YACT: Cops shoot innocent ex-marine in AZ (huffington)

[KeithP]

These no-knock warrants need to be stopped. This is the shit that happens.

According to the article, the police didn't have a no-knock warrant.

-KeithP

 

[RampantAndroid]

Are you an idiot? You do NOT ever pull a gun, loaded, safetied, unsafetied, rubber duck, etc, on the cops. If you do, expect to get taken down. The cops entered under a legal search warrant, its irrelevant that they didn't find anything, they entered legally. The ex-marine pointed an assault rifle at them, which the police have no way of knowing whether or not it was loaded or safetied, they saw a deadly open pointed at them and responded accordingly.

Except the charge is that they didn;t announce who they were. they just broke in. Gave him no chance to disarm himself.

You're the one who needs to sit down and THINK here.

 

[boomhower]

It wasn't a no-knock warrant so get off that horse, the argument on those is irrelevant here. Uniformed SWAT, market cars, and announced presence. They entered the house and were greeted with the business end of an AR. We don't and won't ever know what was going through the homeowners mind but the officers did what any SWAT team would do, or police officer for that matter. When someone is pointing a gun at you you don't ask them to put it down, it's pasted that point. You don't point a gun at a cop, they can and will defend themselves.

 

[waggy]

while he police (and they have lied and changed the story in this a few times) say it was not a no-knock witness's in the area say they didn't hear sirens, knocking or yelling.

even that that is one thing. the other is not allowing medical attention FOR OVER AN HOUR. that is plain murder.

 

[Triumph]

I'm torn. If they indeed announce themselves, he shouldn't have had the gun at the ready. Cops see gun, they shoot you. On the other hand, 1. the war on marijuana needs to stop, 2. the over use of SWAT teams acting like jack boot thugs needs to stop, 3. the over use of no-knock warrants (even if this wasn't one) needs to stop. They say that the no-knock is necessary because doing otherwise sometimes puts the officer's life in jeopardy. Meanwhile I've read stories time and time again where the homeowner's life is put in jeopardy by these sort of commando operations that frighten homeowner's to death (literally sometimes, at the hands of the cops). I guess the lives of the cops are worth more than the lives of the citizens they're sworn to protect (and yes, they are sworn to protect the lives of citizens who turn out to be criminals).

 

[DrPizza]

"They lied"
I don't think so. You're one of 6 guys. You hear a gunshot. You don't say, "hey Bob, Joe, Steve, Frank, Harold, was that one of you guys shooting?" You're looking at the business end of a rifle pointed at you. You fire back. It's easy to make a mistake over who shot first; and fortunately, the police announced the error. They didn't announce "we lied" - they announced "we discovered that his gun had the safety on and hadn't been fired."

As far as having the safety on. What kind of retard thinks that the police shouldn't have shot because the other guy's safety was on? You can't tell at a distance in the amount of time it takes to make the decision whether you're going to shoot the guy pointing a weapon at you.

If the police were hell-bent on covering this up, they would have taken the safety off on his gun and fired a round from it. They didn't.

This was a very unfortunate situation for everyone involved, especially the victim who was shot and his family.


A lot of the Huffington post article and other articles are rather speculative. Just because someone is a former Marine doesn't mean they can't be drug dealers as well. We don't know why the warrant was issued in the first place.


Also, it's a shame that medical care wasn't allowed in for an hour. Nonetheless, the odds of being SHOT SIXTY TIMES and living more than a couple seconds, are virtually nonexistent.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

I'm torn. If they indeed announce themselves, he shouldn't have had the gun at the ready.

Wishful thinking.

The sequence of events is usually so short that there is no opportunity to get rid of the gun (and if the gun is within six feet of you then you are probably going down). So when they announce POLICE <wait 1 second> <bust down door>, you will not have time to react.

 

[TheVrolok]

Isn't preventing/purposefully delaying emergency medical care a felony?

