YAGT: OMG I love guns

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Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
0
Thinking of handgun sights in terms of "accurate" or "inaccurate" is way off. Good shooting produces tight groups. Sight adjustment only changes where on the target the group ends up, and that is of no consequence as far as learning to shoot goes; only result you need to see improving is group size).

The only way sights can be "inaccurate" is if they are so loose that recoil shakes them to a different adjustment between shots.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
2
81
Thinking of handgun sights in terms of "accurate" or "inaccurate" is way off. Good shooting produces tight groups. Sight adjustment only changes where on the target the group ends up, and that is of no consequence as far as learning to shoot goes; only result you need to see improving is group size).

The only way sights can be "inaccurate" is if they are so loose that recoil shakes them to a different adjustment between shots.

This is pretty pedantic, but "tight groups" is good precision, not good accuracy. Sighting in correctly produces good accuracy.

With fixed sights, both accuracy and precision is related to how you shoot, since accuracy is achieved by using the correct sight picture (hold over/under) for the range.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,252
403
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Thanks for the replies guys. Btw, forgot to answer your question Farmer. Definitely not in medical school now, but hope to be next year. :p
Yeah, I guess it could be the sights, but more likely one or more of your basics aren't quite right:

- Sight picture
- Sight alignment
- Trigger control
- Anticipating recoil
- Grip

There's more "basics", but these come to mind first that would influence missing your target a lot. Work on the fundamentals and practice, practice, practice.

Check out Magpul's "Art of the Dynamic Handgun" for reference. Grip example
 

Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
0
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Like, i shot my handgun and sucked balls. How would I (besides obvious inexperience) know it wasnt due to the sights not being accurate?
BTW: shoot a couple of 5 round groups as carefully as you can, taking as much time per shot as you need. Post pictures of every set of 5. Indicate distance to target, and group size (or target size, if hits are all over the target). This might help us give you advice, and even if not, it'll be a reference for you to see your progress in concrete terms.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
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Haha, i was just thinking how the hell anyone knows. Well, anyone whos new anyway.

Anyone who is new automatically assumes it is their lack of experience since "most of the time" the sights are pretty close if not dead on at the appropriate distances.

If your shots are precise but not accurate, either it is a gripping/trigger issue or the sights are off. If you are shooting very low (more than 3"), you are most likely anticipating the recoil. Try shooting very carefully with your "off-hand" and you will most likely hit dead bullseye. This means you need to break your "flinching" habit with your strong hand. (This is very common).

If your trigger finger is not situated on the trigger pad correctly, it is very easy to "push" the point of impact a few inches to the side (using very tip of finger) or "pull" the point of impact a few inches to the other side (using crease of first knuckle).


If your shots are not precise (looks like shotgun blast), you need to calm down, slow down, and focus on the front sight while the target is slightly blurry (and the rear sights can be somewhat blurry too).

The only way to know if the sights are an issue is to benchrest the handgun.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
Question for all of you CCW guys. I'm deciding between the M&P shield 9 and the Springfield XDs most likely for IWB carry. While the XDs has a strong allure due to its 45 caliber, it will "always" get no more than 40% of the practice of 9mm due to its cost. Also, I have no other 45 caliber weapons, but 9mm is very commonplace in my collection. Does this mean that my decision is made and I should not consider the XDs for these reason s alone? I'm a firm believer in the value of practice and familiarity, but something about the allure of 45 caliber keeps me thinking rather than making a decision. I might simply be stuck in a cyclical loop of the "paper/technical/numbers" vs. "practice time" game. I'm attracted to the argument of the wound channel of a 45 caliber perhaps being more quickly effective while acknowledging that both 9mm and 45 ACP are generally effective.

Further disclosure: I would be carrying a 38spl+p BUG at all times.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
2
81
Btw, which picture do you use for your sp-01? I looked around and people suggest that the front sight be just below the area you are aiming for.

I think I've tried that, and also having the front sight aligned with the two back dots. I haven't been to the range in a month, so I am still figuring it out too.
 

velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
Well i just ordered a
Savage 10 FCP-K 308 bolt action
Rock Island Armory 1911 10mm

Be at my ffl when i get home in two weeks.

In the mean time anyone got a recommendation for a scope base for my savage?
 

duragezic

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,234
4
81
Dude ammo is even worse now. Go to a random ammo site and box of 9mm is $12+ and .223 is $9 for 20 rounds. Even quantity .223 is almost $0.50 per round. Other sites have it cheaper but it's not in stock.

When I go to Meijer I see their ammo prices and think it's no good, except like if I just needed one box to go to the range I would buy it. But these days it's actually a good price, and it's in stock and no shipping.

