Ok, here's my 2 cents - from somebody who runs a fleet shop that used to do brakes on at least a dozen Expeditions a day.
If you want to do pads, fine. If you need to take the front rotors off for any reason you may be in trouble. Now, most of the Expeditions we did were a couple of years old - I don't think we've done any 01's lately, and they may have solved their problems.
The problem is the rotors sieze to the hub. Any Ford dealer will tell you that there is no puller or special tool they use to get them off. What they use, and we use also, is a BFH. That's right, the biggest fvcking sledgehammer we can find and take full swings - sometimes like 20 hits before it breaks loose. Then of course you throw the rotor away. I was concerned at first about damaging the wheel hub bearing assembly but there's nothing you can do about it and that's what the Ford people say too. As a matter of fact, most of the Ford dealers have "on the car brake lathes" now so they don't have to take the rotors off to machine them. But, eventually they all need to be replaced.
That said, most of the manufacturers now state that unless you have deep grooves or some kind of pulsation, that you DON'T machine the rotors. A little bit of rust or scoring is acceptable - so don't turn or replace them unless absolutely necessary. The theory that rotors should be turned every time the pads are replaced is an absolute fallacy.
If you want to do pads, fine. If you need to take the front rotors off for any reason you may be in trouble. Now, most of the Expeditions we did were a couple of years old - I don't think we've done any 01's lately, and they may have solved their problems.
The problem is the rotors sieze to the hub. Any Ford dealer will tell you that there is no puller or special tool they use to get them off. What they use, and we use also, is a BFH. That's right, the biggest fvcking sledgehammer we can find and take full swings - sometimes like 20 hits before it breaks loose. Then of course you throw the rotor away. I was concerned at first about damaging the wheel hub bearing assembly but there's nothing you can do about it and that's what the Ford people say too. As a matter of fact, most of the Ford dealers have "on the car brake lathes" now so they don't have to take the rotors off to machine them. But, eventually they all need to be replaced.
That said, most of the manufacturers now state that unless you have deep grooves or some kind of pulsation, that you DON'T machine the rotors. A little bit of rust or scoring is acceptable - so don't turn or replace them unless absolutely necessary. The theory that rotors should be turned every time the pads are replaced is an absolute fallacy.
As a matter of fact, some cars are starting to come out with fiberoptic wiring harnesses. The new Saab 9-3 has 44 (!) microprocessors inside of it. Unless Techs constantly go to school to keep up on this stuff they get left behind real fast.
Also, those code readers only point you in the right direction. If it shows an O2 sensor out of range, it may not be the sensor - it could be a problem with the wiring going to the sensor, it could be a problem with the PCM itself or some other problem manifesting itself as a sensor problem.
The other problem is - a lot of the new cars require "proprietary scanners", or scanners that only the dealers have. The OBD-II scanners you can get down at the parts store don't cut it anymore. If you're working in an indepandent shop your SOL these days. Our shop just bought a GM Tech II scanner for $5K and are looking at a Chrysler DRB-III for over $6K. Well, that covers only two of the multitude of makes we work on - it's ridiculous.
The latest Motor Age magazine has a list of manufacturter tech websites for information. One wants $2500 a year IIRC for access to it.
Yes, CAN cars are in the showroom now and all new cars are supposed to be CAN enabled by 2008. Auto Zones code readers won't work with that and even Snap-Ons Red Brick won't be able to unless they upgrade the software and connectors. I do like the new graphing scanner that they came out with, allows to see a waveform with the values for the sensors and actuators. MODIS looks promising as it combines a scanner and a DSO in one unit similar to OTCs Genisys. If you want to flash an EEEProm you need to have at least a laptop and the right programs to do it.
Yes, CAN cars are in the showroom now and all new cars are supposed to be CAN enabled by 2008. Auto Zones code readers won't work with that and even Snap-Ons Red Brick won't be able to unless they upgrade the software and connectors. I do like the new graphing scanner that they came out with, allows to see a waveform with the values for the sensors and actuators. MODIS looks promising as it combines a scanner and a DSO in one unit similar to OTCs Genisys. If you want to flash an EEEProm you need to have at least a laptop and the right programs to do it.