 

[Zebo]

OMG! Marijuana??!?! They should have just nuked the city. It's the only way to be sure.

lol

The war on drugs has militarized our police forces who are so geared to "taking out" the suspect it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy not to mention leads to zero cooperation.

 

[Pulsar]

Are you an idiot? You do NOT ever pull a gun, loaded, safetied, unsafetied, rubber duck, etc, on the cops. If you do, expect to get taken down. The cops entered under a legal search warrant, its irrelevant that they didn't find anything, they entered legally. The ex-marine pointed an assault rifle at them, which the police have no way of knowing whether or not it was loaded or safetied, they saw a deadly open pointed at them and responded accordingly.

Ok, that's it. Twice now you've willfully misrepresented the facts in order to try to support your fallacious case. Don't look now, but your bias is showing pretty severely. Not even going to apologize or acknowledge that your initial post was one hundred percent wrong, as pointed out by a ton of people?

He did not 'pull a gun on the cops'. He had the gun at the ready when the came in the house, seemingly un-announced. He apparently had knowledge of his wife's home-invasion in the past. He did not undo the safety, did not open fire, and did not charge the police.

"I saw this guy pointing me at the window. So, I got scared. And, I got like, ‘Please don't shoot, I have a baby.' I put my baby (down). (And I) put bag in window. And, I yell ‘Jose! Jose! Wake up!'" she explained.

Jose had just come home from working at the mine. Vanessa said he had fallen asleep two hours before, only to wake up to chaos in his house. It was Pima County SWAT executing a narcotics conspiracy search warrant, but according to her, neither she nor her husband knew it was the authorities until it was too late.

"You're saying only (they) yelled SWAT after the shootout?" asked KGUN9 reporter Joel Waldman.

"Oh, yes! Yes," said Guerena.

Vanessa said Jose grabbed a gun to protect himself from what he thought were home invaders. "

If you're going to continue to lie and make random shit up, perhaps you should leave. You're certainly not doing yourself any favors.

 

[JSt0rm]

and the supreme court just gave these fucks even MORE ways to get into your home without a warrant. Pathetic.

 

[Jeeebus]

The police opened fire, releasing more than 70 rounds in about 7 seconds, at least 60 of which struck Guerena.

After ushering out his wife and son, the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.

The story is scandalous enough without that unnecessary sensationalism at the end there. If this guy was really hit by 60 bullets, I'm not entirely sure it was the bleeding to death that did him in.

 

[MarkXIX]

The reality is the cops were in a "reflex fire" situation. The adrenaline was going, they saw a gun, they reacted.

From the other side, one can also understand that they were conducting a drug raid on this Marine's apartment where his wife and child were. He could just as easily assume that it was a drug related entry into his domicile by some "bad guys" and he was simply defending his family.

I can also put on the table that given that he never switched from safe to semi on that weapon means that he hesitated. You're trained to switch from safe to semi as you transition the weapon up toward the target. Either his training failed, or he was second guessing his target at the end of the hallway. Either way, he was defending his family and property just as he is legally permitted to do. This will be a hairy case when it goes to court, but I bet the police pay the family of the fallen.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The story is scandalous enough without that unnecessary sensationalism at the end there. If this guy was really hit by 60 bullets, I'm not entirely sure it was the bleeding to death that did him in.

I really don't see the sensationalism. For starters, what do you think bullets do? Second, they refused to let medical care in. Yes, he was probably dead very quickly, but its not sensationalist to state facts. Maybe law enforcement should try to not fuck things up so stupendously and they won't look like assholes. Plus, there's the whole part where they tried to claim he shot, doesn't make refusing medical personnel look very good.

I find this story pretty infuriating. Fucking SWAT for marijuana? 70 rounds fired on someone not shooting at you and then claiming they shot? Preventing medical care? Fuck all of that.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

This will be a hairy case when it goes to court, but I bet the police pay the family of the fallen.

I doubt it, but even if they do it will not change the policies and practices of the law enforcement agencies. It will just be considered the cost of doing business.

