YAGT: My fault that she didn't arrange a ride home

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Hold up a minute,you were too drunk to give her a ride but were planning on going over
for to spend the night later?

I wasn't drunk at the time. I had stopped drinking. I just don't like driving with alcohol in my system. I was going to drive over there in an hour or so once I was sober.

ya, i have a problem with this too. I don't see how the hour or so between when you should have picked her up and when you planned on visiting makes any difference. If you respected her, and wanted to be with her, you would have picked her up. Just admit it to yourself, and move on, I suppose.

1 hour can mean the difference between nothing happening or a license revocation and thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

ie: he couldn't be bothered with picking her up,but when he was done drinking and socializing he'd have driven over there to let her suck him off.

Wow are you nuts?

I was eating dinner with my roomate. I had stopped drinking. When I had sobered up completely, I was going to come over.

That is it.

Don't you realise how that sounds?

oh,walk home honey,if I'm sober later I'll come over... that sounds horrible,you should have simply cancelled the entire evening.

"I get a call from her at about 8:30. I had been home with my roomate--we had made spaghetti and we were both drinking wine. I wasn't drunk, but I had had too much to drive. "


Read this part again. She called after he had already been drinking.

ok... and at that point he should have simply told her he'd had too much to drink and cancelled their plans for the entire evening.

He tells her to walk home in the dark but also said when he sobered up he still planned
on swinging by her place to spend the night.

Sorry but that sounds really crappy.

You're twisting my words.

And why would I not come over later if I was going to be sober enough to? Why cancel an entire evening just because I couldn't drive at that exact moment?

lol,let me translate that for you....


I'm not sober enough to drive to help you now... but in a couple hours I will be sober enough to drive over to help myself to a piece of ass.

Sorry son but that's exactly how that sounds.

I'm not your son.

What don't you understand about alcohol? I couldn't drive then, but I could drive over later. This was the plan all day long--I did NOT "change plans" by drinking.

She called you needing your help..you're too drunk to help her but later,you're gonna magically be just fine?


You did her a favor by dumping her.

Magically be fine? I can't believe at your age that you don't understand how alcohol and being drunk work. To sum it up, after you drink you don't stay drunk forever. As time passes, you get more and more sober.

If he had made plans with her, and then had to cancel them because he drank, then he WOULD have done something wrong, and she would still be mad at him this morning, justifiably. The two of them had pre-existing plans which he still would have been able to keep, he just was not in any condition to change his plans on the spur of the moment to suit her.

Your entire case that he did something wrong is built around the fact that he would still be able to keep his pre-existing plans. Where exactly did he make an error? In making plans, in drinking only at a time where he could keep those plans, in not canceling those plans even though he could still make them? You can't honestly tell me that if had posted a scenario where he drank and then had to cancel his plans because he was too drunk, that you wouldn't have blamed him as much, if not more.

So really you would have placed the blame on him in every case, even though you can't specifically point to anything that he did wrong. Please just admit that you're not thinking logically in any manner and that his main fault is in not being psychic, or in not driving drunk.

 

[kstu]

Originally posted by: Tizyler
Why do some people have so much trouble understanding this concept:

Dinner with wine at 8PM.
Plans for me to come over at 10PM.

I drank at 8, but not so much that I would need to stay home all night. At the same time, I wasn't going to drive right after drinking.

This seems very clear cut to me.

just wanted to add to this with my experience from last night as well.

i planned to drive at 10 pm. i had about 4 glasses of wine between 630 and 830 with dinner and the start of a movie, before i cut myself off (unlike the op, im comfortable driving with a drink or so in my system). if someone had called me to pick them up at 830 i would have told them no way. however, i wouldnt have canceled my plans to leave at 10.

 

[FilmCamera]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: yllus
It is. While it's a squeamish subject, the fact of the matter is that if she can continuously nudge you in the direction of becoming her indentured servant, she will. (Ditto for guys doing it to their girlfriends, it's not a gender thing.)

Realistically, you have to establish limits as to what you're willing to do for each other - it's great to cultivate the idea that you'll do anything for each other, but not becoming a doormat means that can't be completely true.

Yeah but while you are busy not becoming a doormat don't become an idiot also and that's what he was doing thinking that he could use the excuse he had to much to drink not to pick her up but it would be ok to come over later for some nookie. I don't think there is a woman out there with any self esteem that would go for that.

