YAGT: M1 Carbine versus M1 Garand

[Schadenfroh]

What is the differance between these two rifles besides how they load, rate of fire, and their magazine, is the garand more accurate than the carbine and the carbine have a higher rate of fire? also, do they take differant types of ammo?

 

[burnedout]

M1 Garand fires 30.06. M1 Carbine fires 30 caliber. The Garand was designed as a battle rifle while the Carbine was intended more as a sidearm or replacement for the M1911.

 

[MacBaine]

The Garand has much more recoil, more accurate, more powerful, and is bigger/bulkier than the M1. The M1 was a lighter, more compact rifle with less recoil, but was also not as powerful or accurate.

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
What is the differance between these two rifles besides how they load, rate of fire, and their magazine, is the garand more accurate than the carbine and the carbine have a higher rate of fire? also, do they take differant types of ammo?

No comparison is possible, they served concurrently, for different purposes. I have shot both, own both. My IBM built carbine was meant to serve 'backline' forces as a more accurate 'pistol'. In fact, it shoots a pistol round. The .30 carbine round has been used in pistols since the time of WWII.

The Garand, on the other hand, is a 7.62x63mm powerhouse (.30-06). It is a frontline weapon, which was superior to the German Mauser and Japanese Arisaka (and allied British Enfield). The other rifles were bolt action, highly reliable, but could not sustain a high rate of fire. The Garand will kick you like a mule, with its steel buttplate. I shot a Garand in our CPM matches out to 500 yards with ease.

An old WWII vet told me an interesting story about Garands in battle in the pacific. The Garand uses an 8 round spring steel clip. The ammo came in boxes that were already in the clips, ready to go. You just shove in a clip and let the bolt go and its ready to fire. When the last round is fired, the spring steel clip flies out the top of the rifle and hits the ground with a distintive 'shing' sound. A sound very different than the spent shells hitting the ground (the clips were normally not retrieved).

He said that the Japanese would wait until they heard that particular sound before bringing on their fire, or charging, or whatever, because they knew the Americans were reloading at that point (or at least someone was reloading). So some of the US GI's would keep a few spent clips and then toss them in the air to create the sound when they hit the ground. Then, of course, tricking the Japanese to think they needed to reload....

 

[Mallow]

pics?

 

[BlueWeasel]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
What is the differance between these two rifles besides how they load, rate of fire, and their magazine, is the garand more accurate than the carbine and the carbine have a higher rate of fire? also, do they take differant types of ammo?

No comparison is possible, they served concurrently, for different purposes. I have shot both, own both. My IBM built carbine was meant to serve 'backline' forces as a more accurate 'pistol'. In fact, it shoots a pistol round. The .30 carbine round has been used in pistols since the time of WWII.

The Garand, on the other hand, is a 7.62x63mm powerhouse (.30-06). It is a frontline weapon, which was superior to the German Mauser and Japanese Arisaka (and allied British Enfield). The other rifles were bolt action, highly reliable, but could not sustain a high rate of fire. The Garand will kick you like a mule, with its steel buttplate. I shot a Garand in our CPM matches out to 500 yards with ease.

An old WWII vet told me an interesting story about Garands in battle in the pacific. The Garand uses an 8 round spring steel clip. The ammo came in boxes that were already in the clips, ready to go. You just shove in a clip and let the bolt go and its ready to fire. When the last round is fired, the spring steel clip flies out the top of the rifle and hits the ground with a distintive 'shing' sound. A sound very different than the spent shells hitting the ground (the clips were normally not retrieved).

He said that the Japanese would wait until they heard that particular sound before bringing on their fire, or charging, or whatever, because they knew the Americans were reloading at that point (or at least someone was reloading). So some of the US GI's would keep a few spent clips and then toss them in the air to create the sound when they hit the ground. Then, of course, tricking the Japanese to think they needed to reload....

Interesting story....so the noise that the Garand makes on the last round is when the clip hits the ground? I always thought it was when the clip was ejected from the gun.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: BlueWeasel

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
What is the differance between these two rifles besides how they load, rate of fire, and their magazine, is the garand more accurate than the carbine and the carbine have a higher rate of fire? also, do they take differant types of ammo?

No comparison is possible, they served concurrently, for different purposes. I have shot both, own both. My IBM built carbine was meant to serve 'backline' forces as a more accurate 'pistol'. In fact, it shoots a pistol round. The .30 carbine round has been used in pistols since the time of WWII.

