• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

YAGT: OMG I love guns

Page 400 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
I read that article. They don't even mention Kimber. Colt didn't offer many options. They mostly sold basic 1911s and charged an arm and a leg to have it customized. Kimber came along and offered models with the options people wanted. Now Kimber makes more than twice as many handguns as Colt. I'd also guess that Kimber is hugely profitable.

Remington got back into making 1911s in 2010, and by 2012 they were already making as many as Colt.
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
4
0
Wait...you're saying that Kimber beat Colt based on value?

I'm not arguing that their guns are/were not a better deal, but it just fills my mind with boggles to think that Kimber offers a better value than...anything.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
Wait...you're saying that Kimber beat Colt based on value?

I'm not arguing that their guns are/were not a better deal, but it just fills my mind with boggles to think that Kimber offers a better value than...anything.
Kimber Custom TLE II MSRP: $1,080.00

Basic series 70 Colt MSRP: $1,075.00
3 Dot Night Sights and machining: $275
Extended Thumb Safety: $130
Beavertail Grip Safety: $120
Flat Mainspring Housing: $150
Checkered Front Strao: $200
Front Slide Serrations: $110
Commander Hammer (Brownells): ~$50
Aluminum Trigger (Brownells): ~$25
Total: $2135.00

So buying a Kimber was much cheaper than buying a Colt and having them add what you could get with a Kimber.

Colt offers more options now, so that's no longer as valid. But when I first looked at a Colt 1911 it was either the basic model or a Gold Cup.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
116
When it comes to 1911s, there really is no point buying a $1000 gun and dumping $1000 into it to customize it.

In the end, it's still worth $1000 to the average buyer, and you would have been better off buying a $2000 factory gun.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
Which is why Kimber beat Colt. Colts didn't come the way you wanted them, and it's expensive to make them into what you want. Colt is doing a little bit better now with options.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
Which is why Kimber beat Colt. Colts didn't come the way you wanted them, and it's expensive to make them into what you want. Colt is doing a little bit better now with options.
Still, I've always kinda wondered why they haven't made a bigger push into the consumer market, especially with it's booming the last few years. Almost all of their products seem overpriced, under-featured and only worth buying so you can have a Colt branded gun in your collection.

Case in point, the Mustang. OK they brought it back and that's a good start, but why should I buy this over the more proven and often cheaper Sig P238? Not a single reason given. Where's their sub-compact 9mm option? Not a whisper. Any re-makes of the classic Colt revolvers? Nope, only a few SAA variants. Any innovations to the AR-15 platform? Not really, just high prices.

Not to mention I almost never see anything by Colt on gun store shelves anywhere. There's always one random Colt AR-15 and one or two random Colt 1911s. And nothing else.

Honestly I'm not surprised they have financial issues. I've never seen a company so reluctant to make money; except for maybe Glock with the pocket pistol market.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Maybe colt was happy to sit on the military contracts and got too fat and happy? Bad leadership if so.
 

velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
Maybe colt was happy to sit on the military contracts and got too fat and happy? Bad leadership if so.
or they have been living off their 6920 sales :) I like colt. make some nice guns but yeah they arent really keeping up with the times either. But what they do make is usually pretty dang good. 1911's might not be "full featured" but they are still pretty good guns
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
or they have been living off their 6920 sales :) I like colt. make some nice guns but yeah they arent really keeping up with the times either. But what they do make is usually pretty dang good. 1911's might not be "full featured" but they are still pretty good guns
True, but you're paying a premium for the name; and it's not like it's a custom firearm. I'd take a Springfield Loaded over a Colt any day, just getting more for my money. Colts are fine guns, just not worth the price given the competition.
 

velillen

Platinum Member
Jul 12, 2006
2,120
1
81
True, but you're paying a premium for the name; and it's not like it's a custom firearm. I'd take a Springfield Loaded over a Colt any day, just getting more for my money. Colts are fine guns, just not worth the price given the competition.
for their hand guns i completely agree. For an AR-15 Colts are hard ot beat for value and resell value.
 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,763
32
91
Some gun related stuff that I came across while in Alaska:

http://imgur.com/a/OHpkd

I found .35 Remington cartridge and the 20ga base in some ruins a few miles outside of Kennecott, which is an old mining town that was abandoned back in the 30's.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
1
0
I don't understand what the big deal is with 1911 features. People make it sound like a "loaded" 1911 is vastly different from a GI style. FWIW, I have both, and both are Colts (XSE vs. series 70 reproduction).

