YAHIT: crap windows and slider

[whoiswes]

we have single pane, aluminum frame windows in our house and very little insulation in the walls, and with the recent downturn in the weather, we're realizing all over again how HORRIBLE our house is insulated.

just wondering if any of you have any novel ideas for insulating some of our windows and an 8 ft wide slider - they are the worst culprits as most of the seals are shot and they leak a ton of air. the walls will wait until spring when we finish the lower level (new wiring, insulation, and drywall - upstairs is 1/2 done right now)

at this point, i'm thinking 1.5" styrofoam insulation board - i'll cut it to size and just wedge it in the openings at night (north side windows will be blocked off permanently). the plastic sheeting stuff isn't worth two cents...

any ideas or opinions? please don't say 'new windows' - they're on the list, but money and time are against us. i need a quick fix that will at least slow down the heat loss for the next few months.

thanks...happy turkey day.

 

[Ornery]

Perhaps some heavy lined curtains for the time being. Don't spend too much on temporary fixes, or you'll spend more than the small amount of energy you'll lose. Use unvented gas heaters from now on. They're close to 100% efficient, AND they add moisture to the air, which makes it feel warmer, and is easier to breathe:

• VENT-FREE GAS SPACE / ROOM HEATERS
  
  VENT-FREE GAS LOGS
  
  Night Hawk Combo Smoke/CO Detector

Most of your heat is escaping through the ceiling, so spend most of your time and money getting that blanketed in blown-in insulation.

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Perhaps some heavy lined curtains for the time being. Don't spend too much on temporary fixes, or you'll spend more than the small amount of energy you'll lose. Use unvented gas heaters from now on. They're close to 100% efficient, AND they add moisture to the air, which makes it feel warmer, and is easier to breathe:

• VENT-FREE GAS SPACE / ROOM HEATERS
  
  VENT-FREE GAS LOGS
  
  Night Hawk Combo Smoke/CO Detector

Most of your heat is escaping through the ceiling, so spend most of your time and money getting that blanketed in blown-in insulation.

thanks for the advice, but i will NEVER use a vent free appliance. that is just asking for trouble...

we have a pellet stove for heat, and will eventually be running a heat pump for cooling and supplemental heat.

if you have a vent free unit, i STRONGLY urge you to do some more research - just because they claim to be safe doesn't mean they are.

EDIT: we already have curtains and the like - we need to limit the amount of air infiltration and create a second thermal barrier - which is why i'll be using stryofoam, most likely. it's also fairly cheap - we can create plugs for all of our windows and the giant sliding glass door for about $25...

 

[T2T III]

What if you made some framed panels that you could attach a heavy mil plastic to? These could fit in the drywall box areas on the inside of the windows. The area between the wooden frame and they drywall box could be sealed with foam weatherstripping. The slider could be insulated a bit better with heavy drapes as Ornery indicated.

A 4' x 4' vinyl casement window runs about $150 - $170, and is double-paned glass. If you have any skill with installing windows, you could put in new windows on the north side this fall and do the rest in the spring.

 

[Evadman]

You really need new windows, even though they are not on the list. that is the only real way to solve the issue.

The insulation boards are not going to work as well as you think. You will not get them to fit without using a table saw to cut them to size. You will also need insulating tape, as most of the drafts will still exist around the edges, as there is no way your windows are actually true.

 

[Ornery]

A friend of ours died recently... he didn't have an unvented appliance at all. I on the other hand, have two. One space heater, and one fireplace. If you think they're any more dangerous than any other heater, YOU need to do some more research. I already have.

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Ornery
A friend of ours died recently... he didn't have an unvented appliance at all. I on the other hand, have two. One space heater, and one fireplace. If you think they're any more dangerous than any other heater, YOU need to do some more research. I already have.

jesus, lighten up.

i look at it this way - if i have the choice between a forced vent pellet stove (with fully gasketed and taped seams on the flue pipe) versus running a combustion type appliance with NO vent, i'll choose the former every time.

why? simple. i already have enough noxious gases in my home as it is - i don't want to add to the mix. if you're comfortable, great! seriously! but please don't belittle me for making an informed choice against something. if you have evidence to the contrary, then i applaud you, but common sense and a desire for clean air have provoked me to choose a more contemporary route.

as for your friends, i'm sorry. it sounds to me like they had not had the chimney inspected recently, which is a requirement, IMHO, when you have any type of burning appliance.

our particular stove will SHUT ITSELF DOWN if the flue becomes blocked - it's a safety measure. in addition, we have two CO detectors and check them daily. the one right next to our stove is measuring 0 (ZERO) PPM of CO - the highest reading we've ever had is 0 (ZERO) PPM.

a combustion appliance is only as safe as you make it. i'll vent the exhaust from mine outside, thank you very much.