The Garand, on the other hand, is a 7.62x63mm powerhouse (.30-06). It is a frontline weapon, which was superior to the German Mauser and Japanese Arisaka (and allied British Enfield). The other rifles were bolt action, highly reliable, but could not sustain a high rate of fire. The Garand will kick you like a mule, with its steel buttplate. I shot a Garand in our CPM matches out to 500 yards with ease.

An old WWII vet told me an interesting story about Garands in battle in the pacific. The Garand uses an 8 round spring steel clip. The ammo came in boxes that were already in the clips, ready to go. You just shove in a clip and let the bolt go and its ready to fire. When the last round is fired, the spring steel clip flies out the top of the rifle and hits the ground with a distintive 'shing' sound. A sound very different than the spent shells hitting the ground (the clips were normally not retrieved).

He said that the Japanese would wait until they heard that particular sound before bringing on their fire, or charging, or whatever, because they knew the Americans were reloading at that point (or at least someone was reloading). So some of the US GI's would keep a few spent clips and then toss them in the air to create the sound when they hit the ground. Then, of course, tricking the Japanese to think they needed to reload....

Interesting story....so the noise that the Garand makes on the last round is when the clip hits the ground? I always thought it was when the clip was ejected from the gun.

Me too.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: BlueWeasel

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
What is the differance between these two rifles besides how they load, rate of fire, and their magazine, is the garand more accurate than the carbine and the carbine have a higher rate of fire? also, do they take differant types of ammo?

No comparison is possible, they served concurrently, for different purposes. I have shot both, own both. My IBM built carbine was meant to serve 'backline' forces as a more accurate 'pistol'. In fact, it shoots a pistol round. The .30 carbine round has been used in pistols since the time of WWII.

The Garand, on the other hand, is a 7.62x63mm powerhouse (.30-06). It is a frontline weapon, which was superior to the German Mauser and Japanese Arisaka (and allied British Enfield). The other rifles were bolt action, highly reliable, but could not sustain a high rate of fire. The Garand will kick you like a mule, with its steel buttplate. I shot a Garand in our CPM matches out to 500 yards with ease.

An old WWII vet told me an interesting story about Garands in battle in the pacific. The Garand uses an 8 round spring steel clip. The ammo came in boxes that were already in the clips, ready to go. You just shove in a clip and let the bolt go and its ready to fire. When the last round is fired, the spring steel clip flies out the top of the rifle and hits the ground with a distintive 'shing' sound. A sound very different than the spent shells hitting the ground (the clips were normally not retrieved).

He said that the Japanese would wait until they heard that particular sound before bringing on their fire, or charging, or whatever, because they knew the Americans were reloading at that point (or at least someone was reloading). So some of the US GI's would keep a few spent clips and then toss them in the air to create the sound when they hit the ground. Then, of course, tricking the Japanese to think they needed to reload....

Interesting story....so the noise that the Garand makes on the last round is when the clip hits the ground? I always thought it was when the clip was ejected from the gun.

Me too.

It is when the En Blok clip is ejected., not when it hits the ground.
But the ruse uses a En Blok hitting the ground.
EDIT: Or a memberor two of the squad would empty his weapon, allowing the spring action to occur naturally and the remainder would have full weapons waiting for them to pop their little pointy heads up.

 

[Brutuskend]

On the subject of stripper clips.

I remember using a stripper clip at some time in the past, though I don't remember where or when or what weapon I was firing. Does anyone know if they had stripper clips for the M14? If it wasn't that rifle maybe it was my buddies British 303?

 

[Horus]

Rounds usually come on stripper clips. Hell, 5.56NATO rounds, when boxed, come on stripper clips. But normally they are not inserted into the rifle.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Brutuskend
On the subject of stripper clips.

I remember using a stripper clip at some time in the past, though I don't remember where or when or what weapon I was firing. Does anyone know if they had stripper clips for the M14? If it wasn't that rifle maybe it was my buddies British 303?

Yes, M14s have stripper clips and stripper clip guides for the mags.

 

[Brutuskend]

That's what I thought.

Sucks getting old.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Horus
Rounds usually come on stripper clips. Hell, 5.56NATO rounds, when boxed, come on stripper clips. But normally they are not inserted into the rifle.

