Its a good thing for the end-user, but its definitely not something the developer intended or wanted in most cases. Especially when it comes to online gaming. I don't have any problems with modding/hacks to enhance your game experience if its a single player game, but I've had more than a few online gaming experiences tarnished by cheaters and it flat out sucks. Piracy is a serious issue that some game developers have already touched upon.
Its a good thing for the end-user, but its definitely not something the developer intended or wanted in most cases. Especially when it comes to online gaming. I don't have any problems with modding/hacks to enhance your game experience if its a single player game, but I've had more than a few online gaming experiences tarnished by cheaters and it flat out sucks. Piracy is a serious issue that some game developers have already touched upon.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Or do what I did and buy a 37" Westinghouse and use it for your PC and console and movies
Agreed.
That's what I wanted to do at first. I decided not to however since I already have a 50" DLP TV for movies and I live in a 1 bedroom apt with my GF and 37" would just be too big for the space I have.
I think 24" is fine for my 360. I just at my computer desk, lean back in the chair and game till my heart's content. No evil GF telling me to stop playing my 360 cause "I love New York" is on like she did when I used to game on the DLP TV.
in the last few days I have read the following two articles:
5 years in and $5billion down - the Xbox experience:
http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/32642
PC gaming once down, now on the rebound:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/techn...ng.html?_r=1&ref=technology&oref=login
i wouldn't be too quick to write of microsofts support of PC gaming.
for the next three years the consoles will be increasingly obsolete at a time when they want to do everything possible to maintain the only two parts of their business that make money; their operating systems (i.e. Vista), and MSOffice.
sustaining PC gaming will only support the former, and it will allow them to continue to subsidise the Xbox adventure until the shareholders have finally had enough of watching MS pour billions down the drain.
5 years in and $5billion down - the Xbox experience:
http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/32642
PC gaming once down, now on the rebound:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/techn...ng.html?_r=1&ref=technology&oref=login
i wouldn't be too quick to write of microsofts support of PC gaming.
for the next three years the consoles will be increasingly obsolete at a time when they want to do everything possible to maintain the only two parts of their business that make money; their operating systems (i.e. Vista), and MSOffice.
sustaining PC gaming will only support the former, and it will allow them to continue to subsidise the Xbox adventure until the shareholders have finally had enough of watching MS pour billions down the drain.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,758
- 602
- 126
I think you are incorrectly lumping modding and hacking together. While the terms could be used somewhat interchangably, most people refer to mods and user mods...like counterstrike, day of defeat, TFC, etc. Hacking is usually used to describe cheating and can be a real problem, I'll give you that.
But since MS has been creating so many cross platform games, cheating is coming to the xbox 360 platform soon!
I see Vista as the single biggest step forward for PC gaming, for enthusiasts the Games for Windows thing doesn't do a lot but for all the consumers out there who are completely clueless Vista offers the straightforward windows experience score that makes things very simple just look at the numbers. Also the "Tray and Play" feature that is supposed to be part of Halo 2 is big too, for those who don't know, tray and play means that the game installs as you play so you can start playing immediately. Again not something for people who are used to spending 10 minutes installing but it defiantely goes a long way toward making the PC like a console. Then there are parental controls, something that with all the hype Jack Thompson and similar are getting can give parents a bit more piece of mind about the computer. Also IIRC DX10 requires all features to be supported to be DX10 ready this goes a long way toward unifying things so devs don't have to shy away from technologies that are not fully supported by AMD or nVidia. I think Microsoft has really set the stage for the reemergence of PC gaming, the innovations in Vista definitely bring the PC more toward the console and the ball is not in the publisher's court and I tend to think that with Microsoft putting effort in this direction and consoles becoming more PC like we will see the resurgence of PC gaming.
agreed. i am no microsoft fan, but Vista is the future of windows gaming, and DX10 does give me hope and optimism that the future is bright.
that 1st article is terrible, it concentrates entirely on japanese sales.
On top of that, microsoft expected a loss on the original xbox, and it was in the black by the launch of the 360.
The 360 is a very strong contender, it sounds like that guy is just a nintendo fanboy.
His charts include friggin SNES sales.
FIVE POINT FOUR BILLION US DOLLARS IN THE RED
after five years attempting to penetrate the market.
yes they expected to lose money on the xbox, i don't believe they banked on it happening with the 360 too, do you?
remember, MS is a public company with shareholders who expect a return on their investment, do you think they're happy?
there best year was 2005 when they only lost £500 million rather than the usual £1.2 billion, presumably because they had finally amortised the bulk of the development and roll-out cost of the original Xbox. cue 2006 and the new 360 makes its entrance....................... annnddd we're back to losing £1.2 billion again.
going by past performance 2007 and 2008 will also lose £1.2 billion, until the glorious year 2009 where they will only lose another $500 million!
and in 2010 MS can release the Xbox 720 and thus start the whole process again.....
after five years attempting to penetrate the market.
yes they expected to lose money on the xbox, i don't believe they banked on it happening with the 360 too, do you?
