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YACT: Turbochargers & Superchargers

E

EyeMNathan

Banned
Alright so I know how turbos and supers work.

My question is, how do they interact when you combine them?

I'm guessing most people here don't have a supercharged AND turbocharged engine, but I'm sure there are at least a few people who know way more than me about engines.
 
Used in tandem, it'd have the same problems as a twin turbo - except less laggy. Used in sequence, a-la BMW's two-stage turbo thing, it could nearly eliminate it.
 
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Great input, keep it coming. </sarcasm>
Click to expand...

if you knew how they worked you would understand that it is completely useless

1. your engine can only take so much boost before failing

2. the more you boost the harder it is to get more

#2 is like

its like you want a person to move

you can either push them or have them run

so if you push them while they run they should go by 2x as fast right?

wrong
----------
also
a big enough turbo or supercharger is good enough to bring your engine to the point of failure
 
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Great input, keep it coming. </sarcasm>
Click to expand...

ok.

1. heat. too much compression if you could get it to work. 30:1 compression ratio would blow up the engine.

2. sheer mechanics of getting it to work.

3. which device gets the air first? deal with the turbo lag in the beginning?

4. the second compressor would have to spin much faster than the first in order to compress the fast moving air. a lot faster. most likely a geared supercharger the exhaust may not be able to power a turbo. gearing a supercharger would put even more strain on the engine belt.

5. a single larger supercharer or multiple turbos would be much more efficient.

6. a lot more fuel would be needed to get power generating even more heat. who knows how strong the block would have to be.

7. if you could achieve the setup, it owuld most likely have to be rebuilt every run like a top fuel dragster.

8. cost.

theres probably a lot more but i am not a mechanical engineer so go figure.

i wouldnt doubt that it could be done...it would just be so unrelable and difficult and expensive and pointless.

if you have the money to burn, go for it and post pics.

 
Originally posted by: jurzdevil
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Great input, keep it coming. </sarcasm>
Click to expand...

ok.

1. heat. too much compression if you could get it to work. 30:1 compression ratio would blow up the engine.

2. sheer mechanics of getting it to work.

3. which device gets the air first? deal with the turbo lag in the beginning?

4. the second compressor would have to spin much faster than the first in order to compress the fast moving air. a lot faster. most likely a geared supercharger the exhaust may not be able to power a turbo. gearing a supercharger would put even more strain on the engine belt.

5. a single larger supercharer or multiple turbos would be much more efficient.

6. a lot more fuel would be needed to get power generating even more heat. who knows how strong the block would have to be.

7. if you could achieve the setup, it owuld most likely have to be rebuilt every run like a top fuel dragster.

8. cost.

theres probably a lot more but i am not a mechanical engineer so go figure.

i wouldnt doubt that it could be done...it would just be so unrelable and difficult and expensive and pointless.

if you have the money to burn, go for it and post pics.

6.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by: Howard
People have installed twin-charging kits before... Let me see if I can dig up a link.
Click to expand...

I was just looking at something like that. Turbo->Intercooler->Super->Intercooler->Intake
 
Originally posted by: jurzdevil
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Great input, keep it coming. </sarcasm>
Click to expand...

ok.

1. heat. too much compression if you could get it to work. 30:1 compression ratio would blow up the engine.
Howard: Twin-charging doesn't necessitate ridiculously high amounts of boost.
2. sheer mechanics of getting it to work.
Howard: It's been done before, but I agree - it's more trouble than it's generally worth.
3. which device gets the air first? deal with the turbo lag in the beginning?
Howard: I believe the supercharger gets the air first and then the air is diverted to the turbo when it's up to speed. I'd have to think there are different configurations.
4. the second compressor would have to spin much faster than the first in order to compress the fast moving air. a lot faster. most likely a geared supercharger the exhaust may not be able to power a turbo. gearing a supercharger would put even more strain on the engine belt.
Howard: I don't understand what you're trying to say.
5. a single larger supercharer or multiple turbos would be much more efficient.
Howard: A single turbo would generally be more efficient than either of those, but if you're looking into twin-charging, efficiency is probably not your first priority.
6. a lot more fuel would be needed to get power generating even more heat. who knows how strong the block would have to be.
Howard: Lot more fuel? Why?
7. if you could achieve the setup, it owuld most likely have to be rebuilt every run like a top fuel dragster.
Howard: Why?
8. cost.
Howard: Fair enough.
Click to expand...

 
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Originally posted by: Howard
People have installed twin-charging kits before... Let me see if I can dig up a link.
Click to expand...

I was just looking at something like that. Turbo->Intercooler->Super->Intercooler->Intake
Click to expand...
There is no sense in allowing the supercharger to run after the turbo has spooled up. If you compare crank-driven superchargers to exhaust-driven superchargers (turbochargers), the exhaust-driven supercharger always wins IF you disregard the turbo lag.
 
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0203scc_uscc6/

Twincharging is a tricky proposition at best... in the page above you'll see an example of the possiblities of a twincharge setup in a small displacement MR2. However, it's very hard to make real use of it on a larger motor for significant horsepower.

You'll probably end up with electrically-assisted turbochargers do a much better job than any twincharger setup with the similar advantages. Superchargers and turbochargers work pretty darn well on their own already thanks to better aerodynamics research and materials technology.
 
its definately doable, i've read about a vw that has this same dual charges, the s/c would help spool up the turbo charger.
 
Use the belt driven blower to drive a vortex tube and run the cold side through your charge cooler. Probably not the most efficient or clean thing for an auto engine but really cooling the charge down and realizing 25+ psi MAP with no timing retard or detonation sounds good. On paper anyway. There is only so much room under that hood - even on a firebird. haha
 
Some military diesel engines are turbo and supercharged; for example the HMMT fuel tanker I used to drive with a huge Detroit Diesel.
 
Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
Alright so I know how turbos and supers work.

My question is, how do they interact when you combine them?

I'm guessing most people here don't have a supercharged AND turbocharged engine, but I'm sure there are at least a few people who know way more than me about engines.
Click to expand...

I dont think you know how they work. If you did, you wouldnt have asked such a ridiculous question.


 
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