YACT: Buying a porsche 944?

[halik]

Hey,
I'm looking to get a second fun car on the budget and I've always wanted a 944. Any thoughts?

 

[vi edit]

***Paging Zenmervolt***

Zenmervolt, please report to the Porsche thread.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
***Paging Zenmervolt***

Zenmervolt, please report to the Porsche thread.

His ears are probably on fire about now.

 

[deerslayer]

I have a thought....I wish I could afford a fun car, let alone a second one.

 

[slatr]

I want one too.

I have never heard anything bad about their reliability, not problematic like RX7s ect..

The worst thing I heard was that changing the cluth out required a lot more labor than it would on most other cars.

 

[manowar821]

944 can sell for about 5k-7k, they're not expensive.

I may get one.

 

[Zenmervolt]

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/944_buyers_guide/944_buyers_guide.htm

http://www.clarks-garage.com/purchase.htm

Two of the best resources for the 944, though the prices listed in the first are horribly out-dated for maintenance work.

Beware timing belt intervals. It's 3 years/30,000 miles. If you cannot verify that the belts have been changed within that interval, budget $600-$1,200 (depending on local shop rates and how thorough you want to be) to change the belts, rollers, and water pump. The water pump is run off the back side of the timing belt and if the water pump starts to go, it usually takes out the timing belt with it. (It's an interference engine, so if the timing belt goes, say hello to $2,000 worth of valve/head repairs.) The clutch job on a 944 has a shop time of 16 hours for the non-turbo cars (20-23 hours for the turbos depending on the year) and can run over $3,000. Those are the two high-dollar repair items.

Budget at least $2,000 above the purchase price for repairs/refreshing to the car immediately after purchase and at least $1,000/year for ongoing maintenance. It is NOT worth it to buy a cheaper example and fix it up, you will NOT come out ahead financially. Cheaper to just buy a more expensive car with service records, etc and have it be right from the beginning.

They are cheap to buy, but are definitely Porsches as far as maintenance expense goes. If you think this will be an inexpensive way to have a weekend car, think again.

ZV

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: manowar821
944 can sell for about 5k-7k, they're not expensive.

I may get one.

I'm shooting for under 5K, they're really cheap out here on the east coast.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: manowar821
944 can sell for about 5k-7k, they're not expensive.

I may get one.

I'm shooting for under 5K, they're really cheap out here on the east coast.

Sweet.

I drive a Mazda mx-3 because it looks kind of like a curvy 944.

Also, I was poor when I got it.

 

[slatr]

They are great looking cars. One of my favorite designs of all time.

Some 911 owners will barely acknowledge them.. hatchback and all

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/944_buyers_guide/944_buyers_guide.htm

http://www.clarks-garage.com/purchase.htm

Two of the best resources for the 944, though the prices listed in the first are horribly out-dated for maintenance work.

Beware timing belt intervals. It's 3 years/30,000 miles. If you cannot verify that the belts have been changed within that interval, budget $600-$1,200 (depending on local shop rates and how thorough you want to be) to change the belts, rollers, and water pump. The water pump is run off the back side of the timing belt and if the water pump starts to go, it usually takes out the timing belt with it. (It's an interference engine, so if the timing belt goes, say hello to $2,000 worth of valve/head repairs.) The clutch job on a 944 has a shop time of 16 hours for the non-turbo cars (20-23 hours for the turbos depending on the year) and can run over $3,000. Those are the two high-dollar repair items.

Budget at least $2,000 above the purchase price for repairs/refreshing to the car immediately after purchase and at least $1,000/year for ongoing maintenance. It is NOT worth it to buy a cheaper example and fix it up, you will NOT come out ahead financially. Cheaper to just buy a more expensive car with service records, etc and have it be right from the beginning.

They are cheap to buy, but are definitely Porsches as far as maintenance expense goes. If you think this will be an inexpensive way to have a weekend car, think again.

ZV

I've owned several german cars at this point (currently have a benz); they're all expensive if you have the work done at a shop. DYI and the part cost is comparable, just need to be handy.

