YACT: Toyota Matrix XR-AWD vs. '02 CR-V vs. Subaru Outback Sport

[vi edit]

Yup, I apologize, it's "Yet another car thread", if you don't want to read it, please carry on

Anywhoo, here's what I'm looking at. A 3 year lease @ 15,000 miles on an AWD 5 door compact/pseudo compact vechicle.

I'm doing a lease because it's for a business and also because this poor car will have the crap beat out of engine/transmission wise and I really wouldn't want to keep it any longer than that.

Requirements:
- AWD or 4WD
- 5 door hatch/liftgate/ect
- decent gas milage < 20 in town, <25 on the highway
- good resale to help out on the lease payments
- automatic transmission
- ABS

Here's what I'm looking at so far -
'03 Matrix XR-AWD

Pros:
- Very well loaded when I option it out with "popular package 2"
- Excellent gas milage
- Very comfortable for all passengers
- Very unique options (tie downs, flip down front passenger seat, 110v outlet in dash, ect)
- Pretty well priced (~20k with the options that I want)
- Toyota reliability

Cons:
- WEAK WEAK WEAK engine
- Offers a decent amount of space, but still fairly small
- Dealers won't deal on them much at all
- New model, may have teething issues

'02 CR-V

Pros:
- Huge amount of storage in back without needing to drop seats
- Very comfortable back seats (for a vechicle in this class)
- Respectable amount of power (once again for a vechicle in this class)
- EXCELLENT residual value after 36 months which GREATLY helps lease price
- Honda reliability
- Even fully decked out and coming in at nearly 3k more than the Matrix, it's monthly lease payment is about the same as the cheaper priced Toyota

Cons:
- Need to spend nearly 3 grand more to get ABS (Go from LX to EX model DAMN YOU HONDA!!!!!)
- New model, may have some teething issues
- Dealers not too willing to deal

'02 Outback Sport
Pros:
- Cheapest of the bunch with the best amount of options
- I love the looks of them
- Has the best AWD system of the bunch
- Most power out of the bunch
- Best gas milage

Cons:
- Probably won't *quite* as reliable as the other two, but still will be quite respectable
- Useless back seat
- Smallest amount of space in back end
- Weakest resale out of the bunch

If you were buying a vehicle in this class, is there anything else you would look at? Is the Mazda Tribute an option? I know the tribute's resale is leap years better than it's twin the Escape, but it still pales to Honda/Toyota.

Anyone have any personal testimonies to any of these vehicles?

Thanks!

 

[Thegonagle]

Subarus are wonderfully reliable, right up there with Toyota, so get that idea out of your head. I'd investigate a Legacy wagon (not the Outback, too much $$) too. It's going to have a lot more usable space than the Imprezza.

Of your three choices, I'd go for the CR-V, but then I don't need ABS, so I'd rather not pay for it. Yes, Hondas lease better than just about every other brand out there (excluding heavily subsidized lease specials that other manufacturers often employ).

 

[vi edit]

I need to get out and test drive them all. Right now, just going by paper specs, the CR-V is the clear choice IMHO.

As for the Legacy, unless Subaru has redone steering wheel height adjustment and changed the seating angle, there isn't any way that I can comfortably get my knees under the wheel. When they redesigned the Impreza lineup, they made the room under the steering wheel a lot better than it used to be. If the Legacy hasn't got that redesign, it's a no go

Garfang, any reason why Honda doesn't offer 16" tires, even as an option, on the CR-V??? Even the little 'ole Matrix rides on 16's. the CR-V just looks goofy on those little tires.

 

[N8Magic]

I don't know if you are going for style points, but the Matrix is FUGLY in person. I would replace that with the Vibe, but it's just personal preference.

Regarding the Outback, have you driven a vehicle with a boxer (flat) engine before? If so, be ready to be surprised. They pull fairly well, but I found the engine to be really rough and noisy, to the point where I asked the dealer if the car was misfiring.