The way I see it:
Undercut trigger guard - great feature
Lowered & flared ejection port - great feature
Sights - can be personal preference, but most are a great improvement over stock
Extended safety - personal preference
Ambi safety - personal preference
Beaver tail grip safety - personal preference
"Memory" bump on grip safety - personal preference (I hate them)
Front strap checkering - personal preference
Original vs. A1 style MSH - personal preference
Front slide serrations - personal preference
Fancy slide serrations - personal preference
GI guide rod vs. FLGR - personal preference
Spur hammer vs. skeletonized - personal preference
Grips (Crimson Trace, exotic materials, slim, checkering, etc.) - personal preference
Firing pin safety - personal preference

There are other less common factory features, but those have an even smaller following from what I have seen.

What I'm trying to get at is that, in my opinion, there are really only three factory options that should appeal to the majority of the market (excluding the Browning-design purists, perhaps) - L&F ejection port, undercut trigger guard, and sights. Everything else seems to have a good chunk of the 1911 enthusiasts preferring one method or another (GI vs. FLGR and Series 70 vs Series 80 being great examples).

So, while some may think that a FLGR, A1-style MSH, ambi safety, extended safety / slide stop, slim grip, front slide serrations, skeletonized hammer, beaver tail safety, Series 80 1911 is far superior than one with the standard configuration, just as many would disagree.

On the other hand, there are some considerations, which I wouldn't call options, that add a ton to the value of a 1911. Those include the materials (forged vs. cast, MIM or investment cast vs. milled, etc.), fit, finish (including deburring), warranty, extras (magazines, holster, box, etc.), and resale value. That's what really sets one 1911 apart from another, not silly things like ambi safeties or guide rod configurations that can be changed by the other or a local gun smith for minimal time and effort. If you want all of those things on your gun, by all means get one that comes that way. But don't call your gun superior just because of a few things that may not appeal to someone else.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
I don't understand what the big deal is with 1911 features. People make it sound like a "loaded" 1911 is vastly different from a GI style. FWIW, I have both, and both are Colts (XSE vs. series 70 reproduction).

The way I see it:
Undercut trigger guard - great feature
Lowered & flared ejection port - great feature
Sights - can be personal preference, but most are a great improvement over stock
Extended safety - personal preference
Ambi safety - personal preference
Beaver tail grip safety - personal preference
"Memory" bump on grip safety - personal preference (I hate them)
Front strap checkering - personal preference
Original vs. A1 style MSH - personal preference
Front slide serrations - personal preference
Fancy slide serrations - personal preference
GI guide rod vs. FLGR - personal preference
Spur hammer vs. skeletonized - personal preference
Grips (Crimson Trace, exotic materials, slim, checkering, etc.) - personal preference
Firing pin safety - personal preference

There are other less common factory features, but those have an even smaller following from what I have seen.

What I'm trying to get at is that, in my opinion, there are really only three factory options that should appeal to the majority of the market (excluding the Browning-design purists, perhaps) - L&F ejection port, undercut trigger guard, and sights. Everything else seems to have a good chunk of the 1911 enthusiasts preferring one method or another (GI vs. FLGR and Series 70 vs Series 80 being great examples).

So, while some may think that a FLGR, A1-style MSH, ambi safety, extended safety / slide stop, slim grip, front slide serrations, skeletonized hammer, beaver tail safety, Series 80 1911 is far superior than one with the standard configuration, just as many would disagree.