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech
A 4' x 4' vinyl casement window runs about $150 - $170, and is double-paned glass. If you have any skill with installing windows, you could put in new windows on the north side this fall and do the rest in the spring.

i really wish we could afford to do exactly that right now, but since the bulk of the windows are on the south side AND the biggest heat loser is the 8' wide sliding glass door (no seals, single pane, aluminum frame), our priority lies with replacing the door ASAP. for something decent, that's about $2000.

Originally posted by: Evadman
You really need new windows, even though they are not on the list.
...
You will also need insulating tape, as most of the drafts will still exist around the edges, as there is no way your windows are actually true.

like i said, new windows are out of the question at this point, and the foam i'm using isn't the white stuff - it's the open-cell rigid insulation board, so it can be easily cut to custom shapes/sizes with something as simple as sharp knife. i already have a boatload of weatherstripping, so sealing up the drafts shouldn't be a problem.

you're right, though - new windows are the only way to fix our issue. if only we could afford them right now.

 

[Ornery]

In the interest of putting a halt to the dissemination of FUD, I'd like to point out that the biggest concern with ANY gas burning appliance, is CO poisoning. The answer to this is not simply having your chimney or furnace inspected, but to install a simple $50.00 CO detector. My friend died because a squirrel crawled in the chimney and died. Had the chimney been inspected the week before the squirrel crawled in, he still would have died. The answer is the same for the unvented appliance, as it is for the vented one. Machines malfunction. All the inspections in the world are no guarantee against that, but a simple CO detector can put those fears to rest.

The other huge concern, is the amount of moisture released by the unvented appliances. Ask anybody who has forced air heat, how much they'd like to have moist air in the winter, without having to run a humidifier? Too much moisture, causing the risk of mold. Wow, that is frightening! :roll:

"...the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data "show no documented deaths due to emissions associated with the use of an ODS-equipped vent-free gas heating appliance" since 1980." - Text

 

[Squisher]

It's been years since I put up plastic, but even then they said it had to be 6 mils or better.


You could make interior storms, with some plexiglas and wood, but that gets pretty expensive.



The styrofoam panels would work the best. They would certainly have the greatest R value, even better than triple panes with argon. But, I would find it a hassle removing them every day. And, they are a little fragile if you would have to handle them every day.

If I were going to use styrofoam I'd stick them to a piece of hardboard at least on one side and have some of that sponge foam around the perimeter to give it a seal. Mount some handles to middle so you won't be prying on it daily. You could even have the hardboard overhang the styrofoam so as to keep the closed cell soft foam strips in place.

BTW-styrofoam is a brand, generic term is rigid-foam

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"...the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data "show no documented deaths due to emissions associated with the use of an ODS-equipped vent-free gas heating appliance" since 1980." - Text

did you actually read that article???

"In a 1983 Department of Energy study, Traynor and six other researchers, including Mike Apte (author of "Unvented Heaters: Drainless Sinks?" HE, Sept/Oct '96, p. 9) found that the heaters "pose a potential threat to the health of occupants of houses where such appliances are used."

"Meanwhile, a new study from the University of Connecticut reports that CO can cause permanent brain damage without any single traumatic poisoning."

"No attention whatever is paid to a 'worst-case' or even a less than favorable [ventilation] scenario." The gas industry traditionally uses worst-case scenarios, and then adds additional safety factors when designing equipment or developing standards. Greiner also criticizes the GRI assumption that the heaters will be used at most four hours at a time. He cites a homeowner who uses an unvented heater all the time, but calls it "a supplemental heater because it heats only part of the house."

The NYSERDA report also criticized the GRI's science. "The heater sizes recommended," it says, "are larger than the heater sizes which were used to calculate indoor air contaminant levels."

and my personal favorite

The Consumer Products Safety Commission logged over 15 CO poisoning events, including 10 fatalities, from unvented gas heaters between December 1994 and January 1997. Some of the poisonings were clearly caused by new heaters, but it is unclear whether the fatalities were caused by pre-ODS heaters.

this is why you read the WHOLE article

 

[Ornery]

I posted from an article that some people wouldn't regard as biased. If some people actually want facts, with COMPLETE rebuttals to that POS, useless report, they can find it here:

Response to Popular Science Article

• Video
  
  Arlington, VA, March 10, 2000 - Recently Popular Science magazine ran an article that was very critical of vent-free gas products. While we value fact-based opinions on vent-free products, we believe this article contained so many inaccuracies and misconceptions that a response from our industry was warranted. Therefore, to "clear the air," we will address the erroneous assertions that were contained in the recent article on a point by point basis.
  
