YAHTQ: Has anyone made the move to separate amps? Thoughts?

[MichaelD]

Hi all,

Like a lot of you, I'm really into my HT. I've got the DVD setup/test discs, I calibrate my TV and set my speaker levels with a db meter...all that.

I've got a fairly new Kenwood receiver. Kenwood VR-409 that I really like. It pushes 100 watts RMS per channel, all channels driven.

It gets pretty loud and clean, being that I have the main fronts crossed over at 80Hz; everything below that goes to a Cerwin Vega 15" HT sub. The fronts play a bit louder than the 100watts would have you believe being that they have been relieved of "bass duties."

Sometimes though under lengthy dynamic material, the amp sounds like it's straining a little. I do like it loud.

I've been considering using the amps preouts to go thru some professional PA amps. Like Crown, QSC, etc.

I cannot afford $10K for outboard amplification: I'd love to have a rack full of Rotel amps and such, but that's a dreamworld for me.

Have you gone "outboard?" What equipment do you have? Cost? What do you think of the amps on this page?

 

[richardycc]

you can find used rotel 2 ch amp for way under $500.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I also have a Kenwood receiver, but it cranks enough volume and clarity for me. You will definitely be able to change the sound of your setup by adding a second amp, but I would advise checking refurbs for cost savings and getting some solid reviews before taking that plunge. I personally think it's a waste of money with my setup, but you may have a nicer setup.

 

[Muadib]

I recently upgraded from a yamaha dsp3090 to a rotel setup. The RMB-1075 that I have now can be had for about $1K. I've seen it on Audiogon used for $650 to $800. It's 120 watts X 5.

 

[MichaelD]

My speakers are nothing special. Except for the sub (CerwinVega) they are all Kenwood. All five are voice-matched. The front three are rated at 110W RMS. The surrounds are rated at 75W RMS (IIRC).

Not to get OT and start a debate (pls don't hijack my thread!) but it's distortion that kills drivers, not overpowering (to a degree!!!)

I.E. 150 watts of clean, undistorted power will probably not blow a speaker rated at 110W as long as you're not playing test tones.

 

[Viper GTS]

I'm starting to go that route, though it will be a long time before I can afford to do it completely.

As of today my sub will be powered by a pro amp, but all my main speakers will still be driven by my Kenwood receiver.

I plan to upgrade all my speakers first, then go the pre/pro + amp(s) route.

Viper GTS

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: Muadib
I recently upgraded from a yamaha dsp3090 to a rotel setup. The RMB-1075 that I have now can be had for about $1K. I've seen it on Audiogon used for $650 to $800. It's 120 watts X 5.

Thanks for the input. Is that RMB-1075 a multi-channel amp or a receiver?

 

[MichaelD]

I'm looking at these. Particularly the DCM-1000.

That four channel one (DCM-1204) would be the ticket, but it doesn't have binding posts! :|

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: MichaelD

Originally posted by: Muadib
I recently upgraded from a yamaha dsp3090 to a rotel setup. The RMB-1075 that I have now can be had for about $1K. I've seen it on Audiogon used for $650 to $800. It's 120 watts X 5.

Thanks for the input. Is that RMB-1075 a multi-channel amp or a receiver?

It's a muti-channel amp. It's 120watts for each of the 5 channels.

 

[MichaelD]

Bump. Be back later.

 

[dr150]

Separate amps is the ONLY way to go for real high fidelity. Improvements included substantially cleaner and deeper bass from your speakers as well as more refined mids and highs, transparancy, soundstage, etc. A good amp can really open up your speakers.

The best bang for the buck these days is Odyssey Audio. Website is: http://www.odysseyaudio.com You can research them at http://www.audioreview.com or at http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=10. Klaus (the owner) takes calls (317-299-5578 )s o you can call him personally at ANY time to discuss your needs. He's currently coming out with the Estian amp for $750. It's supposed to be killer. FYI: Odyssey amps are rated to compete with $10-$15k amps. They are german amps from the ultra expensive and highly touted SYMPHONIC line. They're brought to the USA at STEEP discounts.

FWIW, I would tie an Odyssey amp to your reciever which would act as a preamp/processor. You can then use the reveiver for rear channel and center channel duty. Since the center channel is very important for home theater, I'd get an Odyssey 3 channel amp (HT3 model) and just let the receiver handle rear channels and the Dolby processing.


...................Other killer bang for buck amps are from Van Alstine. Website is: http://www.avahifi.com/
Research them here: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=48


BTW, these amps will absolutely destroy Rotel amps. It's just simply at a different tier.