remember, MS is a public company with shareholders who expect a return on their investment, do you think they're happy?
there best year was 2005 when they only lost £500 million rather than the usual £1.2 billion, presumably because they had finally amortised the bulk of the development and roll-out cost of the original Xbox. cue 2006 and the new 360 makes its entrance....................... annnddd we're back to losing £1.2 billion again.
going by past performance 2007 and 2008 will also lose £1.2 billion, until the glorious year 2009 where they will only lose another $500 million!
and in 2010 MS can release the Xbox 720 and thus start the whole process again.....
apoppin
Lifer
this current thread pretty much says it all
John Romero says only the Wii will survive - XBox360 and PS3 are *Doomed*
It *covers* the PC leapfrog as well as the PS3 being a *flop* ... and the 360's *failure* in Japan
i think the consoles - except for the Wii - are too little ... too expensive ... too late
:thumbsdown:
PS3 might be a flop as a console (still too early to tell imo), but its already served some of Sony's interests in solidifying Blu-Ray as the next HD format. Read that bit yesterday on DT and BD is just pummeling HD-DVD.
Just loaded up another instance of a PC gaming failure yesterday. Fired up LotR Online since I had a Beta key. A game that had all the resources in the industry and it still looks like poop. Not to say it won't be a huge success, since it is pretty fun and engaging and has the huge LotR brand attached to it, but just another example of a PC product not living up to the hype.
Just loaded up another instance of a PC gaming failure yesterday. Fired up LotR Online since I had a Beta key. A game that had all the resources in the industry and it still looks like poop. Not to say it won't be a huge success, since it is pretty fun and engaging and has the huge LotR brand attached to it, but just another example of a PC product not living up to the hype.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,758
- 602
- 126
I'm not pretending to know where things will play out in the industry here, since right now things at least on the surface look strong for consoles and weak for the PC. Whether two of the big makers are relying on unviable, perpetual money losing business models at this point remains to be seen.
As an aside though, I've noticed that while the delta between PC and console graphical prowess has diminished so has the price delta. I'm not saying PCs are actually the cheaper gaming platform, but I frequently see people say a gaming PC costs "$2000!" and a console costs whatever. The mythical $2000 rig required to play games hasn't existed for some time now. I haven't priced it out, but I've often thought if I didn't want to deal with tinkering to play games I'd just buy a midrange dell, put a little extra memory and stick a fast video card in it to play games. I think I could probably configure such a beast for $800 without much trouble. Very easily if I reused my existing monitor.
Again, I'm not saying that the PC is the cheaper platform. And its definately not easier, consoles now provide a lot of the performance for a lot less hassle. But I do think people doing comparisons often ignore the fact that a gaming PCs cost has gone down a lot (with more of the cost being loaded into the video card) and the comparable consoles cost has clearly increased.
As an aside though, I've noticed that while the delta between PC and console graphical prowess has diminished so has the price delta. I'm not saying PCs are actually the cheaper gaming platform, but I frequently see people say a gaming PC costs "$2000!" and a console costs whatever. The mythical $2000 rig required to play games hasn't existed for some time now. I haven't priced it out, but I've often thought if I didn't want to deal with tinkering to play games I'd just buy a midrange dell, put a little extra memory and stick a fast video card in it to play games. I think I could probably configure such a beast for $800 without much trouble. Very easily if I reused my existing monitor.
Again, I'm not saying that the PC is the cheaper platform. And its definately not easier, consoles now provide a lot of the performance for a lot less hassle. But I do think people doing comparisons often ignore the fact that a gaming PCs cost has gone down a lot (with more of the cost being loaded into the video card) and the comparable consoles cost has clearly increased.
Well, I'd agree with you if the one component that had the greatest impact on your gaming experience didn't often cost as much as a console. Again, this is where a lack of standards, target hardware and quality control hurts the PC. Too much of PC gaming and the video card industry is untapped potential imo.
New cards come out promising all of these hot new features, only to have titles come out late with lackluster visuals and poor performance. STALKER is the best recent example here...a game hyped as the DX9 poster boy and it finally releases on the dawn of DX10. Its barely playable on even the fastest hardware with everything turned up, and those rigs cost considerably more than any console.
It just seems like everything in the PC video card and gaming industry is backwards. Newer, faster cards with more features that are only well-suited to play the last generation games. Consoles on the other hand, you know what you're getting in terms of performance and typically games will only look better as time goes by.
New cards come out promising all of these hot new features, only to have titles come out late with lackluster visuals and poor performance. STALKER is the best recent example here...a game hyped as the DX9 poster boy and it finally releases on the dawn of DX10. Its barely playable on even the fastest hardware with everything turned up, and those rigs cost considerably more than any console.
It just seems like everything in the PC video card and gaming industry is backwards. Newer, faster cards with more features that are only well-suited to play the last generation games. Consoles on the other hand, you know what you're getting in terms of performance and typically games will only look better as time goes by.
apoppin
Lifer
actually it hasn't ...
