Xbox 2 - "No hard drive" says CEO of M-Systems Flash Disk Pioneers

[Eug]

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=777124&fid=980

?It?s a cooperation agreement. The potential isn?t clear, but it?s in the billions of dollars. Microsoft has taken the hard disk out of its Xbox. The only thing left will be a CD; that?s all. At some point, when users want to save their e-mail messages, copy music, or anything like that, the only storage they?ll have is what we give them. It?s worth hundreds of millions to the company, spread over a few years, and we?ll be the main supplier for it; and I hope the sole supplier.

?Meanwhile, development is intense, and requires expenses, although not major ones. We?ll start supply only in 2005.?

 

[Dug]

Microsoft will drop them like a bad habbit if he keeps making statements like that in public.

I'm sure someone will figure out how to hardwire a hd to one, or run a hd through the ethernet port.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: Dug
Microsoft will drop them like a bad habbit if he keeps making statements like that in public.

I'm sure someone will figure out how to hardwire a hd to one, or run a hd through the ethernet port.

But bad habits are hard to drop...

I agree though. It seems like rather bad karma to blab so much about announced hardware specs.

 

[JBT]

"Bad idea to drop the HDD from the Xbox2 MS..." says JBT of Anandtech forums.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: JBT
"Bad idea to drop the HDD from the Xbox2 MS..." says JBT of Anandtech forums.

Why? It will reduce the heat in the console, and it will reduce the overall physical size. And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

 

[Hyperfocal]

Why? It will reduce the heat in the console, and it will reduce the overall physical size.

No more modding. No linux on the Xbox. :|

 

[JBT]

Why Cause everyone I know who has an xbox uses the HDD for storing tons of crap... Games, save points and other stuff... I hope they atleast have the room for a HDD.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: JBT
Why Cause everyone I know who has an xbox uses the HDD for storing tons of crap... Games, save points and other stuff... I hope they atleast have the room for a HDD.

Errr, I already addressed this issue...

Originally posted by: Eug
And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

Plus, solid state media is more robust than hard drives.

Originally posted by: Hyperfocal
No more modding. No linux on the Xbox. :|

Of course, that would be an advantage for Microsoft. Mind you if it ends up being a standard IDE flash based system you could still install Linux on that. It'd just be (potentially) harder.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Why don't they just stick a 6-in-1 memory reader and use the popular flash memory cards?

BTW, "the only storage they?ll have is what we give them" = open invitation for hacking.

- M4H

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: JBT
Why Cause everyone I know who has an xbox uses the HDD for storing tons of crap... Games, save points and other stuff... I hope they atleast have the room for a HDD.

Errr, I already addressed this issue...

Originally posted by: Eug
And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

Plus, solid state media is more robust than hard drives.

Originally posted by: Hyperfocal
No more modding. No linux on the Xbox. :|

Of course, that would be an advantage for Microsoft. Mind you if it ends up being a standard IDE flash based system you could still install Linux on that. It'd just be (potentially) harder.

We all understand why Microsoft is doing it. The point is that for gamers this is bad news. Especially for us modders. I have all my games loaded onto a 160gb Hd in my Xbox. No fumbling for disks, no load times and no worries about disks getting damaged from wear and tear. For me the HD was one of the big selling points.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: ZimZum
We all understand why Microsoft is doing it. The point is that for gamers this is bad news. Especially for us modders. I have all my games loaded onto a 160gb Hd in my Xbox. No fumbling for disks, no load times and no worries about disks getting damaged from wear and tear. For me the HD was one of the big selling points.

And people like you represent, what, 0.1% of Xbox customers?

 

[Twsmit]

Originally posted by: ZimZum

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: JBT
Why Cause everyone I know who has an xbox uses the HDD for storing tons of crap... Games, save points and other stuff... I hope they atleast have the room for a HDD.

Errr, I already addressed this issue...

Originally posted by: Eug
And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

Plus, solid state media is more robust than hard drives.

Originally posted by: Hyperfocal
No more modding. No linux on the Xbox. :|

Of course, that would be an advantage for Microsoft. Mind you if it ends up being a standard IDE flash based system you could still install Linux on that. It'd just be (potentially) harder.

We all understand why Microsoft is doing it. The point is that for gamers this is bad news. Especially for us modders. I have all my games loaded onto a 160gb Hd in my Xbox. No fumbling for disks, no load times and no worries about disks getting damaged from wear and tear. For me the HD was one of the big selling points.