 

[alkemyst]

most solid state stuff even if semi-cheap (but still along the lines of Yamaha, Kenwood, etc) will perform better than your speakers can usually handle.

My recommendation is speakers first then go to separates (you can use your old reciever for a preamp many times until a nice preamp can be afforded).

My old system was around 1995....i don't want to look up all the numbers but was Rotel 980 120x2, Rotel 120x3(could have been 60x6 too if I wanted that or combinations in between), a RSP-965 something Dolby Pro Logic and handled A/V switching....RT-940 AM-FM tuner, Definitive Techologies BP20's for mains, BP10's for surrounds and CLR1000 center. Marantz for the CD changer and Mits for the VCR/TV.....

 

[dr150]

BTW, if you're looking for truly great bang/buck entry hi-end audiophile speakers, look no further than here:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Main/Intro/Firstpage.asp

The sub they offer (Hsu) is also of extreme high quality.


All this equipment will absolutely TROUNCE every piece of gear you can find at Circuit City, Best Buy, Good Guys, etc..

 

[dr150]

For subs, look no further than here:

http://hsuresearch.com/products/

or

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/

 

[EvilYoda]

I'd also suggest upgrading your speakers before you consider amping them...and QSC and Crown are both good companies, but there are many other more traditional hifi amp manufacturers, such as Acurus, H/K's Citation, Parasound, Marantz, Rotel, Bryston, Classe, Adcom and Carver, all of which sell more affordable amps.

Have fun. I'm personally looking into the H/K Citation line, just so all of my components will be H/K...nice continuity.

 

[MustISO]

I'm thinking about seperates for a 2-channel system. I was looking at NAD, Rotel and ATI amps.

 

[MichaelD]

Wow. Great replies...lots of info to digest. I really appreciate the links.

You really think I need to upgrade my speakers? Hmm. I know they aren't B&W reference quality, but they sound pretty good...a little harsh up top, but not bad at all. Maybe I need to go listen to some better speakers to gain a reference point?

Getting five new speakers is going to be an expensive propostition. Heh, none of my hobbies is cheap.

I'd love a complete set of Klipsch RF-7s..but you're looking at about $10K there. :Q

I will research all the links. Thanks much; greatly appreciated.

 

[alkemyst]

well B&W is a good company what is your actual setup, for loud music separates or a reliable reciever is needed.

That VR-409 is a nice one for the average person, but not for loud listening really. Watts are sort of meaningless as you will see 45WPC amps that will absolutely shake the room in high end audio

Many speakers are capable of 90dB at 1 watt at 1 meter....90dB is the level of a shout. (30dB is a whisper)...rock concert about 120 or so and a jet 140.

10dB is doubling of percieved volume, a 1dB change is the minimum that can be detected and a 3dB change requires double the power to achieve or double the speakers both powered with the same power.....

so with a speaker capable of 90dB 1w/1m:
90dB = 1 watt (shout)
93dB = 2 watts
96dB = 4 watts
99dB = 8 watts
102dB = 16 watts
105dB = 32 watts
108dB = 64 watts
111dB = 128 watts
115dB = 256 watts
118dB = 512 watts (probably back row of a concert)
121dB = 1024 watts (front row seats)
124dB = 2048 watts (still a long way from reproducing a jet )

Roughly 100x the power for each 4x (20dB) the volume.

The first thing you need to determine is how loud do you want to be?

Many will say how do cars hit 140dB and stuff then? it's because they have a built in transfer function (I think that is the correct term) that boosts output several dB.

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
well B&W is a good company what is your actual setup, for loud music separates or a reliable reciever is needed.

That VR-409 is a nice one for the average person, but not for loud listening really. Watts are sort of meaningless as you will see 45WPC amps that will absolutely shake the room in high end audio

Many speakers are capable of 90dB at 1 watt at 1 meter....90dB is the level of a shout. (30dB is a whisper)...rock concert about 120 or so and a jet 140.

10dB is doubling of percieved volume, a 1dB change is the minimum that can be detected and a 3dB change requires double the power to achieve or double the speakers both powered with the same power.....

so with a speaker capable of 90dB 1w/1m:
90dB = 1 watt (shout)
93dB = 2 watts
96dB = 4 watts
99dB = 8 watts
102dB = 16 watts
105dB = 32 watts
108dB = 64 watts
111dB = 128 watts
115dB = 256 watts
118dB = 512 watts (probably back row of a concert)
121dB = 1024 watts (front row seats)
124dB = 2048 watts (still a long way from reproducing a jet )

Roughly 100x the power for each 4x (20dB) the volume.