I've been looking for ammo for a month now and it's been expensive and out of stock. But in the last week it's even worse! Man last year I should have bought WAY more when I could get 9mm for $0.20 and .223 for $0.30... good stuff too. Seriously should have bought $1000 worth.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Dunno about you, but I manage to find 223 for $7 per 20, usually (after tax.)

Velillen, any chance you want to go to the east side..."show off" your 10mm RIA? Please do post how it is, I might get one. A friend owns a 10mm lego block....I mean glock....and I want to see how the RIA matches up.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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Question for all of you CCW guys. I'm deciding between the M&P shield 9 and the Springfield XDs most likely for IWB carry. While the XDs has a strong allure due to its 45 caliber, it will "always" get no more than 40% of the practice of 9mm due to its cost. Also, I have no other 45 caliber weapons, but 9mm is very commonplace in my collection. Does this mean that my decision is made and I should not consider the XDs for these reason s alone? I'm a firm believer in the value of practice and familiarity, but something about the allure of 45 caliber keeps me thinking rather than making a decision. I might simply be stuck in a cyclical loop of the "paper/technical/numbers" vs. "practice time" game. I'm attracted to the argument of the wound channel of a 45 caliber perhaps being more quickly effective while acknowledging that both 9mm and 45 ACP are generally effective.

Further disclosure: I would be carrying a 38spl+p BUG at all times.

.45 is significantly more effective than 9mm, on impact. You could be shooting .50 BMG and it wouldn't matter if you can't hit your target. I'd go with the 9mm. Save a .45 for range use or when you have the money to practice.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
2
0
Question for all of you CCW guys. I'm deciding between the M&P shield 9 and the Springfield XDs most likely for IWB carry. While the XDs has a strong allure due to its 45 caliber, it will "always" get no more than 40% of the practice of 9mm due to its cost. Also, I have no other 45 caliber weapons, but 9mm is very commonplace in my collection. Does this mean that my decision is made and I should not consider the XDs for these reason s alone? I'm a firm believer in the value of practice and familiarity, but something about the allure of 45 caliber keeps me thinking rather than making a decision. I might simply be stuck in a cyclical loop of the "paper/technical/numbers" vs. "practice time" game. I'm attracted to the argument of the wound channel of a 45 caliber perhaps being more quickly effective while acknowledging that both 9mm and 45 ACP are generally effective.

Further disclosure: I would be carrying a 38spl+p BUG at all times.

No matter what you carry, there will always be a bigger, more "effective" round out there. It's all about compromise, and you have to draw the line somewhere. I wouldn't walk around with a .22 if I had something else that was practical and available, but the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP in terms of stopping power is negligible. Just make sure you can hit your target without putting others in danger.

In my book, 9mm is more than adequate as a pistol round. If I really think I need more power than that (large aggressive bear country or something), a pistol just isn't going to cut it.

While my favorite pistol by far is my .45 1911, I stick with 9mm personally or .380 for carry purposes personally.
 

velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
Dunno about you, but I manage to find 223 for $7 per 20, usually (after tax.)

Velillen, any chance you want to go to the east side..."show off" your 10mm RIA? Please do post how it is, I might get one. A friend owns a 10mm lego block....I mean glock....and I want to see how the RIA matches up.


Just have to keep an eye out for ammo deals. Patience is the key in my experience. The last PMC 223 i got (1k worth) was $6 per 20 (before tax and shipping) and like 6.50 after all of that. Its when you want to buy it that you cant find it. I personally buy it anytime i find a good deal even if i have enough on hand. I reload for myself but prefer ot have friends/family shoot factory....and i shoot factory for the brass.


Rampant, I wouldnt mind a range trip to say Wades to see the new range. Have to be after Christmas sometime though. Wont be back in WA till the 21st then still got to pick it up from my FFL. And i have the lego block 10mm as well so be interesting to compare the two.

.45 is significantly more effective than 9mm, on impact. You could be shooting .50 BMG and it wouldn't matter if you can't hit your target. I'd go with the 9mm. Save a .45 for range use or when you have the money to practice.

Get whatever you can afford ot practice with. 45 may be a better round (to some people) but if you can only afford ot put 50 rounds down a year vs 1000 (exaggerated) in 9mm its not worth it.
 

IGemini

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2010
2,472
2
81
Question for all of you CCW guys. I'm deciding between the M&P shield 9 and the Springfield XDs most likely for IWB carry. While the XDs has a strong allure due to its 45 caliber, it will "always" get no more than 40% of the practice of 9mm due to its cost. Also, I have no other 45 caliber weapons, but 9mm is very commonplace in my collection. Does this mean that my decision is made and I should not consider the XDs for these reason s alone? I'm a firm believer in the value of practice and familiarity, but something about the allure of 45 caliber keeps me thinking rather than making a decision. I might simply be stuck in a cyclical loop of the "paper/technical/numbers" vs. "practice time" game. I'm attracted to the argument of the wound channel of a 45 caliber perhaps being more quickly effective while acknowledging that both 9mm and 45 ACP are generally effective.