There's no way an '86 porsche needs more special tools than my last audi. I've bought crap for that car that's out of this world (16mm 12 point torx bit with a hole in the middle ... WTF?)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: halik
I'm shooting for under 5K, they're really cheap out here on the east coast.

No, they're not. It may be cheap to get in to, but they're not cheap to keep. A $5,000 944 will not have maintenance records, which means it's a $6,500 944 as you will need to do a full "front of engine service" (timing belt, balance shaft belt, new tensioners, new rollers, new water pump, and assorted seals and gaskets). It will also likely have other mechanical issues that need to be dealt with at some point.

I say again, budget $2,000 above the purchase price to have a shop that specialises in Porsches go through the car and fix what needs fixing. Budget at least another $1,000/year in repairs (not including oil/gas/insurance/etc.).

The basic engines are reliable and there are many people with 200,000+ miles on their long-blocks, but it's absolutely vital on these cars to follow maintenance to the letter.

ZV

 

[Colt45]

Yeah, Audi loves the triple-square stuff. Can't say ive seen a hole in the middle... like triple square but also like security torx? doesn't make much sense...


But yeah, defnitely.. old german car, you have to be either

A. rich
B. handy with a spanner

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: halik
I've owned several german cars at this point (currently have a benz); they're all expensive if you have the work done at a shop. DYI and the part cost is comparable, just need to be handy.

There's no way an '86 porsche needs more special tools than my last audi. I've bought crap for that car that's out of this work (16mm 12 point torx bit with a hole in the middle ... WTF?)

Let's put it this way, the procedure for changing the clutch in the Haynes manual for the 944 begins with "after removing the exhaust, transaxle, and rear engine mounts from the car ..."

It's not that this cannot be done by a home mechanic, but it's a huge amount of labor. I do a fair bit of work myself, but you will not catch me doing a clutch or timing belt on my 951. I'm not interested in having the car up in the air for two weeks while I take an hour here there that I have free to work on it. Timing belt also requires a $600 tool (available only from Porsche) to set the tension (there are alternatives available, but I do not personally trust them).

My mechanic drives an old Audi 5000 as well as his 944. He's mentioned several times that he would much rather work on the Audi than on the 944. The 944 was designed to be put together on an assembly line and is not as mechanic-friendly as other cars.

And bear in mind that this is me presenting the problems and not the good things. You already are enamoured with the car, I'm here to give you the darker side of the ownership experience.

ZV

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: manowar821
944 can sell for about 5k-7k, they're not expensive.

I may get one.

Depends on model year and type...good luck finding an 88 Turbo S or 89 Turbo for that.

Check out Rennlist.org

I was looking for a 88/89 Turbo with less than 40k on the clock...the ones I was finding here in florida needed some interior work and the interiors parts are pretty pricey. Mechanicals are not that bad. The main thing that adds to the cost of labor is all the extra covers and stuff you need to remove..but if you do your own work it's just time.

They are excellent cars.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

My mechanic drives an old Audi 5000 as well as his 944. He's mentioned several times that he would much rather work on the Audi than on the 944.

ZV

quattro or not?

I've got a 5000 quattro, I'm pretty good with it, but changing the clutch takes forever.



Actually, the previous owner took it to some retard shop that put a wrong seal on the crank, leaked like a sieve. so i had to go back over a $3k job to replace a $10 seal. Awesome.


There's also an old MB 300 4matic in the family. Now that is a pain in the ass. the front diff is in the oilpan...

 

[Safeway]

Isn't the Porsche 944 the "Poor mans' Porsche?"

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Safeway
Isn't the Porsche 944 the "Poor mans' Porsche?"

The 924 was.

The 944 has all of the wonderful ancillary Porsche costs. The 944 Turbo, for example, was a $42,000 car in 1987. That's equivalent to a $75,000 car today. The base 944 debuted at $18,450 in 1983, equivalent to a $37,000 car today. Definitely not "cheap" cars.