  Assertion:
  Some people have complained of health problems.
  
  Fact:
  There are many factors that can contribute to health concerns in a home including building products such as wall board, carpet, and paint and glue; animal dander and hair; chemicals; hair dye; smoking; drugs; cooking spices; spores [mold]; feathers; fabrics; garden sprays and supplies and so on. While some people may have special sensitivity to various household environmental factors, including use of vent-free products, the fact is there are no independent, documented studies that show vent-free products cause illness or negative health effects.
  
  To test the effects of vent-free gas product emissions on indoor air quality, in 1996, the American Gas Association's Research Division (AGAR) tested vent-free gas products in a real home - the AGAR research and demonstration house. The AGAR scientists tested the levels of all five major contributors of indoor air quality - oxygen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and water vapor (humidity) - against the latest indoor air quality (IAQ) guidelines and recommendations.
  
  The researchers concluded that vent-free gas heating products performed well within nationally recognized guidelines for indoor air quality, proving that vent-free gas heating products meet applicable emission requirements, even when used over extended time periods, among sensitive populations, and with oversized units.
  
  In addition, based upon data available from manufacturers of vent-free gas products, to date, the industry is not aware of any recorded deaths attributed to the emissions of a vent-free gas product that is equipped with an Oxygen Detection Safety Pilot (ODS) (see more on the ODS below). This data covers a 20-year history during which more than eight million units were sold in the U.S.
  
  Assertion:
  Some gas direct-heating manufacturers have elected not to manufacture vent-free gas products.
  
  Fact:
  Of course, any company has the right to manufacture what it chooses. In this industry, while there are a minority of companies that have chosen not to manufacture vent-free products, these are companies which, traditionally, have always been opposed to these products. A more telling statistic is that the list of manufacturers who make both vent-free and traditional vented gas products has grown to more than 100 today. This is not simply a matter of manufacturers responding to consumer demand for convenience and added value to a home, but because vent-free products have a proven track record of safety for nearly 20 years.
  
  Assertion:
  There are concerns about carbon monoxide and "nitrous" oxide emissions from vent-free appliances.
  
  Fact:
  The article's continued references to "nitrous oxide" exemplify the author's lack of technical understanding of this issue. Nitrous oxide is "laughing gas," which is known to be an anesthetic used by dentists. Had the article's author been more thorough in researching this issue, it would have been obvious that "nitrogen dioxide" is the emission typically addressed when considering these products.
  
  As previously noted, when properly installed and operated according to the manufacturers instructions, vent-free appliances perform well within nationally recognized guidelines for indoor air quality, including emissions of carbon monoxide (CO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2). This applies to every heating region of the United States defined by the Department of Energy (DOE), except for those installations in a confined space in DOE's Region V. In this case, the appliance's Btu input should be limited per defined guidelines and local code requirements. This is made clear in the sizing guidelines included in a free publication published by the Alliance entitled Consumer Guide to Vent-Free Gas Products.
  
  Assertion:
  Households with children, pregnant women, and elderly people should avoid vent-free gas products.
  
  Fact:
  The effects of emissions of vent-free products on sensitive populations were accounted for when, in its testing, AGAR used as its criteria a limit for carbon monoxide (CO) set by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC). The CPSC exposure limit for CO was established using sensitive populations such as children, pregnant women and the elderly as its benchmark. As previously noted the results of the research showed that vent-free gas heating products performed well within the CPSC guidelines.
  
  
  In addition to the research performed by AGAR, listed vent-free products must conform to the national product safety standard, ANSI Z21.11.2, which requires vent-free products to satisfy numerous construction and performance requirements that, among others, include tests for proper combustion under abnormal conditions. This tough safety standard was developed by an independent committee comprised of representatives from various interests including state and federal regulatory authorities, utilities, manufacturers, consumers and general interests. All vent-free gas products sold in the U.S. are certified by recognized listing agencies for compliance with this standard to assure their safety.
  
  Assertion:
  There is nothing to prevent a thrifty homeowner from using an unvented gas heater as a sole heat source.
  
  Fact:
  As with any new appliance in the home, the consumer must be informed on how to use it properly. All major building codes categorize vent-free products as being for supplemental use and require that a primary source of heat (e.g. a furnace) be present in the home before installation of the vent-free product permit can be issued. It is clearly stated in the operating instructions of every vent-free appliance, as well as in informational materials distributed by manufacturers and the Vent-Free Gas Products Alliance, that vent-free gas products are only to be used for supplemental heating. In fact, the primary purpose of the Alliance, a coalition of 26 leading manufacturers of vent-free gas products, is to inform customers about the proper sizing and proper use of vent-free equipment. Last year alone, information of this type was circulated to more than 138 million readers of local newspapers.
  
