YACT: Question about alcohol in engines

[LordRaiden]

Just curious what the mentality of burning straight alcohol in engines was. I know they seem to use them in slingshot dragsters and anything that requires a lot of torque and power over a short period of time, or mixed with a very high premium gas or run straight to enhance long haul driving.

I've seen them use alcohol in a variety of forms from Indy to NTPA and others, but what is it specifically that makes alcohol the choice fuel? Isn't there better fuels for racing than Alcohol? Just curious.

 

[her209]

Yes.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

 

[xEDIT409]

So can I pour budlight into random places in my car to make it run better?

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: xEDIT409
So can I pour budlight into random places in my car to make it run better?

Alcohol engines...not water...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

 

[LordRaiden]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

So if that's true, then why bother using it?

 

[PowerMacG5]

Originally posted by: pyonir

Originally posted by: xEDIT409 So can I pour budlight into random places in my car to make it run better?

Alcohol engines...not water...

LOL. Alcohol is a more complete burn than traditional hydrocarbon (octane, or any other) fuels. Also, for the reasons given by joshsquall..

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: LordRaiden
So if that's true, then why bother using it?

Alcohol is still a lot better than pump gas. And I forgot to mention that nitro-methane is also VERY expensive -- not just the fuel but the engines.
Racing has established classes, and strict rules which govern each class (and often each race). Alcohol-fueled cars just happen to make up some classes in certain forms of racing.

 

[xEDIT409]

So yeah, I just came back from pouring Budlight in my gas tank, the washer fluid container, and the oil holder thingy...

so then, I drove my car, and at first it was like rumbling and stuff, and I thought it was the bass at first, but then i realized that the radio was off... so i was like, "hmm... thats weird, what could be causing that."


Anywho, getting back on track, I came to a stop at a intersection, and a supra pulled up next to me, and I rolled down my windows, and I was like, "What the retail on one of those things"

and he's like, "more than you can afford, one IPO here we go"

So then I told myself to smoke him... (I dunno why I did this, considering I never speak to myself)

So then the light turned green, and he was in the lead at first, but then i press the gas all the way down, and then my engine started to smoke... but I won in the end anyways...

best race ever... thanks to budlight

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: LordRaiden

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

So if that's true, then why bother using it?

Alcohol doesen't burn hotter than gasoline.

 

[Eli]

I swear, I'm going to build my own large still and start producing my own alcohol for fuel(and maybe a bit of drinking ) use.

You can make it for like a dollar a gallon as long as you can get free fermentables.

 

[Rallispec]

Originally posted by: xEDIT409
So yeah, I just came back from pouring Budlight in my gas tank, the washer fluid container, and the oil holder thingy...

so then, I drove my car, and at first it was like rumbling and stuff, and I thought it was the bass at first, but then i realized that the radio was off... so i was like, "hmm... thats weird, what could be causing that."


Anywho, getting back on track, I came to a stop at a intersection, and a supra pulled up next to me, and I rolled down my windows, and I was like, "What the retail on one of those things"

and he's like, "more than you can afford, one IPO here we go"

So then I told myself to smoke him... (I dunno why I did this, considering I never speak to myself)

So then the light turned green, and he was in the lead at first, but then i press the gas all the way down, and then my engine started to smoke... but I won in the end anyways...

best race ever... thanks to budlight

haha.


Beer, the cause of, and solution to all of lifes problems

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Can I put 99% isopropyl in my Nissan?

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

Actually engines running on alcohol are cooler than those running on gasoline, all else equal.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Can I put 99% isopropyl in my Nissan?

No.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

Sorry, alcohol does not burn hotter. Alcohol is much harder to ignite, requires nearly twice as much fuel flow, and actually cools the engine.
It does have less detonation, since it's harder to ignite.....so you can run ultra-high compression ratios, therefore you get more horsepower.
It is corrosive, though.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

Nitromethane is basically alcohol with nitro added. And you can most certainly see the flames....just watch any Fuel dragster or funny car and you'll see flames coming out the pipes.
Straight alcohol (methanol) is what you can't see burning.
For a bracket race car, alcohol is considered to be more consistent than gas.