Yeah, we'll see how the CAN standard fairs I guess. Well, actually that's only an interface - nothing specific about what kind of data would be exchanged. I guess that will be called an OBD-III standard or something. Everybody had high hopes for OBD-II, but since it was only for emissions diagnosis the manufacturers decided they would leave the other 98% of their information out. I'm afraid the same type of thing will happen again, and the independants will be up the creek as usual. If the automakers get their way, only dealers will be fixing cars.
It's so damned expensive today to fix cars - nobody realizes. We have 15K worth of scanners, 10K worth of diagnostic (Mitchell 1) and shop management/estimating (ADP ShopLink) software, tools, A/C recyclers, coolant recyclers etc. And most of that stuff needs to be updated every few years. Not to mention the training.
It's so damned expensive today to fix cars - nobody realizes. We have 15K worth of scanners, 10K worth of diagnostic (Mitchell 1) and shop management/estimating (ADP ShopLink) software, tools, A/C recyclers, coolant recyclers etc. And most of that stuff needs to be updated every few years. Not to mention the training.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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I am not sure if the above is directed at me...but although I use AutoZone for their tool rental (speciality tools) I have my own ODBII reader that tells me what each sensor is doing, what pending codes are, and what tripped codes are in real time. It wasn't expensive, but it did cost a couple hundred bucks.
I did not say all mechanics, but I can guarantee you a high percentage could not get into college and took that road. Saying a couple month/couple year program compares to a 4 year college degree is absurd. Most mechanics also don't keep updating their skills either. Some do, many don't...there are good mechanics, but many more bad ones.
The same about the manuals vs real world knowledge affects mechanics the same way, if they have never worked on my car they are going on what they think is the right way.
A big example of this was this guys Eagle Summit...died at a red light...the problems he described to me and quick internet lookup (something which all mechanics should do) showed these have bad computers, the exact same things were happening to his car. He doubted me and took it to a mechanic and was charged about $2k for a new distributor, wires, plugs, and a couple ignition parts. 1 week later the same problem. I got him the ECU and he had me redo his front brakes at the same time....I did it for under $75 + the ECU (about $125 I think he paid for it) with new rotors...the mechanic wanted about $1k.
I have done a lot of work on cars, trucks and houses.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
Tell me about that...a lot of car's rotors will sieze to the hub (rust, heat, crap=nature's 2000 psi epoxy). All my cars get serviced regularly so I never encountered a seized hub until the above mentioned Eagle Summit...some rotors have a M12 or so screw hole to 'pop' the rotor...I pulled one of the guys bolts off another part of his car as, the 10lb sledge was not working and I worried hitting it any harder would bend something else....the M12 bolt and a couple hits did the trick.
I used some anti-sieze behind the rotor as the new ones did not have the factory bolt hole.
Machining the rotors to me has always been a "Let's use up about 50k of life in the rotor so the next brake job can be 'better' for us
". I have actually argued with the brake guy who's telling someone I know they need their rotors turned/replaced when the reason I sent them down to begin with was I noticed the pads low, but the rotors checked out and their was no pulsation. They try to pull the we cannot guarantee them to be safe then crap.Also for many cars Brembo makes OEM rotors now, which in the ones I have seen were only about $20-30 and nice quality.
Sorry your buddy got gaffed. Just like in any other profession, there are people out there who don't know their stuff, or aren't entirely honest.
It's great that you fixed his car - great that you were right about the ECU, because if you weren't you would have been stuck with it, as electrical items generally aren't returnable. FYI, late model cars are more complicated than you can know, and your OBD-II scanner is out of date.
As for the generalization about mechanics - I'm sorry you feel that way. It's too bad that most people will need us low brow, dishonest types to fix their cars for years to come (well, until they make cars smart enough to fix themselves).