  Assertion:
  Water vapor released by vent-free appliances should be a concern.
  
  Fact:
  Homes that supply the minimum of 0.35 air changes per hour, as recommended by the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE), should be very adaptable to the introduction of a vent-free gas appliance with respect to moisture. However, installers of vent-free appliances in homes that have extremely tight construction should be sure to follow the manufacturer's instructions and building code requirements for supplying ventilation and combustion air. In some cases, additional mechanical ventilation may need to be added before installing a vent-free gas heating appliance.
  
  Many people in cold climates use humidifiers for added indoor moisture due to a reduction in the relative humidity when it is cold outdoors. While vent-free gas heating products are not intended to replace humidifiers, they do perform a similar function by releasing a small quantity of water vapor, providing increased comfort when it's cold. In doing so, vent-free products become a source of added comfort rather than a source of concern for most homes.
  
  Assertion:
  Vent-free gas appliances are prohibited altogether in California, Massachusetts, and Montana, and are banned in Canada and the United Kingdom.
  
  Fact:
  Again, this shows a lack of thoroughness on the part of the article's author in researching the facts. California recently enacted a law that permits the sale and use of natural gas vent-free hearth products. However, sales may not proceed in that state until appropriate regulations are developed and in place. That process is now underway. Regarding Massachusetts, approval of the use of gas-fired vent-free products in that state is currently in the legislative process. Lastly, the state of Montana uses a model code in which the provision to prohibit vent-free products was added prior to the mandate of the national safety standard that all vent-free products have an ODS.
  
  In addition, the article's author conspicuously failed to mention that in recent years, the states of New York, New Hampshire and Utah have updated their respective codes to permit the sale and use of vent-free products in those states. Moreover, 47 states have either accepted or lifted their ban on these products in their respective state laws or building codes since the ODS became mandatory, and, more significantly, not one of those states has found any cause to reverse their decision to permit these products.
  
  As for vent-free products being "banned" altogether in Canada, this is also incorrect. Vent-free gas products are allowed in British Columbia, Manitoba, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. Other areas of Canada, including Ontario have sought the assistance of the Vent-Free Alliance in educating them about vent-free products, and, in some cases, getting them approved for use in their area.
  
  As for the United Kingdom, this is an "apples and oranges" comparison. The United Kingdom has homes that are very different from those in the U.S.; their construction codes are quite different and it is very difficult to compare U.S. codes with codes from a country that have homes that are centuries old. Also, vent-free products marketed in Europe are typically cabinet heaters, whose cabinet contains a fuel cylinder. Fuel cylinders are prohibited by codes in the United States from being stored inside a home. Recognizing and accounting for these differences in code requirements, it should be noted that much of the original vent-free gas technology in the USA came from the UK and other European countries. Manufacturers of the ODS report that there are now over 45 million vent-free units in use in other countries such as Japan, Australia and Spain.
  
  Assertion:
  Vent-free gas appliances can be moved around the house.
  
  Fact:
  It is absolutely not true, and, moreover, it is irresponsible to convey through this article that vent-free products are portable appliances. Unequivocally, they are not portable appliances. The convenience of vent-free products is in their ability to be placed just about anywhere in the home where there's access to a gas line. However, once the location is determined for the vent-free appliance, it is permanently installed there. Furthermore, the national product safety standard requires that all vent-free gas products be permanently installed.
  
  Assertion:
  Energy efficient means burning off 99 percent of the harmful gases generated by combustion.
  
  Fact:
  Although the article implied that this is what energy efficiency means, it is not correct. Energy efficiency is, basically, a measure of the heat output as compared to the heat input. For example, if a space heating appliance is 83 percent efficient, it means that 83 percent of the heat it produces will heat the home, and 17 percent will be lost through the vent. When vent-free gas appliances are said to be 99 percent efficient, it means that nearly all the heat generated by the unit stays in the home and is not lost up a chimney or vent.
  
  Assertion:
  If a customer buys a vent-free gas appliance, it is necessary to purchase a quality carbon monoxide detector as well.
  
  Fact:
  All homes, whether their energy source is electric, gas, wood or oil, should have a listed carbon monoxide (CO) detector. There are many other sources of CO that warrant purchasing a CO detector including exhaust from automobiles operating in attached garages, charcoal grills used inside the home or even gas appliances that have not been properly maintained.
  
