states? >>



Gopunk,

An excellent analogy! It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

<< << Gopunk,

There is no such country as "Palestine", and no such people as "Palestinians". It is a fabricated group comprised of Arabs from multiple countries surrounding Israel - most of whom have demonstrated quite clearly their wish to see Israel and it's people eradicated.

Russ, NCNE >>

Then who are the people living there? are those few millions just an imagination? >>



Uh, duh, Czar. Try reading what you just quoted back. Are you that bereft of intellect?

Russ, NCNE

 

[gopunk]

There is no such country as "Palestine", and no such people as "Palestinians". It is a fabricated group comprised of Arabs from multiple countries surrounding Israel - most of whom have demonstrated quite clearly their wish to see Israel and it's people eradicated.

don't get me wrong, i *want* to believe you, i really do, but i have been looking at encarta, and tehy talk about how muslim armies invaded palestine in 638, and how eventually the majority of those people converted to islam.

so i guess what i ask is, is encarta lying? or are we talking a different group of people?


okay i think i see what you're getting at (i read your most recent post)...

 

[NetworkDad]

<<

<< The palestinians can call it whatever they like. They have no claim to that land at all though. I remember hearing someone in a speech once about Israel and the middle east, they have been in 7 wars. None of them were initiated by Israel, and Israel has never lost. I'll find a link soon, and try to back up that claim. >>


Then what about before Isreael was created? didnt the "palestinians" live there and had been living there for hundreds of years, isnt that enough as a claim for the land?
And if that is not enough, then why does Isreal have any more claim than the palestinians? >>




I've already said that the Jewish Israeli's have already lived there and owned the state of Israel for over 3000 years. There was no palestine before that.

 

[Russ]

<< about how muslim armies invaded palestine in 638 >>



Yes, and during the Civil war the South invaded the North. That didn't make the North a different country. You already answered your own question with your Midwest analogy.

BTW, the coding of Encarta is supervised by the PC Police.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Czar]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/palaestina_1849.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/history_middle_east.html

[Palestine] Palaestina (645K)
From "A Classical Atlas, to Illustrate Ancient Geography; Comprised in Twenty-Five maps, Showing the Various Divisions of the World as Known to the Ancients; Composed from the Most Authentic Sources." by Alexander G. Findlay, F.R.G.S. 1849.

 

[Capn]

<< I've already said that the Jewish Israeli's have already lived there and owned the state of Israel for over 3000 years. There was no palestine before that. >>



You need to brush up on your history. The turks controlled the area about 700 years ago up until WW1 when the British took over, then they handed it over for a Jewish state after WW2.

 

[Russ]

Czar,

I can show you maps of many places all over the world - that does not make them a country, or a people. Palestine has never been a country, never had a government, and the Palestinians are not a people. Palestine is a "region", and the people in that region are mainly Jordanians who call themselves "Palestinians".

Russ, NCNE

 

[gopunk]

regarding the maps, i am beginning to think more and more that palestine is the equivalent of something like "mesopotamia".... never was a country, but rather a name given to a region... "mesopotamia" was placed on maps too