Your in the ultra small minority. Everything is about 'smaller, better, faster'. Solid state will reduce the size, heat and NOISE from the Xbox. Also you can store quite a few game saves on the memory cards that fit into the controller. I dont imagine that 1-2 gigs running out anytime soon. Modders dont really count in microsofts book, they want to sell software and gettting a sleak, sexy package that will drive more people to the store is what they are looking for. They dont need or want people who put linux on their box, play a few games and turn the system into an entertainment center.

Also the fact that i know many 'non geek' people in RL who are getting mod chips and pirating their games from the web, shows how potentially dangerous to M$ the ability to mod the system is. I know people who got an xbox over chirstmas and havnt bought a game yet........

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Twsmit

Originally posted by: ZimZum

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: JBT
Why Cause everyone I know who has an xbox uses the HDD for storing tons of crap... Games, save points and other stuff... I hope they atleast have the room for a HDD.

Errr, I already addressed this issue...

Originally posted by: Eug
And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

Plus, solid state media is more robust than hard drives.

Originally posted by: Hyperfocal
No more modding. No linux on the Xbox. :|

Of course, that would be an advantage for Microsoft. Mind you if it ends up being a standard IDE flash based system you could still install Linux on that. It'd just be (potentially) harder.

We all understand why Microsoft is doing it. The point is that for gamers this is bad news. Especially for us modders. I have all my games loaded onto a 160gb Hd in my Xbox. No fumbling for disks, no load times and no worries about disks getting damaged from wear and tear. For me the HD was one of the big selling points.

Your in the ultra small minority. Everything is about 'smaller, better, faster'. Solid state will reduce the size, heat and NOISE from the Xbox. Also you can store quite a few game saves on the memory cards that fit into the controller. I dont imagine that 1-2 gigs running out anytime soon. Modders dont really count in microsofts book, they want to sell software and gettting a sleak, sexy package that will drive more people to the store is what they are looking for. They dont need or want people who put linux on their box, play a few games and turn the system into an entertainment center.

Also the fact that i know many 'non geek' people in RL who are getting mod chips and pirating their games from the web, shows how potentially dangerous to M$ the ability to mod the system is. I know people who got an xbox over chirstmas and havnt bought a game yet........

Totally agree. Taking the hard drive out is the best thing MS can do. MOST people doing a hard drive mod are downloading or renting a game at BlockBuster and copy the game. Not good for MS. Also, taking the hard drive out will decrease the size and weight of the new console. It would be AWESOME if they used 1-2GB of flash memory for storage. It is much smaller, weights MUCH less and has a lot less chance of failing. I don't see ONE negative of going this route if MS can get a good deal on flash memory.

 

[Eug]

Cornice sells 2 GB MicroDrives (not flash, but same form factor) for $70 in quantities of 100000.

I wonder what it would cost Microsoft for 2 GB MicroDrives from Hitachi, and what it would cost for 1 GB of flash from M-Systems.

 

[Dug]

It is much smaller, weights MUCH less and has a lot less chance of failing.

But isn't there a limit on the read/writes it can do? I'm sure its high, but compared to a hd it certainly won't last as long.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Dug

It is much smaller, weights MUCH less and has a lot less chance of failing.

But isn't there a limit on the read/writes it can do? I'm sure its high, but compared to a hd it certainly won't last as long.

The hard drive on the XBox is strickly for storing data. It's not like your PC where the OS and games are running from your hard drive.

 

[Eug]

Microsoft refuses to confirm rumors

Xbox Group Product Manager David Hufford said Moran was "talking way over his head." He continued, "Mr. Moran is aimlessly speculating, and we never comment on speculation. We've made no such announcements about future Xbox products and services and we don't intend to for quite a while. Until we do, we suggest people take guesswork for what it is."

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: JBT
"Bad idea to drop the HDD from the Xbox2 MS..." says JBT of Anandtech forums.

Why? It will reduce the heat in the console, and it will reduce the overall physical size. And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

(1) 1GB - 2GB flash media (at least of the CompactFlash and Secure Digital variety) are still rather expensive. You're still looking at street prices of around $200 after rebate for 1GB media. 2GB media is gonna run you $300-400. While I'm sure that the flash memory that MS will use will be of the unremoveable type, high amounts of solid-state flash storage does NOT come cheap.

(2) The flash memory that MS DOES use will no doubt be of a smaller capacity...64MB - 256MB at the max IMHO.

(3) Miniature hard drives (ala Microdrive and the Hitachi units) are notoriously unreliable and more prone to failure than standard 3.5" drives.