As for the '02 CRV, I haven't drove one, so I can't really comment, but if it is anything like the old one, it will be a solid little vehicle, even if it is pretty uninspiring.

My choice would probably be the Subaru, if you can live with a pretty raunchy (but reliable) engine.

 

[BigSmooth]

The CR-V would be my choice. As you state, the residual values are a big plus. And since this is a Honda, I doubt "teething" will be much of a problem. Additionally, ABS is not that important to me and the extra room would be very nice.

Disclaimer: I have not driven any of these 3 vehicles, and of course test-driving is a key factor in making car decisions. But on paper, I like the CR-V.

 

[vi edit]

Style points really aren't that important to me 75% of the time the vehicle will be driven it'll be pitch black out anyway. Even so, I sort of like the looks of it.

I looked into the Vibe, but the way people are talking over at Edmunds, the Vibe is going to come in costing more than the Matrix. I don't really understand it, and I don't know what extra's will be thrown in, but that's what I heard. The numbers I've seen thrown around are upwards of $2,000 per trim model. That's a pretty big hike. And I know that regardless of what's under the skin, the fact that it's got a pontiac badge on it is going to make for some pretty icky resale which will affect the residual and ultimately my monthly payments.

As for the Subaru, I'd like to try out the Forrester, but it's just a little bit out of my price range, and the "L" series is a little too stripped for my likings. I'll definitely look into them though.

 

[N8Magic]

<< I looked into the Vibe, but the way people are talking over at Edmunds, the Vibe is going to come in costing more than the Matrix. >>



MSRP, yes... the sticker is more for the Vibe than for the Matrix. BUT, GM dealers will negotiate, and you can likely drag that price down to the Matrix level. Just walk in to the Pontiac dealer with a quote on a similar Matrix, and i'm certain that they will match it on a Vibe.

Toyota dealers are notorious for not budging on pricing. As a matter of fact, they are moving to a "no-haggle" policy a la Saturn up here in Canada. Besides, every Toyota dealer i've ever been to have been a bunch of a-holes anyways. Their cars are rock solid, but I would NEVER, EVER buy a car from a Toyota dealer.

 

[Perknose]

You may not like one because it's not quite as "syl-eee" as the Imprezza, but, might I recommend looking at the Subaru Forester? It's boxier shape gives it more usable room and utility than the Imprezza, and the car mags always seem to come away surprisingly impressed when they road test one. Also, the tiny little styling tweaks for the newest model have helped it out looks wise, IMHO.

Also, Garfang is right about the relaibility of Subarus. They're right up there with the best. But N8Magic is also right about the lack of NVH refinement with Subaru's boxer. It may be different now, but they also used to lag a bit in fuel economy, and my (perhaps a little dated) impression is that ALL Subarus could use more power. The Legacy Outback is just overpriced, IMHO.

The Matrix has the most sex appeal, and traditional Toyota quality should be there, even if it is a first year design.

Still, while the styling is bland and uninspiring, I think that the CR-V is the best all around choice here -- again, notwithstanding it's "first year" status.



Edit: Oops, didn't see that you were already considering the Forester.

 

[vi edit]

Perk, idealistically, I'd like to do a lease on a year old demo or LIGHTLY used "S" Trim Forrester. The lightly used part would help drop the price down to just where I'd need it to be. I don't really want to go more than a year or less old, as I'd like to be under the BtoB warranty for as long as I could. Subaru has a 5yr/60k warranty on the drivetrain and engine, so that's not an issue.

Now, realistically, I don't know if I can find the elusive, pampered, '02 Forrester "S" with only 5k miles on it

 

[Thegonagle]

Honda doesn't offer 16 inch wheels as an option because there are essentially no factory options on any Honda, only trim levels and transmissions. See the MSRP pricing on the Honda web site, and you're seeing exactly how they can be ordered from the factory. AFAIK, there are no exceptions.