I'd definitely say that you have a very good point in that. However, from her reactions after the fact, I think that was too subtle a point for her (or him) to get - her outrage seems to be over the fact that he should be willing to drop everything and hook himself up to an IV in order to get over there and pick her up. That's just ridiculous, and it's unwise in the extreme to start to honour unrealistic expectations like that.

Well at least he manned up and broke up with her in person..oh wait, he didn't..DOH!

Your points really make no sense.

Are you going for cheap shots because you're in the wrong

I'm in the wrong? Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

If I said something like that towards Geekbabe...like look you stupid little bitch...you'd ban me before I could hit post.

But of course it's okay for you to say that about whoever you want. Nobody is going to ban you over it.

 

[Dacalo]

Originally posted by: DaShen
Girls have certain expectations when it comes to boyfriends. Yes, she is being irrational, but that comes with the territory man. And a big :thumbsdown: with saying you should break up, just to play mindgames and force her to apologize. It may be better off if you guys don't see each other if you have to do that stuff.

What you should have done is been really apologetic about not being able to drive, and go out of your way to call up people to try to get her a ride home. She would have really appreciated that, and realized that you really couldn't drive in your condition and that you were still willing to put the effort for her.

Turn a negative into a positive man, before it gets ugly, but since it already has. MYSPACE is adataway.

I couldn't agree with you more, that's what I would have done. What the OP did with "break up" card is asinine, he is no different from her.

 

[TheTony]

OP is at fault for his initial reaction - not providing some kind of assistance. He could have done so without having to drive.

OP's GF is at fault for putting OP in the situation. Sounds like she knew she might need a ride and did not make plans accordingly.

I see the point of those saying OP is trying to "have his cake and eat it too", but you could subsitute drinking with another activity that would have rendered him unavailable until later that evening, and the result is still the same. Could he have handled it better? Sure? Does that make it his fault for where he finds himself? Not entirely.

Bottom line - niether is in the clear. Sounds to me like both have their own pride preventing them from allowing them to admit it and move on.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: FilmCamera

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Hold up a minute,you were too drunk to give her a ride but were planning on going over
for to spend the night later?

I wasn't drunk at the time. I had stopped drinking. I just don't like driving with alcohol in my system. I was going to drive over there in an hour or so once I was sober.

ya, i have a problem with this too. I don't see how the hour or so between when you should have picked her up and when you planned on visiting makes any difference. If you respected her, and wanted to be with her, you would have picked her up. Just admit it to yourself, and move on, I suppose.

1 hour can mean the difference between nothing happening or a license revocation and thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

ie: he couldn't be bothered with picking her up,but when he was done drinking and socializing he'd have driven over there to let her suck him off.

Wow are you nuts?

I was eating dinner with my roomate. I had stopped drinking. When I had sobered up completely, I was going to come over.

That is it.

Don't you realise how that sounds?

oh,walk home honey,if I'm sober later I'll come over... that sounds horrible,you should have simply cancelled the entire evening.

"I get a call from her at about 8:30. I had been home with my roomate--we had made spaghetti and we were both drinking wine. I wasn't drunk, but I had had too much to drive. "


Read this part again. She called after he had already been drinking.

ok... and at that point he should have simply told her he'd had too much to drink and cancelled their plans for the entire evening.

He tells her to walk home in the dark but also said when he sobered up he still planned
on swinging by her place to spend the night.

Sorry but that sounds really crappy.

You're twisting my words.

And why would I not come over later if I was going to be sober enough to? Why cancel an entire evening just because I couldn't drive at that exact moment?

Hahahaha, you have a lot to learn about women son:laugh:

Especially the nuts ones like your wife is appearing to be in this thread.

Oh yeah, you have been drinking and don't feel comfortable with driving but you should do it anyway!!!

what do you call a girl that you don't have to help or do anything for but you can slip by her place late at night for a piece of ass after you've finished drinking and partying ? anybody know what we call those gals?

Honestly, I think that's a pretty broad assumption to make. It's not unreasonable to plan to see your SO every night without the premise of sex.

 

[I Saw OJ]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ
I think the OP is in the right. His girlfriend is being ridiculous.

I'm so glad my g/f doesnt think like her or Geekbabe. :disgust:

I'm thinking you never pulled a stunt like that with your GF.

No, I cant say that I have. However I know she doesn't have such an asinine level of thinking as to make such a huge deal over something like that.