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
I don't know how you know my OBD-II reader is out of date....I can update it to read whatever ODB-II specs there are...I am able to see real time on even my parents 2000/2001 cars.
Like all this talk of the dealerships with $5k computers and stuff...the average Snap-On wrench is about 2-5x the average Craftsman...do any work differently? no. do they have the same warranty? yes. will sears drive a new tool out to your shop? no, and Snap on only sometimes (big shop = better service)...
Most of the big machines dealers are using can be bought much cheaper for home use...they are usually covered with same day replacement policies and the like a "DIY'er" doesn't need...you pay alot for service contracts, but in a business downtime is even more expensive.
Now many of these same machines can be bought at auctions/equipment sales much cheaper ($500-$2k for alot of $10k+things). It's all about being educated and just because someone were to drop $10k on a complete auto diagnostic computer, it doesn't mean they are going to be able to get it to work or even know what to do when it reports the problems.
Also all you need is the device for the car you are working on...the professional machines are alot more money since they have to have the complete spectrum of OBD-I, II and whatever propreitary things are out there and all those extras have extra licensing fees and software fees on top of the hardware. My reader does not have the extended codes as my ODB-II in my car doesn't use them...if I had a Corvette I would need them and have to pay the $200+ fee for the software to read them...the cable I have would still work.
It's alot like the PC market: You have windows at $100-$500 per license and LINUX at $0. You have a brand new IBM/Dell/Alienware PC at $2000-3000 or a build it yourself with ebay, AT For Sale, etc for $1k....they both do the same thing in reality but the costs of ownership is alot different. Now let's say your DIY PC starts smoking one day....you have no one to call usually, but if your IBM or Dell does, and you have a warranty, one phone call can sometimes have you a new machine the next day.
Also those complete Diagnostic machines usually just give you the convenience of a one stop shop...reading the codes is more than likely always going to be easy....whether someone has to develop a custom cable or not. Now just seeing what codes are there does not mean you know exactly what to change. My throttle body cracked once, but the codes were idle - out of range, TPS failure, MAP failure, IAC failure, and I think a couple more. Replacing all the sensors would be a waste and perhaps still not fix it. So you would have to break out the multimeter and go through the tests in the Factory manual and see what the screw up is. In my case all sensors were perfect....however I knew it had to be mechanical then so I upbolted the throttle body and then it fell in two parts.
A mechanic would have been able to read all the sensors more quickly of course, but I still was able to get the job done just as accurately. No matter how complicated a vehicle gets a code reader and multimeter will probably allow you to solve almost any problem you are going to have. Then it comes down to if you are going to have the proper tool, and that can be expensive.
I am assuming the 'mechanic' whether shadetree or pro knows about electrical systems and what not to touch. Some of today's cars have circuits that can kill...this was not true in yesteryear and a lot of old-timers end up in the hospital because of it. "I don't need no stinking manual to fix my headlights" was probably said sometime before those ER trips
Like all this talk of the dealerships with $5k computers and stuff...the average Snap-On wrench is about 2-5x the average Craftsman...do any work differently? no. do they have the same warranty? yes. will sears drive a new tool out to your shop? no, and Snap on only sometimes (big shop = better service)...
Most of the big machines dealers are using can be bought much cheaper for home use...they are usually covered with same day replacement policies and the like a "DIY'er" doesn't need...you pay alot for service contracts, but in a business downtime is even more expensive.
Now many of these same machines can be bought at auctions/equipment sales much cheaper ($500-$2k for alot of $10k+things). It's all about being educated and just because someone were to drop $10k on a complete auto diagnostic computer, it doesn't mean they are going to be able to get it to work or even know what to do when it reports the problems.
Also all you need is the device for the car you are working on...the professional machines are alot more money since they have to have the complete spectrum of OBD-I, II and whatever propreitary things are out there and all those extras have extra licensing fees and software fees on top of the hardware. My reader does not have the extended codes as my ODB-II in my car doesn't use them...if I had a Corvette I would need them and have to pay the $200+ fee for the software to read them...the cable I have would still work.