The first thing you need to determine is how loud do you want to be?

Many will say how do cars hit 140dB and stuff then? it's because they have a built in transfer function (I think that is the correct term) that boosts output several dB.

Thanks much, but I know that stuff already. No offense. I've got about 20 years in car audio background. Those cars and trucks that hit 150+ db have 2" thick arcylic windshields and are built and tuned to play one note at a specific frequency very loudly for about 5 seconds. Not "musical" in the least.

There's a difference b/t "loud" and "clean and loud." To acheive the latter takes wattage. No other way around it. More wattage = headroom. Headroom = ability to play loudly w/o distorting.

I'm researching a lot of things right now.

Looking at the Ascend line right now. I five-speaker set is about $900, shipped. Not bad at all. Will need stands for the front, though. If I do upgrade my speakers first, I will be keeping my Cerwin Vega sub for now. Until I can build my own and power it w/a proper external amp.

 

[dr150]

http://www.axiomaudio.com/

Another great speaker manufacturer. They use titanium tweeters though. Can sound bright to the wrong person or if paired to the wrong equipment. They are highly reputed as the Ascends. I liked them a lot.

 

[EvilYoda]

I always suggest the paradigm lines, as I've gone from the monitor 9s to Studio 40s.

BTW, if you're still set on getting separate amps for your system, Gregg Loewen is selling a bunch of QSC amps for really really good prices on HTF. I'd buy one for my fronts if i could afford it right now...so I'm just kicking myself instead.

 

[zulfi]

Before you buy anything, you should try n listen B&W speakers. Their 300 and 600 series are still within your budget, n they look very nice too .

Regards
Z

 

[glen]

Originally posted by: MichaelD
Thanks much, but I know that stuff already. No offense. I've got about 20 years in car audio background. Those cars and trucks that hit 150+ db have 2" thick arcylic windshields and are built and tuned to play one note at a specific frequency very loudly for about 5 seconds. Not "musical" in the least.

There's a difference b/t "loud" and "clean and loud." To acheive the latter takes wattage. No other way around it. More wattage = headroom. Headroom = ability to play loudly w/o distorting.

I'm researching a lot of things right now.

Looking at the Ascend line right now. I five-speaker set is about $900, shipped. Not bad at all. Will need stands for the front, though. If I do upgrade my speakers first, I will be keeping my Cerwin Vega sub for now. Until I can build my own and power it w/a proper external amp.

The other way around it is surface area.
More surface area makes your speakers more efficient.
The limiting factor in your system is most likely your sub.
I would try changing that out first, rather than last. And, get one that plays LOWER.
(Not to hijack the thread, but your speakers don't know what they are playing, be it Boy George or Led Zeppelin. When you play some WHO CDs with the recorded distortion, they won't "blow" faster. The myth that distortion or "square waves" will blow speakers rather than sheer power is the most persistant myth in audio and is just a sales tactic to sell more expensive amplifiers. How far OUT the speaker travels is the trouble. And, for that matter, "square waves" as distortion is often refed to as, don't exist either. The mass of the drivers, will round the wave a heck of a lot.)

 

[Prong]

You might keep an eye out at UBid for amps. I picked up a NIB Parasound 5 channel (125WPC) amp with the factory 10 year warranty for $415 last year. It seems like they do that every few months (different brands).

 

[dr150]

Originally posted by: zulfi
Before you buy anything, you should try n listen B&W speakers. Their 300 and 600 series are still within your budget, n they look very nice too .

Regards
Z

B&W speakers are overpriced.

Their 600 series is just ok. The bigger models are good for head banging but if one wants refinement, resolution, soundstage, transparency, top-to-bottom unformity, then there are MANY other speaker lines that are more complete at the given price.

The Ascends, for sure, are better. Many B&W owners have traded-in them in for the Ascends. YES, they are THAT good.

IF you go above $1000, then the universe of awesome speakers extend further. But for under $1000, the Ascends are defintely at the top of anyone's list.

Von Schweikert VR1 or JM Reynaud Twins mkII are also universally rated great but are more in the ~$700 category.

Still, I'd go with Ascends with a 5.1 system. No question.

Here Are Some Other Sites to get Your Feet Wet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=88
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/index.php

Btw, you'll find near universal approval of hundreds of owners at this site regarding the Ascends. FYI: currently, the compnay has a 4 week back-order due to their popularity.