  As previously mentioned, according to manufacturers, we are not aware of any deaths attributed to CO emissions from a vent-free supplemental gas heating appliance equipped with an Oxygen Detection Safety-Pilot (ODS) since the ODS was introduced in 1980.
  
  Assertion:
  Oxygen levels below 15 percent indicate that CO is rising dangerously.
  
  Fact:
  This is true, but a vent-free gas heater will not operate at an oxygen level below 18 percent. This is because the ODS system, which is an extremely precise safety feature unique to vent-free gas appliances, reacts to a decrease in a room's oxygen supply in a manner that shuts off the gas supply to the appliance. The gas pilot burns normally when it is exposed to normal air (20.9 percent oxygen), but in the unlikely case when the oxygen level in a room drops to a predetermined level, established by the national safety standard to be 18 percent, the pilot flame lifts off of the flame-proving thermocouple causing the gas valve to close. In other words, by shutting off the gas supply it "fails safe" and the appliance cannot be manually re-ignited until the room air is back to normal at (18 percent oxygen or higher). As previously noted, all vent-free gas products certified to the national safety standard incorporate an ODS.
  
  Therefore if the oxygen level drops to 15 percent, there are other factors in the home that are causing the unsafe condition, not the vent-free gas appliance.
  
  Assertion:
  All vent-free appliances put out as much 40,000 Btu of heat.
  
  Fact:
  The article states that "Vent-free appliances put out as much as 40,000 Btu of heat, but most rooms need only 5,000 to 15,000." Strictly speaking, the Btu rating of a vent-free appliance relates to its input rating, not its output. Vent-free appliances come in a variety of sizes with a 40,000 Btu input rating being the maximum size allowed by the national safety standard. Nearly all vent-free gas appliances, regardless of their maximum input rating, are equipped with controls that permit the homeowner to operate the product at variable input ratings to achieve the desired level of heat output (i.e. low to high) for personal comfort. These controls are available in manual or thermostatic designs.
  
  The Vent-Free Gas Products Alliance has published an easy-to-use set of sizing guidelines that allow the consumer to determine the appropriate size unit that should be installed in their home, depending on the size of the area to be heated, the construction of the home, and the home's geographical location. The sizing guidelines are included in a free publication titled Consumer Guide to Vent-Free Gas Products.
  
  If you have any questions concerning vent-free gas products, you may click on the press release page at www.ventfreealliance.org and click on "Commonly Asked Questions About Vent-Free Gas Appliances." This Q&A has been written by members of the Hearth Products Association, the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association, and engineers who deal with product and consumer concerns every day.
  
  For more information, contact the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association, 2107 Wilson Blvd., Suite 600, Arlington, VA 22201.

"...the heaters "pose a potential threat to the health of occupants of houses where such appliances are used."

ALL heaters pose a potential threat to the health of occupants of houses where such appliances are used! ALL OF THEM!



""Meanwhile, a new study from the University of Connecticut reports that CO can cause permanent brain damage without any single traumatic poisoning."

Gee, that's a shocker! But, I guess that wouldn't surprise my friend who died of CO recently. You know, the one who wasn't using a ventless appliance at all?


"The Consumer Products Safety Commission logged over 15 CO poisoning events, including 10 fatalities, from unvented gas heaters between December 1994 and January 1997."

It's no surprise that CO poisoning can be lethal, but as has been pointed out several times, your vented furnace, hot water tank, drier and even ovens can cause CO poisoning. Guess they're all too dangerous to have around at all, eh?

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Ornery
I posted from an article that some people wouldn't regard as biased. If some people actually want facts, with COMPLETE rebuttals to that POS, useless report, they can find it here:

sure, an unbiased article from the very group that is touting the benefits of vent free appliances. i'm sure they're VERY objective when it comes to the 'facts'.

let's see, which article would tend to spin the facts more their way: the one from a home energy magazine, or the one from the association of manufacturers that make the product in question??? hmmm....

...

look, i'm done arguing with you, and i completely agree that CO is a problem for ANY combustion type appliance, but i will NEVER agree that a vent-free appliance provides the same safety margins as a properly installed fireplace or natural gas furnace. based on the design and intended usage patterns of ventless heaters, i feel as though they are a very dangerous thing to rely on. it's one thing if you live in the south and need OCCASSIONAL heat. but if you're trying to heat a house with one, i pity you and hope that no ill will befalls you.

FWIW, i'm not responding to your fanboi threads anymore - i recognize a troll when i see one.

 

[Ornery]

"sure, an unbiased article from the very group that is touting the benefits of vent free appliances. i'm sure they're VERY objective when it comes to the 'facts'.