The individual dealerships handle sales and installation of all "options," so they might be able to cut you a slight deal on some 16" wheels, but it's probably not worth it, since you (or they) will still be stuck with the 15 inch wheels and tires that nobody needs.

I think the Legacy was redesigned for 2000 (not positive), so if you tried an older one, the new model may be different.

 

[Vadatajs]

My 1993 impreza is smooth and pretty quiet. It idles at around 450-500rpm, and there is very little vibration. The older engines were rougher, but mine is fine.

 

[Thegonagle]

About Subaru, I should mention that the flat 4 is a naturally balanced configuration, so there is very little vibration, even at idle. My '88 GL 4WD wagon (yes, they used to have 4WD with a lever and a synchronized low range) is loud and underpowered, but the engine very smooth. It's a very well put together car, and everything still works in the interior, including the air conditioning.

 

[N8Magic]

<< About Subaru, I should mention that the flat 4 is a naturally balanced configuration, so there is very little vibration, even at idle. My '88 GL 4WD wagon (yes, they used to have 4WD with a lever and a synchronized low range) is loud and underpowered, but the engine very smooth. It's a very well put together car, and everything still works in the interior, including the air conditioning. >>



Well, I was talking about the '02 WRX and the '02 TS Wagon. I found both to be quite rough. Your mileage may vary, I guess i'm just picky?

 

[Kenji4861]

Subaru Outback Sport is totally a family car while the Matrix can be both. When they announced matrix they said it's targetted towards young people that just want space with style. Subaru is known to make great cars. In Japan, Subaru Impreza Wagon is one of the top selling wagons.

Just from looks, I would say go with Matrix out of your choice.

Why not the Subaru Impreza Wagon?

 

[freebee]

A subaru forester owner here...if you buy a subaru (or considering one) you should really head on over to edmunds town hall where there is a very active subaru crew discussion board with multiple topics.

As far as the boxer engine, the wrx uses a different engine than the forester. The forester has a non-turbocharged 2.5l sohc flat 4. Its dead silent with no vibration at idle. Watch the rpm, or sometimes you'll engage the starter while the car is already running.

Subaru foresters typically have very high resale values, more so because of high demand and fairly limited production.

The auto trans is integrated with the AWD system and is one of the finest in the world.

Gas mileage is 22 city, 26 highway for auto.

Subaru foresters are standard with abs, awd, and power everything. The L is actually my preference because of the plastic cladding on the side that doesn't scratch or dent.

My only caution is in the northeast the forester is a fairly hot product and the dealers know it. Subie dealers are not know for their customer service skills. But i suppose that is true of toyota and honda as well.

 

[StageLeft]

Consumer reports is now rating Subarus as more reliable than toyota if I remember correctly. I'd get the Subaru. They are a nicer car than the matrix. Subaru knows its AWD and is a beast in the winter!

 

[Thegonagle]

My '88 Subaru is a beast in the winter too. I've got the old fashioned part time 4WD on mine, with a lever, low-range, and no center diff. I love that I can take off and actually fishtail around corners. It's so fun. Unfortunately for me, I'm giving away the old Subaru to a friend for $25 because I don't want to insure or maintain it anymore.

That thing is a brute though, and I've got no hesitation recommending any Subaru to anyone.

 

[vi edit]

I'm leaning twords the subie forester myself. I took a used '99 out for a spin yesterday and it was surprisingly "peppy". I about gave myself whiplash when I first pull hit the gas. I wasn't expecting it to leap forward like that heehee.

It's sort of a dud at passing at highway speeds, but that's not a huge deal as 90% of my driving will be @ 40 MPH or lower on city streets.

I'm still interested in the new CR-V's, but the honda dealers are a bunch of damn Nazi's. Anally retentive when it comes to test drives, and they flat out told me they wouldn't deal on the car before we even started talking numbers.

Not overy impressed with that.

 

[punkrawket]

of those two ...... Matrix