They can be had for little money, but the $3,000 to $5,000 cars are typically in need of a decent amount of reconditioning.

R&T had an excellent article about the 944 series a year or so ago: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=1453

There's one quote that is _incredibly_ true from my experience in the 944 world. "Although the price of service and repair for 944s may not be as daunting as that for, say, 911s of recent vintage, it's still relatively pricey ? enough that owners may defer anything that isn't critical to keeping the cars on the road. Meanwhile, the cars descend into heapdom."

There are a lot of indifferently-maintained 944s out there because people don't want to do what needs to be done to keep the cars in good condition.

ZV

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Colt45
Yeah, Audi loves the triple-square stuff. Can't say ive seen a hole in the middle... like triple square but also like security torx? doesn't make much sense...


But yeah, defnitely.. old german car, you have to be either

A. rich
B. handy with a spanner

Yeah half axle bolts on the transmission used the regular triple square stuff, but the transmission fill plug IIRC needs the 12 point security tox bolt that's huge. I've swapped a transmission on a B5 A4, so the special tool list was neverending. end result

And Zen, to replace the cluch on most cars you'll need to remove the exhaust, loosen up the engine mounts and get other stuff in the way (rear driveshaft and front half axles in case of my audi)... and you're two steps away from pulling the tranny out of the car. That's not really Porsche thing, many cars need that (especially anythign awd)

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Safeway
Isn't the Porsche 944 the "Poor mans' Porsche?"

wow...wear your idiot flag proudly.

The 944 was scrapped due to it beating the 911 at 1/2 the cost.

The late 80's 944 is a monster on the track. It won't win many dragraces, but that's for the pabst drinkers.

 

[ponyo]

I love the 944 and considered picking one up last year but I got scared away by the cost of the maintenance. My cousin who works as a Lexus master mechanic told me he wouldn't help me with the car. That told me all I needed to know, and I bought the S2000 instead.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Naustica
I love the 944 and considered picking one up last year but I got scared away by the cost of the maintenance. My cousin who works as a Lexus master mechanic told me he wouldn't help me with the car. That told me all I needed to know, and I bought the S2000 instead.

Your SN says it all. Why ask a 'LEXUS' guy about a porsche?

He will probably start blowing out supra and SC400/300 nonsense. Not that they are terrible cars, just very different from a Porsche.

I will probably have 944/968 in my stable one day if my 98 240sx SE doesn't work out.

 

[Slew Foot]

My uncle has one of those. I cant remember when he got it or how much work it's needed since then, but he's been driving it every day for about 20 years now.

 

[ponyo]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Naustica
I love the 944 and considered picking one up last year but I got scared away by the cost of the maintenance. My cousin who works as a Lexus master mechanic told me he wouldn't help me with the car. That told me all I needed to know, and I bought the S2000 instead.

Your SN says it all. Why ask a 'LEXUS' guy about a porsche?

He will probably start blowing out supra and SC400/300 nonsense. Not that they are terrible cars, just very different from a Porsche.

I will probably have 944/968 in my stable one day if my 98 240sx SE doesn't work out.

Because he maintenance all my vehicles regardless of brand including my bike. He's good with mechanical stuff. I'm not. If he's not going to service the 944, then I would've had to use a local Porsche shop to do the work. That's expensive. All I have to pay my cousin is a six pack of beer, pizza, and cost of the part.

 

[alkemyst]

I am hoping he isn't doing too much work for you then....I wouldn't be charging family myself for anything, but a 6 pack and pizza would not be a motivator regardless.

Really those looking for a new car vs older car they are going to have to come out of pocket for are two different markets.

To buy a pre 90's 944, you are going to need the cash...not many are financing them, if any.

Personally I like my 1998 240SX SE that I snagged a couple years ago for $8800 with 70k on the clock. I quickly poured my savings over the 944 into it. My only next step is turbo or a swap (SR or RB). Have almost everything else installed.

The car is insanely easy to work on as well.