YAGT: OMG I love guns

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pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
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Looking to get it for a few reasons. 1) There are a few C&R guns I'd like to acquire, 2) Discounts are always a good thing, especially since I already reload.

So it looks like the general consensus is that its worth it.

yeah, it's paid for itself many times over in getting C&R guns shipped to my door (no transfer fees, no driving to a gun shop, etc), plus I've bought probably thousands of dollars worth of stuff between Brownell's and Midway at a discount.

you have to keep a bound book of your purchases but thats not too big of a deal unless you're buying and selling a lot of guns. Remember this C&R license does not allow you to sell C&R guns for business - it is for collecting purposes only. You can sell your guns to buy new guns, just can't do it as a business to make money.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
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But what ammo did you shoot through it? Most factory stuff is loaded light. Double tap and Underwood are the two most common ones loaded more to 10mm specs.

I'm itching to pickup that ria 10mm now...dang it

I fired double tap, hard cast rounds, and some double tap JHP. Don't get me wrong, it kicked...but my 41 and 44 mag revolvers kick more.
 

velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
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I fired double tap, hard cast rounds, and some double tap JHP. Don't get me wrong, it kicked...but my 41 and 44 mag revolvers kick more.

Ah was just curious. Ive heard people say 10mm isnt anything but then find out they only shot cheap ammo.

Actually thought the BVAC 10mm ammo i got kicked about the same or even a bit more than the BVAC 44mag ammo i picked up. Though thats a 4" barrel vs 6" as well. And once i get home and actually work up a load for the 44mag itll be different too.
 

IGemini

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 2010
2,472
2
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What was sobering ... the application process? The PA LTCF is probably the easiest to get in the entire country, shall issue and with no requirement for a carry course, and mail-in approval.

No, the process was ridiculously easy, even got my card while I was there. No mail-in approval in my county. The full weight of responsibility now that I have it is what's sobering. Didn't feel quite the same as just having a gun for home defense. Been steeping myself in CCW holder philosophies and expectations for the past week.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
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Actually thought the BVAC 10mm ammo i got kicked about the same or even a bit more than the BVAC 44mag ammo i picked up. Though thats a 4" barrel vs 6" as well. And once i get home and actually work up a load for the 44mag itll be different too.

BVAC 44mag is 240gr at 1033 fps? That's really weak for 44 magnum ammo.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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So how does firing the same caliber through a rifle compare to a handgun? Like, people say a .22 pistol is not a good home defense weapon. Is a .22 rifle? Is it better or worse than a 9mm pistol? Curious about the ballistics i guess.

A rifle will produce better ballistics by virtue of a longer barrel. In longer barrels the compressed gases accelerating a bullet don't dissipate as quickly, as the bullet "plugs up" the barrel for a longer period of time.

Say you have a pistol with a 4" barrel, and a rifle with a 20" barrel, both firing the same round. In the pistol, the expanding gases only accelerate the bullet for however long it takes to clear 4". In the rifle, those same gases remain compressed for the time the bullet takes to travel 20". To go into the basic physics, velocity = acceleration x time. Increase the travel time, increase the velocity.

An analogy would be pressing your car's accelerator for 1 second vs pressing it for several seconds.

In terms of increase in terminal effectiveness, that depends on the specific round and barrel dimensions, but I've heard some 9mm loads can get into .357 magnum territory out of a rifle.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
2
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A rifle will produce better ballistics by virtue of a longer barrel. In longer barrels the compressed gases accelerating a bullet don't dissipate as quickly, as the bullet "plugs up" the barrel for a longer period of time.

Say you have a pistol with a 4" barrel, and a rifle with a 20" barrel, both firing the same round. In the pistol, the expanding gases only accelerate the bullet for however long it takes to clear 4". In the rifle, those same gases remain compressed for the time the bullet takes to travel 20". To go into the basic physics, velocity = acceleration x time. Increase the travel time, increase the velocity.

An analogy would be pressing your car's accelerator for 1 second vs pressing it for several seconds.

In terms of increase in terminal effectiveness, that depends on the specific round and barrel dimensions, but I've heard some 9mm loads can get into .357 magnum territory out of a rifle.

So what you're saying with a .22 is that the difference between a rifle and handgun is that with a rifle the bullet goes through the person and pisses them off, and with a handgun the bullet stays inside them and pisses them off. Either or, the chances of the person you shot staying angery and not dead are pretty high with .22 caliber.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
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So how does firing the same caliber through a rifle compare to a handgun? Like, people say a .22 pistol is not a good home defense weapon. Is a .22 rifle? Is it better or worse than a 9mm pistol? Curious about the ballistics i guess.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

If you want to compare energy:

You can see that out of an 18 barrel a 32gr CCI stinger gets approximately 1510 fps, which is about 162 foot pounds of energy. 9mm ammo typically is in the mid three hundreds for foot pounds of energy in a typical sized pistol.

Calculating energy, M x V^2 / 450,400 = ft/lbs (Mass in grains times velocity squared in feet per second then divide it by 450,400 to get foot pounds of energy.)
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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So what you're saying with a .22 is that the difference between a rifle and handgun is that with a rifle the bullet goes through the person and pisses them off, and with a handgun the bullet stays inside them and pisses them off. Either or, the chances of the person you shot staying angery and not dead are pretty high with .22 caliber.