Here's some good info about racing alcohol

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

Sorry, alcohol does not burn hotter. Alcohol is much harder to ignite, requires nearly twice as much fuel flow, and actually cools the engine.
It does have less detonation, since it's harder to ignite.....so you can run ultra-high compression ratios, therefore you get more horsepower.
It is corrosive, though.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

Nitromethane is basically alcohol with nitro added. And you can most certainly see the flames....just watch any Fuel dragster or funny car and you'll see flames coming out the pipes.
Straight alcohol (methanol) is what you can't see burning.
For a bracket race car, alcohol is considered to be more consistent than gas.

Here's some good info about racing alcohol

I thought nitromethane was a separate hydrocarbon. Let me check.

Right, nitromethane is CH3NO2.

 

[trmiv]

We run alcohol in our racing engine (355 ci SBC). It makes more horsepower than gas, but it can be a pain. It's corrosive on the carb, and it's kind of hard to tune with. One huge benefit for us though is that the egine runs MUCH cooler on alcohol. Last season we ran gas, and our engine would be consistently around 225-235 degree during a race. Now it rarely runs over 200.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

Sorry, alcohol does not burn hotter. Alcohol is much harder to ignite, requires nearly twice as much fuel flow, and actually cools the engine.
It does have less detonation, since it's harder to ignite.....so you can run ultra-high compression ratios, therefore you get more horsepower.
It is corrosive, though.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

Nitromethane is basically alcohol with nitro added. And you can most certainly see the flames....just watch any Fuel dragster or funny car and you'll see flames coming out the pipes.
Straight alcohol (methanol) is what you can't see burning.
For a bracket race car, alcohol is considered to be more consistent than gas.

Here's some good info about racing alcohol

I thought nitromethane was a separate hydrocarbon. Let me check.

Right, nitromethane is CH3NO2.

Correct, but you don't run it straight in a drag car. They mix it with methanol.
I guess I should clarify my original post....I was speaking in drag racing terms, which is what nitromethane is usually associated with.

 

[JC]

Let's clarify something here: there's methanol, and there's ethanol. Methanol is corrosive, ethanol is not. It does eat up rubber hoses, though.

Pluses: runs cooler, high octane, burns cleanly, can be made from renewable sources.

Negatives: A/F ratio much lower with alcohol (use more of it, but you can optimize compression, etc. to regain some of the loss of fuel efficiency). Also, alcohol has a lower latent heat of vaporization than gasoline (harder to vaporize, i.e. hard starting with carb, not so bad with fuel injection).


I did a research paper on alcohol fuel senior year. I can dig it up if ya want


JC

 

[Pacfanweb]

JC, that's right. They like to tout methanol's cheaper price, but fail to mention that you burn twice as much of it, so it isn't really that much cheaper.

I go to the dragstrip with my gas engine and I only have two 5 gallon jugs of racing gas.

My friend with an alcohol engine has EIGHT 5 gallon jugs of alcohol, and uses several each trip if he goes many rounds.

I don't even use a full 5 gallon jug if I go to the finals.

 

[JC]

My friend with an alcohol engine has EIGHT 5 gallon jugs of alcohol, and uses several each trip if he goes many rounds.

:Q

 

[trmiv]

Yep, you use a lot more. We paid $5.00 a gallon last year for racing gas, but only $2.80 a gallon now for methanol. But, we over tiwce as much, so it ends up costing us more. Our 355 uses about 17 gallons of methanol in a 30 lap race on a 1/4 mile oval track.

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Prevents pre-ignition, keeps the engine cleaner, reduces pollution, performs better in cold starts.

But at the same time it's more corrosive, burns hotter, and has less detonation.

And yes, there are better fuels than alcohol for racing. The best is nitro-methane or "Top" fuel. Its drawbacks though are that it is extremely explosive and flammable, and extremely dangerous because when it burns its flames are invisible.

nitro is not extremely explosive or flammable. You can put a match out in it. It only becomes combustable under high pressure.