The first link I posted, that you replied to WAS from Home Energy Magazine! WTF? If anything, their article was slanted to the same FUD you're spreading.

"i feel as though they are a very dangerous thing to rely on."

Based on what? All the wondrous, informational links you've provided? :roll:

"it's one thing if you live in the south and need OCCASSIONAL heat. but if you're trying to heat a house with one,"

Who the fvck said to try and heat a whole house with one? NOBODY! You're the one with heat escaping, not me. A $150.00 appliance could take care of that, add much needed moisture, and be used even after the perminant repair. THAT'S a viable soution, but I guess you have a better idea... oh that's right, YOU DON'T!

 

[MikeMike]

bahahahaha, "i recognize a troll when i see one" haha sorry, but you were getting raped.

My family has used a vent free gas heater to heat a room of our house for id say 7 years or so. This is because our furnace isnt large enough to heat the room and we didnt want to pay to install more vents so we just let it get "floor" heat with a crawl space having the heater in it.

In that 7 years, we have had a CO detector in the room literally right above a vent that allows the heat up and is right above the heater and not once has it ever gone off.

Do you know how much more dangerous a "properly" installed fireplace is? lets see, in order to make sure your flu is clear youd prolly have to check every week (that is a bitch) and then you better hope wind doesnt hit a piece of ash and blow it onto your carpet.

You just need to get new vinyl windows most likely and new insulation in the attic.

MIKE

 

[arcas]

One thing to keep in mind if you're going to jimmy-rig styrofoam insulation board around the house is that it's flamable. You'll need to keep it away from anything that might generate a spark. That's why building codes generally require styrofoam board to be covered with sheetrock or something similar.

Other ideas:

1) Make sure your windows have been properly caulked. I'm a big fan of the 'Dynaflex 230' latex caulk. It's almost as good as straight silicone but without the vinegar smell and it can be painted after it cures. Good stuff.

2) If you have air leaking around your windows, you might need to install replacement felt strips. Unfortunately, the size tends to vary from window brand to window brand but a window dealer or even Lowe's should have several sizes in stock.

3) You've probably already done this but make sure the weather stripping around your windows and doors is in good shape.

4) I've never looked at a sliding door very closely but depending on where the air leak is, I can't imagine it'd be very hard to install some makeshift felt strips to seal out the air. Go to Wal-Mart and buy a yard or two of thick felt from the fabric department and cut to size.

 

[whoiswes]

Originally posted by: Ornery
The first link I posted, that you replied to WAS from Home Energy Magazine! WTF? If anything, their article was slanted to the same FUD you're spreading.

good god, i wasn't referring to THAT article - that is the article that i pulled the following quotes from:

"In a 1983 Department of Energy study, Traynor and six other researchers, including Mike Apte (author of "Unvented Heaters: Drainless Sinks?" HE, Sept/Oct '96, p. 9) found that the heaters "pose a potential threat to the health of occupants of houses where such appliances are used."

"Meanwhile, a new study from the University of Connecticut reports that CO can cause permanent brain damage without any single traumatic poisoning."

"No attention whatever is paid to a 'worst-case' or even a less than favorable [ventilation] scenario." The gas industry traditionally uses worst-case scenarios, and then adds additional safety factors when designing equipment or developing standards. Greiner also criticizes the GRI assumption that the heaters will be used at most four hours at a time. He cites a homeowner who uses an unvented heater all the time, but calls it "a supplemental heater because it heats only part of the house."

The NYSERDA report also criticized the GRI's science. "The heater sizes recommended," it says, "are larger than the heater sizes which were used to calculate indoor air contaminant levels."

and my personal favorite

The Consumer Products Safety Commission logged over 15 CO poisoning events, including 10 fatalities, from unvented gas heaters between December 1994 and January 1997. Some of the poisonings were clearly caused by new heaters, but it is unclear whether the fatalities were caused by pre-ODS heaters.

then you come back with your "rebuttal" article from the Vent Free Appliance Organization - THAT is the blatently biased source I'm talking about. your first article had ONE positive thing to say about vent free's - the rest was all negative. and to rebut, you pull something from the very alliance that was formed to promote these type of stoves. if that isn't spinning things, i don't know what is.

in other words, the first article (from an independent source) you posted was definitely in "my favor" so you had to grab literature from an obviously biased source to refut the "FUD". come back with a NON-biased article and i'll be happy to read it.