Further disclosure: I would be carrying a 38spl+p BUG at all times.

As already stated, caliber is a largely moot point. In principle I like the balance of power and capacity in .40S&W, but ultimately I'm a believer in "whatever you use, use it effectively."

Specifically for your question, I'm not big on the XDs but I wouldn't give S&W any of my money. For size, I'd look at the LC9 or the comparable KelTec offerings...or the XDM Compact 3.8 .45 if I wanted to carry the round, but that's my 2c.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
No matter what you carry, there will always be a bigger, more "effective" round out there. It's all about compromise, and you have to draw the line somewhere. I wouldn't walk around with a .22 if I had something else that was practical and available, but the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP in terms of stopping power is negligible. Just make sure you can hit your target without putting others in danger.

In my book, 9mm is more than adequate as a pistol round. If I really think I need more power than that (large aggressive bear country or something), a pistol just isn't going to cut it.

While my favorite pistol by far is my .45 1911, I stick with 9mm personally or .380 for carry purposes personally.

Thanks for your comment.

I hit up the lgs today and as usual, they did not have the M&P shield. Luckily, they did have an XDs. I bought it because around here subcompacts are becoming scarce and I figured I might as well pick it up since it was on my top two list. Immediately put 50 rounds through it. Shoots quite well especially for a subcompact, no issues so far. First 5 shots at 5 yards were 0.5" c-t-c with (2 seconds per shot standing unaided). Guess I'll have to deal with the ~40 cents per cartridge costs of 45 ACP for this puppy. Shoots much better than the sig p238 which I have been getting 2.5" c-t-c same conditions, although some of that is probably me due to the p238 being significantly smaller. Probably will put 1000 rounds through it in the next couple of weeks to make sure there aren't any reliability issues. Only thing of note is that the recoil spring on the XDs is very heavy compared to all of my other semi autos (9mm and 380). I don't think my wife would be able to rack the slide comfortably (esp. compared to the p238 which is extremely light).
 

IGemini

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2010
2,472
2
81
^^Croatian Springfields in general are pretty stiff out of the box. My brother has an XD-45 that was quite difficult to rack, but after cleaning and oiling, several sessions of field stripping and racking, etc. it felt broken-in. The XDs spring should loosen over time.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
14,068
5
71
^^Croatian Springfields in general are pretty stiff out of the box. My brother has an XD-45 that was quite difficult to rack, but after cleaning and oiling, several sessions of field stripping and racking, etc. it felt broken-in. The XDs spring should loosen over time.

Good to know. I'm still quite surprised by the out of box 5 round precision, especially in light of it being my first 45 ACP. The worst precision I had was 2" c-t-c at 15 yards, 1 second per shot.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Well i just ordered a
Savage 10 FCP-K 308 bolt action
Rock Island Armory 1911 10mm

Be at my ffl when i get home in two weeks.

Let us know how the RIA 10mm is.

From what I've read so far, it sounds like it comes with a rather light recoil spring.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
In the news, measured by background checks, gun sales are at their highest ever.
tlKID.jpg

http://www.nssfblog.com/november-record-month-for-nics-checks/
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Heh, two spikes after Obama election wins.

Oh yeah. You're not an NRA member are you? I am and I got OBAMA'S CUMMING 4 UR GUNS FAST AND FURIOUS OOOOHAGBALAAGHARGHMOTHERFUARGMUNCH.... snail mail literally twice a week or more up until the election, daily emails on the same subjects.

Don't get me wrong there's kernels of truth to the propaganda, but all the bullshit they piled on top of it sure motivated most of the millions of my fellow members. :p
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
Dude ammo is even worse now. Go to a random ammo site and box of 9mm is $12+ and .223 is $9 for 20 rounds. Even quantity .223 is almost $0.50 per round. Other sites have it cheaper but it's not in stock.

When I go to Meijer I see their ammo prices and think it's no good, except like if I just needed one box to go to the range I would buy it. But these days it's actually a good price, and it's in stock and no shipping.

I've been looking for ammo for a month now and it's been expensive and out of stock. But in the last week it's even worse! Man last year I should have bought WAY more when I could get 9mm for $0.20 and .223 for $0.30... good stuff too. Seriously should have bought $1000 worth.

$.35/round for .223/5.56 isn't hard to find at all. Cabela's recently had PMC for $100/300 with a free drybox and free shipping. If your willing to go to .37/38 a round 1000 case are available from several retailers. It's certainly more expensive than in years past but if your paying .50/round for .223/5.56 your just being lazy.