Agreed, but to be fair if we're talking .22 JHPs that extra velocity could increase penetration/expansion and it stay in the person anyway.

As you said, .22 doesn't suck for defense because of penetration or expansion, it sucks because it's such a small round it simply doesn't have enough mass to do much damage by any mechanism but a direct hit on a vital organ, which under the stress of a defensive encounter is a matter of winning the lottery or being a Delta operator.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
2
81
Increased barrel length does three things:

1.) Like everyone already mentioned, it allows for more energy transfer to the bullet. That doesn't mean the longer the barrel, the greater the muzzle velocity, usually there is a barrel length for maximum muzzle velocity given a bullet and load, since it is a force balance: pressure from the powder pushes the bullet forward, but there is massive friction against the barrel. If the pressure aft of the bullet reaches atmospheric pressure, the bullet will decelerate in the barrel due to friction.

2.) It increases the spin angular velocity of the bullet, which is important for gyroscopic stabilization. Assuming no slip in the barrel, the spin rate at muzzle exit is a function of the back pressure acceleration and the twist rate of the barrel. A bullet can be understabilized if the barrel is too short and the twist rate is not adjusted appropriately. Understabilized bullets react stronger to perturbations (such as wind), and hence are not consistent and do not fly as far. Experts say bullets can also be overstabilized, but I am not an expert and can't comment on the physics of that.

3.) Longer barrels generally mean less report. The report primary comes from the overpressure shockwave as the bullet leaves the barrel, and the back pressure must equalize suddenly with atmospheric pressure. Longer barrel means a back pressure closer to atomspheric pressure, and less report.
 

Prong

Senior member
Jul 11, 2000
539
17
81
Got my new AR put together. Rock River National Match lower, Rock River 16" Predator Pursuit upper, Larue SPR scope mount, Leupold VX3 3.5-10x40 Boone and Crockett reticle, and Troy M4 folding back up irons. Gotta wait on a gas block riser before I get the front sight put on though. I always look forward to see what kind of swag Larue throws in with your order, too.
AR_LH01.jpg

AR_RH01.jpg

Swag.jpg
 
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RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81

Hahahaha! I got that stuff too. I was sifting through my box of cleaning stuff, acog mounts and other assorted goodies, until I pulled out the seasoning...my face was probably priceless.

Too bad Larue didn't include the front riser...I've actually stopped keeping sights on my AR15, I keep my ACOG too far back, so I need to mount the back sight forward (like an AK's sights) and I can see the front sight in my ACOG. I might buy some of those off angle sights though.
 
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Pia

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,563
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Increased barrel length does three things:

1.) Like everyone already mentioned, it allows for more energy transfer to the bullet.
2.) It increases the spin angular velocity of the bullet, which is important for gyroscopic stabilization.
3.) Longer barrels generally mean less report.
4.) It allows maximal sight distance, which is important if you want to do the most accurate work possible with iron sights. At least around here, serious IPSC guys shooting in standard class get 20-22" barrels and clamp their front sights right behind the muzzle brake, whereas us open class guys get away with 16-18" barrels because we don't need the iron sights.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Question: how, if you have barely any experience, would you know if a handguns sights are accurate or not?

Like, i shot my handgun and sucked balls. How would I (besides obvious inexperience) know it wasnt due to the sights not being accurate?

Hand it to a rangemaster and say "pay you $10 to hit the bullseye"?

It should be fine from the factory.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Question: how, if you have barely any experience, would you know if a handguns sights are accurate or not?

Like, i shot my handgun and sucked balls. How would I (besides obvious inexperience) know it wasnt due to the sights not being accurate?

this happens very rarely.

have someone else who is experienced shoot it.

you could try a laser bore sighter and compare the sights to where the laser dot hits. Otherwise there really is no way that I know of.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
this happens very rarely.

have someone else who is experienced shoot it.

you could try a laser bore sighter and compare the sights to where the laser dot hits. Otherwise there really is no way that I know of.

Yup. When I first had my Glock 21, I was awful. Awful groupings, awful aim. Grabbed a rangemaster I trusted, said "can you try this out? How's accuracy/the sights?" He hit center and grouped fine. I was just out 5 rounds or something.

I'm still not the best shot with my 1911, but I group well, and my aim is far improved.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
2
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you could try a laser bore sighter and compare the sights to where the laser dot hits. Otherwise there really is no way that I know of.

This is probably a good idea. Three possibilities:

1.) You are just aiming incorrectly. For fixed sights, you have to figure out the sight picture necessary to hit what you want to hit, you can't just use the sight picture you like. (This is akin to "zeroing" for nonadjustable sights, just hold over or under your natural sight picture).

2.) If the sights are off sideways (that is, the line from the rear sight notch to the front sight is no colinear with the bore), you have a problem that you should talk to CZ about.

3.) If the sights are so far off up or down that the correct sight picture either completely obstructs the target at close range (<10 yards), or the sight does not overlay the target at all, you have a problem that you should talk to CZ about.

It could be (1.) or (2.) or/and (3.).
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
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Question: how, if you have barely any experience, would you know if a handguns sights are accurate or not?

Like, i shot my handgun and sucked balls. How would I (besides obvious inexperience) know it wasnt due to the sights not being accurate?

If it's even a mediocre quality gun the chances of the sights being on from the factory are extremely good. If there is no one around that can shoot it for your get some sandbags or something you can make an impromptu rest from.