On the other hand, there are some considerations, which I wouldn't call options, that add a ton to the value of a 1911. Those include the materials (forged vs. cast, MIM or investment cast vs. milled, etc.), fit, finish (including deburring), warranty, extras (magazines, holster, box, etc.), and resale value. That's what really sets one 1911 apart from another, not silly things like ambi safeties or guide rod configurations that can be changed by the other or a local gun smith for minimal time and effort. If you want all of those things on your gun, by all means get one that comes that way. But don't call your gun superior just because of a few things that may not appeal to someone else.
Well not all of those are "personal preference" for everyone. I have fairly small hands (usually wear a US men's size small or medium glove), and a lot of the "loaded" ergonomic improvements greatly improve my handling of a 1911. A prime example is I can't cock a spur hammer without taking my finger off the trigger guard and angling my wrist. With a delta or commander style hammer, no such problem. The beaver tail ensures that I don't grab the gun high enough to get slide bite, and the grip safety bump (not sure what it has to do with memory) ensures that I fully depress the grip safety 100% of the time as opposed to 97% of the time. :p

And Springfield's loaded line in particular comes with, as you state, better fit and finish. I've lost the checklist that came with mine and can't find it online, but when I bought my Lightweight Champion Operator it came with a list of about a dozen fit/finish improvements that Springfield specifically does for a loaded.


So yeah while in terms of a war-fighting gun some of this stuff may not make much of a difference, it definitely provides a much smoother experience IMO.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,640
7
81
Well not all of those are "personal preference" for everyone. I have fairly small hands (usually wear a US men's size small or medium glove), and a lot of the "loaded" ergonomic improvements greatly improve my handling of a 1911. A prime example is I can't cock a spur hammer without taking my finger off the trigger guard and angling my wrist. With a delta or commander style hammer, no such problem. The beaver tail ensures that I don't grab the gun high enough to get slide bite, and the grip safety bump (not sure what it has to do with memory) ensures that I fully depress the grip safety 100% of the time as opposed to 97% of the time. :p

And Springfield's loaded line in particular comes with, as you state, better fit and finish. I've lost the checklist that came with mine and can't find it online, but when I bought my Lightweight Champion Operator it came with a list of about a dozen fit/finish improvements that Springfield specifically does for a loaded.


So yeah while in terms of a war-fighting gun some of this stuff may not make much of a difference, it definitely provides a much smoother experience IMO.
Actually you just basically defined "personal preference" as none of that applies to me :colbert:
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
4
0
What I find odd about a lot of those 'custom' options is that they're stuff that can be found standard on guns in, like, the $3-500 range...

If a company has the mentality of 'here's our shitty design...if you want us to think about it some more, starting laying down stacks of cash'...yeah, they're not getting my business.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
Actually you just basically defined "personal preference" as none of that applies to me :colbert:
Not quite. "Personal preference" to me implies something like "this feels better than that", not "this functions better than that". Even if the increase in functionality is marginal, it's still a matter of improved functionality, not preference.
 

corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,640
7
81
Not quite. "Personal preference" to me implies something like "this feels better than that", not "this functions better than that". Even if the increase in functionality is marginal, it's still a matter of improved functionality, not preference.
Actually yes, you didn't say something doesn't function at all for you, you just prefer options that make it easier for your hands to do certain things...the standard configuration functions just fine for me and many others, it also functions fine for you with a little more effort, you just prefer not to make that extra effort...nothing wrong with that at all, I personally prefer the way many of them look over the basics, but it is just preference outside of a few that enhance reliability
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
I don't understand what the big deal is with 1911 features.
It's wasteful and a lot more expensive to get a gun without the features you want and then add them.

FWIW, I have both, and both are Colts (XSE vs. series 70 reproduction).
Reading your post, it's obvious you are a Colt fan.

Firing pin safety - personal preference
I thought it was mostly just the lawyers who liked that one.