"it's one thing if you live in the south and need OCCASSIONAL heat. but if you're trying to heat a house with one,"

Who the fvck said to try and heat a whole house with one? NOBODY! You're the one with heat escaping, not me. A $150.00 appliance could take care of that, add much needed moisture, and be used even after the perminant repair. THAT'S a viable soution, but I guess you have a better idea... oh that's right, YOU DON'T!

no, it's NOT a viable solution, because I DO NOT WANT A VENT FREE APPLIANCE IN OR AROUND MY HOME. PERIOD!!!. knock YOURSELF out, but please quit touting the supposed benefits to me - you will NEVER convince or otherwise sway me that these things are ANYTHING but an accident waiting to happen!!! for all of you who have one and are happy with it, i'm happy for you. but between the birds we have as pets (extremely sensitive to even minute concentrations of noxious chemicals - that's why canaries were used in mines, basically as methane detectors) and my feelings on having what amounts to exhaust vented into my home, i'd rather stick with a traditional vented appliance.

we've agreed on one point - that combustion appliances are dangerous. i wholeheartedly agree and do not doubt that for one second. but for you to tell me that a vent-free is just as safe (or safer) than anything else is something I cannot belive, given the information i've read and the stories i've heard.

Do you know how much more dangerous a "properly" installed fireplace is? lets see, in order to make sure your flu is clear youd prolly have to check every week (that is a bitch) and then you better hope wind doesnt hit a piece of ash and blow it onto your carpet.

You just need to get new vinyl windows most likely and new insulation in the attic

that's why we didn't buy a friggin fireplace - we have a pellet stove - completely self contained and automatic (no sparks on the carpet), 99% efficient, and capable of shutting itself off in a low draft (read: blockage) situation. the safety features are exactly why we bought it.

agreed on your second point - new windows and another 9 inches of cellulose are in the works. i'm looking for a 3-4 month cheap fix until we can do things properly (having enough money).

...

thanks for all of the advice, everyone - we'll probably just insulate and/or seal up the windows until spring, then go from there on replacing them. i might blow some cellulose into the attic yet this winter - although i'd rather wait until i'm done rewiring if at all possible.

 

[Ornery]

...please quit touting the supposed benefits to me - you will NEVER convince or otherwise sway me that these things are ANYTHING but an accident waiting to happen!!!

I've posted links from SEVERAL sources backing up my position. You've posted NOTHING but opinion and FUD. You've got the problem to solve, which is why this topic is here, and in the process of sifting through solutions, YOU'VE spread outright lies about a perfectly good source of supplimental heat for many people. You said, "... the rest was all negative" in first article, but the balance of that article is the same kind of FUD you're spreading. Simply opinions with NO facts to back those opinions up. The rebuttal from Vent-Free Alliance was based on FACTS from beginning to end.

The following information is NOT for your benefit, but others who may be interested in FACTS:

Should You Buy Unvented Gas Logs?

• Burning gas or wood produces carbon monoxide, a dangerous gas, so you might wonder how a fireplace unit can be safely used without venting the wastes. It's because of the type of flame produced by vent-free gas logs--a very hot blue flame that's designed to provide nearly complete fuel combustion, resulting in less carbon monoxide and soot than a vented model.
  
  Water is another byproduct of combustion. If you have vented gas logs, most of the moisture escapes out the vent, but in a vent-free unit it enters the living space. The extra humidity is a plus for many homes during dry winter months...

Gas Logs - Vent Free FAQ

• Q: Are the unvented gas fireplaces safe? We are planning a new home and they certainly look attractive but I just feel very uncomfortable not venting combustion products. Besides the safety factor, I would appreciate other comments on how well they work, etc. I really want a wood stove (we had one 20 years ago) but my wife doesn't like the mess. I have to admit that the convenience of gas (over wood) sure makes them look attractive.
  
  A: All of the vent free fireplaces meet AGA (American Gas Association) approval. There are several factors involved. Vent free gas log put out a lot of heat. This may mean you cannot run your logs for long periods due to the heat output. A vented fireplace with vent free gas logs makes more sense to me. Then, your future options are endless. You could change to wood (you said you like a real fire), you may want to go with the very realistic vented gas logs. If roof venting is not possible, take a look at direct vent units. The flue gasses go out the back through a horizontal flue, the combustion air is pulled around this pipe. This makes the unit sealed from the outdoors. It works very well in tight houses and is approved in bedrooms in many areas.
  
  Q: If one uses a vent-free gas log in a fireplace during a power outage in the winter with the chimney flue closed as recommended, what protects the household from CO buildup and poisoning?
  
  A: The ODS (Oxygen Depletion Devise) does not require power to operate. It will shut off the gas to the appliance when the oxygen in the room drops from 20.9% to 18%. This is a long ways from harmful levels of CO.