It's alot like the PC market: You have windows at $100-$500 per license and LINUX at $0. You have a brand new IBM/Dell/Alienware PC at $2000-3000 or a build it yourself with ebay, AT For Sale, etc for $1k....they both do the same thing in reality but the costs of ownership is alot different. Now let's say your DIY PC starts smoking one day....you have no one to call usually, but if your IBM or Dell does, and you have a warranty, one phone call can sometimes have you a new machine the next day.
Also those complete Diagnostic machines usually just give you the convenience of a one stop shop...reading the codes is more than likely always going to be easy....whether someone has to develop a custom cable or not. Now just seeing what codes are there does not mean you know exactly what to change. My throttle body cracked once, but the codes were idle - out of range, TPS failure, MAP failure, IAC failure, and I think a couple more. Replacing all the sensors would be a waste and perhaps still not fix it. So you would have to break out the multimeter and go through the tests in the Factory manual and see what the screw up is. In my case all sensors were perfect....however I knew it had to be mechanical then so I upbolted the throttle body and then it fell in two parts.
A mechanic would have been able to read all the sensors more quickly of course, but I still was able to get the job done just as accurately. No matter how complicated a vehicle gets a code reader and multimeter will probably allow you to solve almost any problem you are going to have. Then it comes down to if you are going to have the proper tool, and that can be expensive.
I am assuming the 'mechanic' whether shadetree or pro knows about electrical systems and what not to touch. Some of today's cars have circuits that can kill...this was not true in yesteryear and a lot of old-timers end up in the hospital because of it. "I don't need no stinking manual to fix my headlights" was probably said sometime before those ER trips
Yes, but OBD-II info won't get you very far these days. You need proprietary scanners - sometimes made only for the dealers themselves.
Snap-on or Matco wrenches are designed better and can sometimes fit into places a Craftsman won't (they have a slimmer design and better head angle). Also, they have more "specialty tools". My box is filled with tools Sears doesn't even make. And, I've had Craftsman wrenches break in half on me - and I wasn't using a breaker bar on them either.
Oh really? If you can point me to a less expensive version of a DRB-III (for Chrysler products), I'll give you the difference. If you want to flash PCMs on Chrysler products thats the only way to do it - I don't care what kind of laptop, cable or plug you have. The same goes for dozens of other manufacturers as well.
Possibly, but you're forgetting the thousands of dollars per year in software updates for these scanners.
What? I though we weren't educated enough to know how to use this stuff? Let me tell you something, when I buy a piece of diagnostic equipment for my shop I make damned sure everybody is educated enough to use it. It needs to be cost effective you know?
There's no scanner out there that will handle all the different makes. My Snap-On OBD-II scanner handles all ODB-II codes and thats it. So it sits in the cabinet most of the time. It's the $4500 GM Tech II for GMs, and the $1500 AST for VW/Audis that get used every day. This equipment accesses systems my Snap-On scanner doesn't even know is there.
For example, did you know that if you get a dead battery in a late model VW theres a good chance you'll need to have it towed to a dealer to get it running again (even though you've replaced the battery)? The powertrain module needs to be "recoded" with a special scanner. OBD-II doesn't apply.
Another example. If you want to bleed the brakes on a late model GM truck you need a Tech II to energize the solenoids in the ABS pump or you will NEVER get a good pedal. Theres no other way to do it.
Yeah well, the way I look at it is you shouldn't be building yourself a computer if you don't know what you're doing. I build my own, and know how to fix it - I wouldn't recommend the same thing to my mother inlaw.
Can I hire you? Because if you have all that diagnostic info in your head then I can throw out my $4000 worth of Mitchell 1 software and I won't have to worry about paying for the $1500 update I need every year so I can have access to the factory diagnostic info and procedures that AREN'T AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC YET.
I
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