So, while some may think that a FLGR, A1-style MSH, ambi safety, extended safety / slide stop, slim grip, front slide serrations, skeletonized hammer, beaver tail safety, Series 80 1911 is far superior than one with the standard configuration, just as many would disagree.
I think the majority favor most of those features. Except the series 70 is preferred over the 80, at least in regard to the unnecessary firing pin safety. Maybe not slim grips either.

Look at Ruger. They make more handguns than any other US manufacturer. Since they only make one model 1911, I'm assuming they mostly went with what market research said was the most popular options, balanced with cost and ease of use. Front strap checkering was probably considered too expensive, and a full length guide rod would make it too difficult to disassemble for someone not use to it. So beavertail, combat hammer, light weight skeletonized trigger, Novak sights, extended safety, and flat mainspring housing are all features that the majority want.

On the other hand, there are some considerations, which I wouldn't call options, that add a ton to the value of a 1911. Those include the materials (forged vs. cast, MIM or investment cast vs. milled, etc.),
All the large manufacturers use cast and/or MIM parts. If you want all forged and machined you have to get one from a small manufacturer or a custom shop. Colt even uses plastic parts in their guns nowadays.

That's what really sets one 1911 apart from another, not silly things like ambi safeties or guide rod configurations that can be changed by the other or a local gun smith for minimal time and effort.
And money. That's my main point. If the gun doesn't come the way you want it, it's expensive to make it the way you want it. It's also wasteful since the money spent customizing it adds very little to the resale value.
 
Last edited:

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
1
0
Not quite. "Personal preference" to me implies something like "this feels better than that", not "this functions better than that". Even if the increase in functionality is marginal, it's still a matter of improved functionality, not preference.
The thing is, those features don't necessarily function better for everyone either. I too wear a medium glove, probably on the smaller side of medium, and I find the bump on the grip safety to be a huge annoyance (see http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182456 for why it's called a memory bump). I can reach a spur hammer just as well as a commander hammer or delta hammer, and have never had any problems with grip or slide bite from any style grip safety. I actually prefer spur hammers and standard grip safeties because of the way they feel in certain holsters (the beaver tail digs in a certain way when I bend).

Yes, fit and finish is normally better on a loaded gun than a GI style from the same manufacturer, but when you're comparing say, Kimber to Colt, or Springfield to Taurus (the point of my original comment), it all goes out the window. Case in point:

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=59&category=Pistol
FLGR, flared ejection port, front slide serrations, beaver tail grip safety, commander hammer, ambidextrous safety, front strap checkering, Novak-style sights, etc.

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt1991%C2%AESeries.aspx
Pretty much all standard, except for the lowered ejection port.

Which one would generally be considered the superior gun?

Again, my point isn't that the extras that come with numerous modern 1911s are useless. I'm just saying that they don't make as big of a difference as people think. Some things work better for some people, some don't. Fit, finish, materials, warranty, etc. are what set one manufacturer apart from another one, not the things they tack on.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
1
0
It's wasteful and a lot more expensive to get a gun without the features you want and then add them.
Agreed.

Reading your post, it's obvious you are a Colt fan.
I am, but only because they offer what I want at a price point that I can handle. If I had the money, I'd likely be an Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, or Nighthawk fan. If Colt goes under, I'll likely look into S&W, Sig, Springfield, and others. FWIW, I do own S&Ws, Rugers, Sigs, and others, just not in the 1911 platform. My wife has an STI though. :p When I bought an AR-15, I went with S&W instead of Colt or others, because they had a great package at a great price. It's certainly not Colt or nothing in my mind.

I really wish Sig or S&W use an internal extractor; I've really liked what I see them coming out with otherwise.

I thought it was mostly just the lawyers who liked that one.
I'd say mostly, yes, but I have talked with people that will only carry a 1911 that has a firing pin safety. To each their own. I'd actually guess that the majority of 1911 owners have no clue what S70 vs. S80 even means or what the advantages and disadvantages to having a firing pin safety are.