 

[jdogg707]

Ya, Microsoft is kicking itself in the butt with not having a hard drive built-in. Isn't that one of the main attractions? Not having to worry about memory? I mean, Sony even saw it as a way to make money and is now selling a hard drive add-on for the PS2. What's going to happen to the ability to load music, game demos/levels through live, and the ability to load textures/levels onto the hard disk for quicker access. It makes since in a money making scenario, but unless they come up with a way to have massive storage for cheap, leaving the hard drive out could negatively effect sales (Not to mention that it really puts a dagger in the ability to be backwards compatible).

 

[CZroe]

I said this as a response to the AT news posting. Not sure if it's been said here yet (No time to read... Yet).

"Umm, I see this entirely differently. It's a flash memory manufacturer trying to intimidate their competitors by making it known that they will be providing high-capacity flash storage that will replace the hard drive. Why else would THEY be the ones to announce this?

Nintendo's investment in the storage for the Nintendo DS has been revealed and now so has Microsoft's."

 

[magomago]

I also think its a bad idea to get rid of the HDD, because storage wise downloading levels with high textures and things of the sort definitely seems to be a huge selling point. I mean MS touted the Xbox's HD like crazy, so much that sony went and made a 40 Gig HDD and its hopefully going to be released soon.

To me, it just seems counterproductive to move the other way...it is two steps forward b/c of the benefits of it, and 4 steps backwards. Storage requirements aren't going to shrink over the long haul- especcially if MS offers downloadable content and such. Now if we were talking 15-20 gigs of Flash MEdia then that would be a different story..(haha, I wonder at the cost)

Who knows though, maybe Sony will announce the same thing

 

[CZroe]

I'm saying that it could be some ginormous cheap flash disk which makes traditional flash memory obsolete. Just like Nintendo's investment has made ROM game cartridges obsolete (No, optical media did not do this... Try adding built-in save ram, an onboard assisting CPU or an camera or tilt sensor IO peripheral through a DVD laser pickup/collector...)

 

[Atlantean]

Screw xbox 2 then I am definately not getting one cause of that bs. Will PS3 have one?
Oh and on a side note are they still gonna follow through with that bs where the xbox 2 is not backwards compatable? Cause if so then I am dropping everything that I have from xbox as soon as I can.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Atlantean
Screw xbox 2 then I am definately not getting one cause of that bs. Will PS3 have one?
Oh and on a side note are they still gonna follow through with that bs where the xbox 2 is not backwards compatable? Cause if so then I am dropping everything that I have from xbox as soon as I can.

What is your reason though for saying "screw them" over flash memory?

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: JBT
"Bad idea to drop the HDD from the Xbox2 MS..." says JBT of Anandtech forums.

Why? It will reduce the heat in the console, and it will reduce the overall physical size. And I suspect they could get say a 1-2 GB flash media based storage system for a reasonable amount of money. (How much storage would you need in the Xbox 2 anyway?) And if it's not integrated into the Xbox 2 (to keep costs down for MS), it could offered as a add-on plug-in card.

(1) 1GB - 2GB flash media (at least of the CompactFlash and Secure Digital variety) are still rather expensive. You're still looking at street prices of around $200 after rebate for 1GB media. 2GB media is gonna run you $300-400. While I'm sure that the flash memory that MS will use will be of the unremoveable type, high amounts of solid-state flash storage does NOT come cheap.

(2) The flash memory that MS DOES use will no doubt be of a smaller capacity...64MB - 256MB at the max IMHO.

(3) Miniature hard drives (ala Microdrive and the Hitachi units) are notoriously unreliable and more prone to failure than standard 3.5" drives.

You're right that flash media is expensive. I do see 256-512 MB as potentially doable in 2005 though. However, 2 GB of solid-state memory is pushing it.

As for the MicroDrive, I don't know where you get that info about reliability. You may be right, but I don't see any statistics that show that it's really true. They may be more prone to failure if you're jostling them around in your luggage, but when was the last time you carried your console in your luggage? For that matter, when was the last time you checked your Dell Dimension desktop at the airport? It should also prove interesting to see what the experience of iPod mini owners is going to be. One of the main accessories for it is an arm band, so people can go jogging with them.

The other option is say a smaller card (or no card) built-in, with the option for add-on cards (which are another source of revenue and profit) for extra memory needs.

IMO, the hard drive in the Xbox, although nice, is superfluous for many. For those who need the extra functionality it provides, should be willing to pay for it as an add-on accessory. One advantage this provides is the ability to take your downloads and saved games with you.