 

[SolMiester]

I just cant believe the police went in shooting over some farking dope, of which they found none....So whatever way you want to swing it, we get an innocent man killed by police when he thought he was defending his wife, kids and home.....60 bullets? FFS...disgraceful

 

[Eli]

Another win for the fucking war on drugs.

 

[Drako]

Another win for the fucking war on drugs.

Yup.

I was hoping President Obama would put a stop to this shit.

 

[BoomerD]

It sounds like the locals aren't buying the "official story." (or are at least demanding more information about it)

http://azstarnet.com/search/?l=50&sd=desc&s=start_time&f=html&q=Jose+Guerena

 

[MarkXIX]

I just cant believe the police went in shooting over some farking dope, of which they found none....So whatever way you want to swing it, we get an innocent man killed by police when he thought he was defending his wife, kids and home.....60 bullets? FFS...disgraceful

You know, that's another point. Excessive force is definitely possible here based on the scene description. I'm not clear how they can lay down 70 rounds on one target in a hallway unless they were completely incompetent as a SWAT team.

By my count, depending on the weapon system and magazine capacity, there were no less than three separate weapons fired at this guy, all three of which would have almost completely emptied their magazines. This assumes they were using 30 round magazines.

Assuming these guys assaulted with MP5s with 30 round magazines and a rate of fire of about 700 rounds per minute, they would have fired for approximately 5 seconds each, near simultaneously, on full auto, to put down 70 total rounds. A properly trained marksman and point man should be able to fire less than 5 rounds to eliminate the threat.

 

[jlee]

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14643812...t-narcotics-related-material-that-can-be-drug

O'Connor: "As many of you might know, Tucson is somewhat notorious for home invasions. Sometimes home invasions look a lot like a narcotics search warrant. That's what the key to these things is. We want to make sure we re not looking like any other home invaders. The way that we keep that from happening is that we will have a lot police vehicles there, with their lights and their sirens on. In this case, the SWAT team was serving, because it was a narcotics high risk type of a search warrant, so we had our large armored vehicle there with the markings on it. It also has lights and sirens, it was going. So we do everything we can to portray the image that we are law enforcement, we are not home invaders. Because these people are involved in narcotics conspiracy cases, they are used to seeing other people get home invaded, so we want to do everything we can to keep that from happening."

Waldman: "There were some reports out there that this was I guess what some law enforcement would call a no-knock entry. Did you announce yourselves as law enforcement officers?"

O'Connor: "Absolutely. Those are very specific cases when it's a no-knock warrant. This was not a no-knock warrant. This case was, we came in very high profile, lights and sirens. We go to the door, we pound on the door. We wait approximately 15 seconds. If no one answers the door, we breach the door with a heavy tool and open the door. As soon as we opened the door, we were confronted with an individual that was in a crouched position, pointing at them with an AR 15 military assault rifle, and saying -- I'm gonna quote what he said -- 'I've got something for you.' Then they engaged this individual who was pointing the weapon at them."

 

[Zebo]

The reality is the cops were in a "reflex fire" situation. The adrenaline was going, they saw a gun, they reacted

This is the problem. I support cops 100&#37; even sponsor an FOP golf tournament every year but this militarization get people killed more often than need.

 

[MarkXIX]

This is the problem. I support cops 100% even sponsor an FOP golf tournament every year but this militarization get people killed more often than need.

I agree. They go in charged up, armed to the teeth, and ready to shoot anything that even begins to represent a threat.

I tell my Soldiers all the time to remember that we have the best body armor and medical capabilities in the world. I tell them this to ensure that they understand that they can hesitate just long enough to know whether their target is worth killing or not. I'd rather live with the bruised ribs, lacerations, etc., from catching a round than the pain of knowing I killed an unarmed, man, woman, or child.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Sad news, chalk 1 up for teh WoD. Don't worry, your memory will be forgotten by next week after the next big score for the WoD!

 

[Joseph F]

Yet another fucking reason I don't trust the police.