A Fireplace Without a Vent?

• Just when you were ready to throw in the towel, technology comes to the rescue with a fireplace that doesn't need to be vented. You read it right -- a vent-free fireplace. Sound far-fetched? Not once you've had the opportunity to look one of these over as we did at a recent national building products exposition.
  
  A vent-free gas-heating appliance operates without a chimney, flue or vent, so it can be installed just about anywhere even on an inside wall. In contrast, installing a traditional wood fireplace is a major (and costly) construction project.
  
  Our first reaction to this technology was one of great skepticism due to concerns for indoor air quality and the potential for carbon monoxide poisoning. However, we learned that vent-free heating products operate so efficiently that potentially harmful fumes are not a threat. Moreover, since 1980, vent-free gas heating appliances have been equipped with a safety-pilot system called an oxygen detection safety pilot, or ODS. The ODS automatically shuts off the gas supply in the event that the oxygen level in the room falls to 18 percent.

Fireplace Venting Options

• Vent-Free
  
  A vent-free gas fireplace operates without a chimney, flue or vent, so you can install one just about anywhere. Therefore you don't need any fireplace venting for this type. Choose vent-free gas fireplaces, stoves, fireplace inserts and gas logs. Modern vent-free gas fireplaces:
  • are inexpensive and have low operating costs
  • are 99 percent energy efficient
  • provide warmth during power outages
  • are Design-Certified to the latest national safety standards (ANSI Z21.11.2)
  • do not exceed 40,000 Btu/hr of heat output
    and are a source of pleasure for years to come.
  • Eight million American homes and more than 45 million households worldwide already enjoy the comfort and convenience of vent-free gas fireplaces. In fact, more Americans are buying vent-free gas fireplaces than any other type of supplemental gas heating product. However, there are some areas where these units are restricted. Consumers must check with their local building departments before purchasing.

Gas Logs and Fireplaces

• Vent-free gas appliances are not without controversy. Vent-free appliances are manufactured to careful standards and have a sterling safety record. Nonetheless, some people believe it self-evident that having an open flame in your home that burns your oxygen and releases water vapor and such other products as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, sulphur dioxide, and nitrogen oxide unvented into your living space just can't be a good idea, no matter how low the limits are. Here is a summary of the facts surrounding vent-free appliances (VFA).
  
  • VFA's release combustion products such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, sulphur dioxide, and nitrogen oxide directly into living areas.
  • VFA's are manufactured to ANSI standards that limit their Btu/H and combustion product emissions to well below acceptable limits.
  • VFA's burn oxygen from the living area and can reduce oxygen levels.
  • VFA's are equipped with Oxygen Depletion Safety-Pilot devices that extinguish the flame if oxygen levels fall from a normal 20.9% to below 18%. These devices have an excellent performance record.
  • VFA's are banned in Canada, California, Massachusetts, and by many local codes.
  • VFA's are approved in most areas of the other 48 states.
  • VFA's release water vapor into the living area, increasing humidity levels.
  • VFA's are generally used during winter months when excess humidity is generally not a problem. Furthermore, humidity levels won't be greatly affected if the appliance is not used for more than 3 or 4 hours.
  • Some people, especially those with asthma or other respiratory disorders, can be greatly troubled by odors and lowered oxygen levels in rooms with VFA's.
  • Oxygen levels and the build-up of water vapor, combustion products, and odors are greatly affected by the natural and induced ventilation of the room

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

actually, the heat-shrink plastic can do wonders if there aren't leaks around the perimeter of the window frame. We used them in an old apatment. As others have said, sticking in rigid foam board isn't going to do much. You need an airtight seal to do any good.

 

[Bryophyte]

When we lived in places with poorly insulated windows, we used the heat-shrink window kits, like these: http://www.acehardware.com/sm-...-kits--fi-1259828.html . They work great, go up in minutes. Also, count the wall outlets and switches on outside walls and buy foam gaskets that reduce air flow through them for them too, like these: http://www.wattbusters.com/Foa...t_Sealers-p-19545.html . Walk around the house with your hand near the outside walls and feel around for cold drafts after you've insulated the windows and outlets to see if there are any places that need caulking, or doors that need new sweeps. This page has some good information: http://services.unitil.com/ceco/res_weather.asp

 

[whoiswes]

update for those who care: ended up doing the plastic route on pretty much everything...duct tape and 4 mil plastic.

time will tell if it makes any difference...if it doesn't, i'm blowing some cellulose into the attic. new slider and windows will be installed sometime over the spring/summer/fall, hopefully.

/okay, back to dissemating some more FUD!!!!