 

[wetcat007]

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Queasy
If she can only count on her friends and family...where were they in this little episode? Why didn't she call one of them instead of you?

She did after she called me. She found a ride home without much problem.

She told me originally that she would walk home if she couldn't find a ride... it's about a mile (it was dark though). I told her that if she had to, then to do it (politely). That is what spurred the episode. ("you don't care about me").

Oh the irony, she'll spend the day at the gym, but walking home a mile is impossible of course...

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

You deserve a vacation for this childish personal attack.

Red, you crossed the line here. I know you have always liked to flame the youngsters here, and frankly I have greatly enjoyed watching you do so many times, but that is a blatant personal attack that used to not be tolerated here.
If someone pissed you off bad enough to post this, you need to just say enough, because they've won if you respond this way.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ
I think the OP is in the right. His girlfriend is being ridiculous.

I'm so glad my g/f doesnt think like her or Geekbabe. :disgust:

I'm thinking you never pulled a stunt like that with your GF.

No, I cant say that I have. However I know she doesn't have such an asinine level of thinking as to make such a huge deal over something like that.

And you know better than to do something like that.

 

[FilmCamera]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: FilmCamera

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Hold up a minute,you were too drunk to give her a ride but were planning on going over
for to spend the night later?

I wasn't drunk at the time. I had stopped drinking. I just don't like driving with alcohol in my system. I was going to drive over there in an hour or so once I was sober.

ya, i have a problem with this too. I don't see how the hour or so between when you should have picked her up and when you planned on visiting makes any difference. If you respected her, and wanted to be with her, you would have picked her up. Just admit it to yourself, and move on, I suppose.

1 hour can mean the difference between nothing happening or a license revocation and thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

ie: he couldn't be bothered with picking her up,but when he was done drinking and socializing he'd have driven over there to let her suck him off.

Wow are you nuts?

I was eating dinner with my roomate. I had stopped drinking. When I had sobered up completely, I was going to come over.

That is it.

Don't you realise how that sounds?

oh,walk home honey,if I'm sober later I'll come over... that sounds horrible,you should have simply cancelled the entire evening.

"I get a call from her at about 8:30. I had been home with my roomate--we had made spaghetti and we were both drinking wine. I wasn't drunk, but I had had too much to drive. "


Read this part again. She called after he had already been drinking.

ok... and at that point he should have simply told her he'd had too much to drink and cancelled their plans for the entire evening.

He tells her to walk home in the dark but also said when he sobered up he still planned
on swinging by her place to spend the night.

Sorry but that sounds really crappy.

You're twisting my words.

And why would I not come over later if I was going to be sober enough to? Why cancel an entire evening just because I couldn't drive at that exact moment?

Hahahaha, you have a lot to learn about women son:laugh:

Especially the nuts ones like your wife is appearing to be in this thread.

Oh yeah, you have been drinking and don't feel comfortable with driving but you should do it anyway!!!

what do you call a girl that you don't have to help or do anything for but you can slip by her place late at night for a piece of ass after you've finished drinking and partying ? anybody know what we call those gals?


cancelling the entire evening would have been a MUCH smarter move.

Your problem is that you are assuming what his intentions for the evening were, when you have no clue.

I mean...it's not a big deal to get a ride from a friend at 8:30 at night.

Maybe he could have phrased it better...like sorry I don't feel safe driving right now since I've had a few drinks, could you please call one of your friends for a ride and if you can't find one let me know and I'll see about getting you a cab. Something like that would have been better IMHO, but I think the GF overreacted to the situation.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: yowolabi

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: DeadByDawn

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Hold up a minute,you were too drunk to give her a ride but were planning on going over
for to spend the night later?

I wasn't drunk at the time. I had stopped drinking. I just don't like driving with alcohol in my system. I was going to drive over there in an hour or so once I was sober.

ya, i have a problem with this too. I don't see how the hour or so between when you should have picked her up and when you planned on visiting makes any difference. If you respected her, and wanted to be with her, you would have picked her up. Just admit it to yourself, and move on, I suppose.

1 hour can mean the difference between nothing happening or a license revocation and thousands of dollars in attorney fees.

ie: he couldn't be bothered with picking her up,but when he was done drinking and socializing he'd have driven over there to let her suck him off.

Wow are you nuts?

I was eating dinner with my roomate. I had stopped drinking. When I had sobered up completely, I was going to come over.

That is it.

Don't you realise how that sounds?

oh,walk home honey,if I'm sober later I'll come over... that sounds horrible,you should have simply cancelled the entire evening.

"I get a call from her at about 8:30. I had been home with my roomate--we had made spaghetti and we were both drinking wine. I wasn't drunk, but I had had too much to drive. "


Read this part again. She called after he had already been drinking.

ok... and at that point he should have simply told her he'd had too much to drink and cancelled their plans for the entire evening.

He tells her to walk home in the dark but also said when he sobered up he still planned
on swinging by her place to spend the night.

Sorry but that sounds really crappy.

You're twisting my words.

And why would I not come over later if I was going to be sober enough to? Why cancel an entire evening just because I couldn't drive at that exact moment?

lol,let me translate that for you....


I'm not sober enough to drive to help you now... but in a couple hours I will be sober enough to drive over to help myself to a piece of ass.

Sorry son but that's exactly how that sounds.

I'm not your son.

What don't you understand about alcohol? I couldn't drive then, but I could drive over later. This was the plan all day long--I did NOT "change plans" by drinking.

She called you needing your help..you're too drunk to help her but later,you're gonna magically be just fine?


You did her a favor by dumping her.

Magically be fine? I can't believe at your age that you don't understand how alcohol and being drunk work. To sum it up, after you drink you don't stay drunk forever. As time passes, you get more and more sober.

If he had made plans with her, and then had to cancel them because he drank, then he WOULD have done something wrong, and she would still be mad at him this morning, justifiably. The two of them had pre-existing plans which he still would have been able to keep, he just was not in any condition to change his plans on the spur of the moment to suit her.

Your entire case that he did something wrong is built around the fact that he would still be able to keep his pre-existing plans. Where exactly did he make an error? In making plans, in drinking only at a time where he could keep those plans, in not canceling those plans even though he could still make them? You can't honestly tell me that if had posted a scenario where he drank and then had to cancel his plans because he was too drunk, that you wouldn't have blamed him as much, if not more.

So really you would have placed the blame on him in every case, even though you can't specifically point to anything that he did wrong. Please just admit that you're not thinking logically in any manner and that his main fault is in not being psychic, or in not driving drunk.

Believe it or not I've had more than one date cancelled because my date had to work late or became ill or gasp... had too much to drink unintentionally,this stuff happens and as long as it doesn't happen all the time,there's nothing to get upset about.Sorry but being told you can't help me but that you'll be over at 10pm.. that would make me think the guy thinks I'm some sort of ho or something.

Iwant to add that since he broke up with her via email,didn't even have the decency to drive over to do it face to face,that expending energy on this relationship isn't something he's too keen on anyway.They're both probably better off breaking up.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

You deserve a vacation for this childish personal attack.

Yeah he can ban himself!

 

[kstu]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Angry?? I'm not angry, I love flaming clueless morons.:heart:

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
No unlike most of you wankers some of us understand women.

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm in the wrong? Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

just wanted to consolidate these as an example of one of AT's finest members.

 

[I Saw OJ]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ
I think the OP is in the right. His girlfriend is being ridiculous.

I'm so glad my g/f doesnt think like her or Geekbabe. :disgust:

I'm thinking you never pulled a stunt like that with your GF.

No, I cant say that I have. However I know she doesn't have such an asinine level of thinking as to make such a huge deal over something like that.

And you know better than to do something like that.

Know better than to do what? Not read her mind to know that she went to the gym without a ride home? Come on Red

 

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: wetcat007

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Queasy
If she can only count on her friends and family...where were they in this little episode? Why didn't she call one of them instead of you?

She did after she called me. She found a ride home without much problem.

She told me originally that she would walk home if she couldn't find a ride... it's about a mile (it was dark though). I told her that if she had to, then to do it (politely). That is what spurred the episode. ("you don't care about me").

Oh the irony, she'll spend the day at the gym, but walking home a mile is impossible of course...

In the dark...

This seems like the type of thinking that got the OP in this situation to begin with. I'd expect any woman with even a modicum of self respect to withhold the sex for an indefinate period for even suggesting that she walk home a mile in the dark because you can't be bothered to help her arrange a ride. It's true that he may not have been able to do much, but he deserves at least a little scorn dismissing it so quickly. How hard is it to call a fscking cab?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: kstu

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Angry?? I'm not angry, I love flaming clueless morons.:heart:

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
No unlike most of you wankers some of us understand women.

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm in the wrong? Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

just wanted to consolidate these as an example of one of AT's finest members.

Finest member?? How many glasses of wine have you had?

 

[xXped0thugXx]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
you sent her a breakup email?

laaaaame.

i dont think she deserves anything more... after this horsesh!t

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: ggnl

Originally posted by: wetcat007

Originally posted by: Tizyler

Originally posted by: Queasy
If she can only count on her friends and family...where were they in this little episode? Why didn't she call one of them instead of you?

She did after she called me. She found a ride home without much problem.

She told me originally that she would walk home if she couldn't find a ride... it's about a mile (it was dark though). I told her that if she had to, then to do it (politely). That is what spurred the episode. ("you don't care about me").

Oh the irony, she'll spend the day at the gym, but walking home a mile is impossible of course...

In the dark...

This seems like the type of thinking that got the OP in this situation to begin with. I'd expect any woman with even a modicum of self respect to withhold the sex for an indefinate period for even suggesting that she walk home a mile in the dark because you can't be bothered to help her arrange a ride. It's true that he may not have been able to do much, but he deserves at least a little scorn dismissing it so quickly. How hard is it to call a fscking cab?

Thank you...



Btw,I'm not saying that she shouldn't have made better plans to get back from the gym.. what I am saying is that I can understand why she reacted as she did.

 

[RedArmy]

Why couldn't she call a cab? Is she incapable of any rational thinking?

IMHO, I think the OP was trying to be nice saying that while he was uncomfortable operating a vehicle at the time that he would still try to come over later after the alcohol left his system.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ
I think the OP is in the right. His girlfriend is being ridiculous.

I'm so glad my g/f doesnt think like her or Geekbabe. :disgust:

I'm thinking you never pulled a stunt like that with your GF.

No, I cant say that I have. However I know she doesn't have such an asinine level of thinking as to make such a huge deal over something like that.

And you know better than to do something like that.

Know better than to do what? Not read her mind to know that she went to the gym without a ride home? Come on Red

OK, you're right there. She's at fault for thinking she could count on this guy for a ride home. What I'm saying though is that her reaction is pretty typical from my experience.

 

[Zysoclaplem]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: kstu

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Angry?? I'm not angry, I love flaming clueless morons.:heart:

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
No unlike most of you wankers some of us understand women.

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm in the wrong? Look you little bitch I'm not the one running to ATOT looking for confirmation for my actions.

just wanted to consolidate these as an example of one of AT's finest members.

Finest member?? How many glasses of wine have you had, bitch?

Fixed

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Tizyler
I'm sorry, this sounds like a high school YAGT thread.

I was going to stop there, but decided against my better judgment to read on...

Update:
I just sent her an email telling her we needed to stop seeing each other.

It's more of a scare tactic. If she apologizes and seems to have the brain power to understand that she is in the wrong, I will veto it. If not, its over.

And there we go. You sir just made yourself out to be an asshole, and if she is wise will take you up on your offer.

 

[I Saw OJ]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: I Saw OJ
I think the OP is in the right. His girlfriend is being ridiculous.

I'm so glad my g/f doesnt think like her or Geekbabe. :disgust:

I'm thinking you never pulled a stunt like that with your GF.

No, I cant say that I have. However I know she doesn't have such an asinine level of thinking as to make such a huge deal over something like that.

And you know better than to do something like that.

Know better than to do what? Not read her mind to know that she went to the gym without a ride home? Come on Red

OK, you're right there. She's at fault for thinking she could count on this guy for a ride home. What I'm saying though is that her reaction is pretty typical from my experience.

You're right she should be able to count on him, however her getting this upset at him for not sitting by the phone waiting for her phone call is silly. Maybe I've found a keeper if my g/f doesn't think like that.

edit for spelling

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Btw,I'm not saying that she shouldn't have made better plans to get back from the gym.. what I am saying is that I can understand why she reacted as she did.

Why cannot you not accept that It's not always the man's fault.

Bull. She completely and totally had contempt and disrepect for her SO. That kind of assine, childish, immature, self-centered attitude not to mention the whole not returning calls letting them know your OK.

ground for immediate dissmal no matter how long you have been dating It's an underlying indication of a serious personality disorder and contempt for somebody you are supposed to care for.