WalMart has decided in favor of the HD DVD player ... under $300
and Pioneer has launched a ne DVD burner with a MSRP of $300 ... so the war goes on
Sony will fall as a smaller player IF we have another Betamax AND a PS3 flop.
and they *will* fix LotR
saw your 'edit'
here's mine:
the PC is gonna get much more powerful and cheaper and the games will get MUCH more demanding and far more detailed than ANY current console.
where does that leave the console as a "PC wannabe"
Originally posted by: apoppin
actually it hasn't ...
WalMart has decided in favor of the HD DVD player ... under $300
and Pioneer has launched a ne DVD burner with a MSRP of $300 ... so the war goes on
Sony will fall as a smaller player IF we have another Betamax AND a PS3 flop.
and they *will* fix LotR
None of that will matter though when BD continues to hold the top new movie releases. Similar to the gaming industry, it doesn't matter how hard you push the hardware if the software isn't there to back it up.
Haha, well at least you don't disagree about LotR's looks/performance. I had a nice shadow on the ground and a 2nd shadow floating in the air yesterday in that Silver Mine place.
Character models look average at best right now, some terrain looks really good, some looks like it was rushed (big surprise in the PC gaming industry). Best looking part of the game is the nice sharp avatar text. Edit:
And game developers and hardware makers will still manage to make em run like a pig with too little too late visuals and rushed hack job programming and content.
Well, that was a bit of exaggeration but you get the point. If one party isn't at fault, its the other and the end result is you have no clue what you're going to get when you pull a PC game off the shelf.
apoppin
Lifer
IF BluRay holds the top new movie releases
the Betamax was declared "the winner" ... oh so many years ago
-- and it *was better* ... VHS bulldozed it ... like HD may do
nothing is *final* ... including the console's future as "pc wannabes"
but there is a "disturbing trend" for the consoles ... xbox and PS
the console games have ALSO been released with bugs
xbox360's Shivering Islands has a FATAL bug
:thumbsdown:
the Betamax was declared "the winner" ... oh so many years ago
-- and it *was better* ... VHS bulldozed it ... like HD may do
nothing is *final* ... including the console's future as "pc wannabes"
but there is a "disturbing trend" for the consoles ... xbox and PS
the console games have ALSO been released with bugs
xbox360's Shivering Islands has a FATAL bug
:thumbsdown:
Originally posted by: apoppin
IF BluRay holds the top new movie releases
the Betamax was declared "the winner" ... oh so many years ago
-- and it *was better* ... VHS bulldozed it ... like HD may do
nothing is *final* ... including the console's future as "pc wannabes"
but there is a "disturbing trend" for the consoles ... xbox and PS
the console games have ALSO been released with bugs
xbox360's Shivering Islands has a FATAL bug
:thumbsdown:
Well, some of the top movie slots are going to fluctuate obviously depending on which movie studio is releasing the title, but right now Sony has the backing of the bigger studios including their own Columbia/TriStar label.
Similar to your WalMart example, its not real hard to do some real market research by walking into your local retailer to see how the war is playing out. As it is now, my local Best Buys stock BD discs at about a 2:1 ratio to HD-DVDs with movies I would actually want to buy mirroring the DT 70% figures.
Betamax is a bit different in the sense the media itself was so much more expensive than VHS. Not sure if it was a licensing thing or what, but I'm pretty sure that's why Betamax ended up losing despite being the superior tech. LD failed to hit the mainstream for similar reasons. I don't see that kind of pricing difference with HD-DVD and BD but again, I don't know what's going on with the licensing side of things. Also I don't recall Betamax being declared the winner, I just know a lot of people were sad to see it go because again, it was the better tech. You could also bring up MD which Sony also pushed heavily.
I disagree though about consoles essentially becoming PC wannabees. There's absolutely nothing stopping console makers from squeezing every bit of the latest PC tech into their consoles. Its just a matter of how much loss they're willing to absorb per unit.
And I'm not saying consoles aren't going to have their share of dud titles and bugs, just like I can't discount the possibility of cheating/hacks on consoles. Its just not going to be as rampant. With consoles making the cross-over to online content updates, a launch bug isn't the game-breaker it used to be, so not a big deal imo.
apoppin
Lifer
we have to 'see' on the HD war
as to the consoles ... i have spent HOURS with my argument Here and it is tough to repeat and condense everything:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=2033611&enterthread=y
it is still very current - being continued this morning ... please ... give it a quick skim over and then report back on what you think of the current state of the nextGen console is - from the dozens of links i have posted - NOT *just* John Romero's opinion
as to the consoles ... i have spent HOURS with my argument Here and it is tough to repeat and condense everything:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=2033611&enterthread=y
it is still very current - being continued this morning ... please ... give it a quick skim over and then report back on what you think of the current state of the nextGen console is - from the dozens of links i have posted - NOT *just* John Romero's opinion
Ya I posted and read for the first few pages but couldn't keep up.
I'll check it out though after lunch maybe, although I may sneak home to put some time into LotR.
I'll check it out though after lunch maybe, although I may sneak home to put some time into LotR.
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