You're right. It's the EN Blok clip and I was posting prior to coffee intake.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Yeah, mostly what was said above. The carbine was issued to cooks, tank crews, etc. where a full size battle rifle wasn't needed. It was woefully underpowered, especially in the Pacific where there was a lot of foliage.

There was a "Tanker Garand" that was put through trials, but never made it into production, basically just a short Garand meant for tank crews. You'll see them at gun shows sometimes, but they are just homemade hackjobs, the real deal never made it to production.

.30 carbine on the left with a 15 round mag (standard issue, there are 20s, 25s, 30,s and 40s) and a 30-06 on the right with an en-bloc clip.

Pic 1

IBM M1 Carbine

The M1 Carbine I have was made by IBM, the magazine in the first pic was made by General Motors.

M1 Garand

Have several Garands, that's the only one that's cleaned up at the moment, the rest are still sitting in cosmoline

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Horus
Rounds usually come on stripper clips. Hell, 5.56NATO rounds, when boxed, come on stripper clips. But normally they are not inserted into the rifle.

I have sliced my thumb many times loading a M-16 mag.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJonesHave several Garands, that's the only one that's cleaned up at the moment, the rest are still sitting in cosmoline

Buddy... pal... thinking of selling any of those?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJonesHave several Garands, that's the only one that's cleaned up at the moment, the rest are still sitting in cosmoline

Buddy... pal... thinking of selling any of those?

Negatory ace, all CMP rifles

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: Mookow

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJonesHave several Garands, that's the only one that's cleaned up at the moment, the rest are still sitting in cosmoline

Buddy... pal... thinking of selling any of those?

Negatory ace, all CMP rifles

Aww, come on. I'm in your sig! Thats gotta count for something...

On a serious note, how much did they cost you, going through the CMP?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Brought to you by the US Government

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Brought to you by the US Government

So which did you pick out?

EDIT: if you were to get one just for usability, with collectability aspects a distant second in consideration, which would you pick?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Have a service HRA, service SA, Danish SA with VAR and soon a service WIN. So just need an IHC to round things out.

The best value is easily the Danish SA with VAR barrel. Price is impossible to beat anywhere as far as bang for the buck. The VARs are super accurate. The Dane lend lease brought back some great rifles. Mine didn't have any apparent Danish marks. It had the "sticker" inside showing where it zeroed (how many clicks for windage/elevation) and where to place it at the different yard marks. The serial number puts it it being made in 1942, so it's an early one. Very cool.

If you don't want a Dane, the service Winchester will have the best "value" down the road, more collectible, and only $75 more. There isn't a reason to not get a Dane though, especially if you are shooting it.

 

[K1052]

FYI: I have heard that CMP is now waving the marksmanship participation requirement if you have your C&R license.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: K1052
FYI: I have heard that CMP is now waving the marksmanship participation requirement if you have your C&R license.

Where you hear that? That would defeat the purpose of the CMP program. It's not for collectors, it's used to promote citizen marksmanship.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: K1052
FYI: I have heard that CMP is now waving the marksmanship participation requirement if you have your C&R license.

Where you hear that? That would defeat the purpose of the CMP program. It's not for collectors, it's used to promote citizen marksmanship.

I saw it over on gunboards.com forums as I recall. I tried to search for it there but their search function keeps crapping out on me.

Supposedly, they were not supposed to announce the change for a little while but someone let it slip. Several other people had the same reaction as you to the change.

I might take advantage myself. I think I would like to get a rack grade as a shooter. I already have a very nice H&R arms that is in such good condition I feel almost feel guilty shooting it.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Have a service HRA, service SA, Danish SA with VAR and soon a service WIN. So just need an IHC to round things out.

The best value is easily the Danish SA with VAR barrel. Price is impossible to beat anywhere as far as bang for the buck. The VARs are super accurate. The Dane lend lease brought back some great rifles. Mine didn't have any apparent Danish marks. It had the "sticker" inside showing where it zeroed (how many clicks for windage/elevation) and where to place it at the different yard marks. The serial number puts it it being made in 1942, so it's an early one. Very cool.

If you don't want a Dane, the service Winchester will have the best "value" down the road, more collectible, and only $75 more. There isn't a reason to not get a Dane though, especially if you are shooting it.

Maybe this summer I'll make an order. Does it speed it up any if you go to Camp Perry to pick one up? If I showed up with all the documentation required, could I walk out the same day with a rifle? Shipping a rifle 45-90 "work days" after recieving the order form is quite a while to wait.