I think the majority favor most of those features. Except the series 70 is preferred over the 80, at least in regard to the unnecessary firing pin safety. Maybe not slim grips either.
I disagree. Perhaps for people that are buying their first (or second...) 1911, or already have a substaintial collection and want something different. However I have talked to and known a fair number of people that only want GI configurations and can't stand any of the enhanced features, and some Google searching seems to confirm that. So I'd say there's a fair market for both.

Look at Ruger. They make more handguns than any other US manufacturer. Since they only make one model 1911, I'm assuming they mostly went with what market research said was the most popular options, balanced with cost and ease of use. Front strap checkering was probably considered too expensive, and a full length guide rod would make it too difficult to disassemble for someone not use to it. So beavertail, combat hammer, light weight skeletonized trigger, Novak sights, extended safety, and flat mainspring housing are all features that the majority want.
And I'd agree, but keep in mind that they're dealing with perception as well as performance. If GM starts offering voice-controlled 4WD, headlights, and wipers on their trucks, Ford, Dodge, et al. had better follow suit or come up with their own answer soon enough, or it could turn into a sore point for people that are comparing the vehicles across the spectrum. It's not that the average person needs or even wants those features, but it's easy to get caught up in the "hey, check this out!" and "aww, but the other brand has X" mentality rather than comparing the really important stuff - fuel economy, reliability, warranty, etc. I've literally seen people buy a vehicle from one brand because it had a sunroof and the other didn't, even though the vehicle without the sunroof had a better history, lower miles, etc. If that's what makes them happy, great, I just don't agree with making choices based on features when there's so much to gain elsewhere.

All the large manufacturers use cast and/or MIM parts. If you want all forged and machined you have to get one from a small manufacturer or a custom shop. Colt even uses plastic parts in their guns nowadays.
Yeah, and I really wish that they didn't. However, from the research that I've done, Colt seems to come ahead of most others in terms of how many cheap parts they end up using at a similar price point. It may have changed since I researched it, but the Colt vs. Kimber MIM debates get pretty heated. I saw a few stats about Sig and Ruger as well, and I'm not sure about STI, S&W, and several others, but I'm tempted to go check.

And money. That's my main point. If the gun doesn't come the way you want it, it's expensive to make it the way you want it. It's also wasteful since the money spent customizing it adds very little to the resale value.
I absolutely agree. My point is only that too many people get hung up on all of the special features a 1911 comes with and not looking at the really important stuff. To put it another way, let's say you wanted a delta hammer, beaver tail, skeletonized trigger, and ambi safety. Would you take all of those on a cast frame, cast slide gun from the Philippines, or drop all of those features to get a forged frame / slide, made in the USA gun for the same price? That's only figurative, but I'm sure there are some "bargain loaded" 1911 to compare with solid GI-spec 1911s around the same price.
 
Last edited:

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
Would you take all of those on a cast frame, cast slide gun from the Philippines, or drop all of those features to get a forged frame / slide, made in the USA gun for the same price?
But they aren't the same price. The Filipino 1911's are half the cost.

Academy Sports has the Citadel 1911 9mm on sale for $329.99, right now.
 

sa7an1

Member
Jun 3, 2010
97
0
0
Kimber Custom TLE II MSRP: $1,080.00

Basic series 70 Colt MSRP: $1,075.00
3 Dot Night Sights and machining: $275
Extended Thumb Safety: $130
Beavertail Grip Safety: $120
Flat Mainspring Housing: $150
Checkered Front Strao: $200
Front Slide Serrations: $110
Commander Hammer (Brownells): ~$50
Aluminum Trigger (Brownells): ~$25
Total: $2135.00

So buying a Kimber was much cheaper than buying a Colt and having them add what you could get with a Kimber.

Colt offers more options now, so that's no longer as valid. But when I first looked at a Colt 1911 it was either the basic model or a Gold Cup.
:p your missing the gunsmith costs to fit everything. and i would take my Dan Wesson over the 2 Kimbers it cost me
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY