X-Fi versus Digital Out......

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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Okay, I need some advise. (It's a long post, sorry).

I'm still having a difficult time trying to understand PC Audio technology despite the fact I've been purchasing sound cards and audio equipment for the past 10 years (Sound Blaster, Turtle Beach Multisound, Logitech SoundMan Wave, SoundBlaster AWE32, AWE 64, SoundBlaster Live, Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, M-Audio Revolution, SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS). I still have the M-Audio Revo, I think it was a 7.1, not a 5.1 version. Anybody want to buy this?

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a big gamer though I do occasionally like to fire up a few games (non Quake type, mostly arcade type games like car racing and Madden football, etc) and I want a good sound experience while playing these but it doesn't have to be earth shattering.

What I am looking for is a very rich playback from Audio CD's that I rip, .wma songs I download from MusicMatch, and .mp3's that I've already had recorded on my computer. I do not listen to music through headphones so that's a non-isssue. My current speaker configuration is a setup of two M50 Cambridge Soundworks speakers along with their 8" base/amp module. I'm pretty happy with these speakers, not thrilled with the bass module and I have no idea what amp is driving my seperates (the bass module??). The speakers are definately not powered.

What I still feel I've never been able to get a crystal clear answer on is the differences between Digital Out versus anything non digital out. Let's assume for a minute I had an external $400 - $500 receiver from a quality vendor like Denon, Harmon Kardon, etc. I presume the DAC's and the amp inside that receiver are of a higher quality than the DAC's on the sound card and the amp in the little subwoofer unit right? Why wouldn't I buy a cheap $30 Chaintech sound card with Digital Optical out, spend $400 on a Dolby Digital receiver with DAC's and amp's built in, and then run it straight through to the receiver to power all my speakers and sound?

From ALL the various sound card reviews I read, all I see are various posts about signal to noise ratio, total harmonic distortion, blah blah blah. Isn't all of this a complete NON-issue when you are sending your data out digitally?

I understand the benefits like EAX, CMSS-3D, etc that Creative bundles into their chipsets and drivers and thus games. But if I only play certain games occasionally are they REALLY going to make a difference? I have a pretty powerfull computer so I'm not worried about a little bit of CPU useage by the sound if that's necessary. There must be some article or documentation on using digital out and the benefits associated with it.

In regards to this Crystalizer technology, I respect most have said it's somewhat questionable though respect that it appears Creative has done something that is a benefit to the end user. The part that nobody has really talked about though is the encoding quality using Crystalizer? Since I still have a shelf full of about 400 CD's of which many songs still need to be ripped, I would imagine this technology could probably do a pretty good job of ripping VBR .MP3's right from the CD digital source. Anything for me to know that the .mp3's I encode from CD's that I buy are actually just about the highest quality possible is pretty cool.

Anyhow, I hope I'm not rambling too much and that most of you actually understand my question/frustration. Any help will be GREATLY appreciated!

Jon
 

DaveSimmons

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Aug 12, 2001
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From ALL the various sound card reviews I read, all I see are various posts about signal to noise ratio, total harmonic distortion, blah blah blah. Isn't all of this a complete NON-issue when you are sending your data out digitally?
Yes. Sending digital also means you won't pick up any RF hash from the PC. That Chaintech card is a good idea for music.

In regards to this Crystalizer technology, I respect most have said it's somewhat questionable though respect that it appears Creative has done something that is a benefit to the end user. The part that nobody has really talked about though is the encoding quality using Crystalizer? Since I still have a shelf full of about 400 CD's of which many songs still need to be ripped, I would imagine this technology could probably do a pretty good job of ripping VBR .MP3's right from the CD digital source. Anything for me to know that the .mp3's I encode from CD's that I buy are actually just about the highest quality possible is pretty cool.
FIrst, what I read of crystalizer is that it's essentially an automatic EQ, nothing you couldn't do yourself with a real EQ or maybe even the receiver bass & treble knobs.

Second, if you care this much about music audio, use lossless FLAC not MP3. FLAC does not throw away huge chunks of music ("lossy") like MP3 does, it compresses WAV/CDA losslessly like zip does for other files. Space is about 300 MB per CD but 160GB hard drives are dirt cheap.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
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The crystalizer doesn't do anything for ripping music. I'm not sure what the whole "SuperRip" thing is about, as I didn't install mediasource and don't get access to that...but I agree with DaveSimmons: if you're so concerned about audio quality, then you need to start using lossless.

There's nothing wrong with your plan of a $30 soundcard and just using digital output to the receiver.
 

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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Okay... well this is a quote directly from the X-Fi page at soundblaster.com

"SuperRip? allows you to rip your CDs into Xtreme Fidelity quality.
The X-Fi 24-bit Crystalizer and X-Fi CMSS-3D features allow you to "SuperRip" CDs into Xtreme Fidelity quality so you can now enjoy permanently enhanced music instead of low-quality MP3 files!"

That was the part I was referring to in regards to the better ripping. I've never heard of FLAC and I appreciate the info. I'm going to check it out, but do .mp3 players support this FLAC format? What's nice about .mp3 is that not only are the file sizes small, but the format is extremely standard and that gives me a lot of flexability down the road. I guess what I'm looking to achieve would simply be the best .mp3 encoding I could get. I'm pretty happy with the majority of my variable bit and 192bit .mp3 recordings, but if buying this sound card meant I could "super rip" cd's and get an even better result, that would be a definate plus.

In regards to the comment about crystalizer being nothing more than an EQ, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. I think the review over at www.digit-life.com probably did the most in depth analysis on Crystalizer and though his findings were mixed, he certainly didn't po-poo the technology as nother more than an EQ.

What about CPU processing power when using digital out? It sounds to me that if somebody were to buy the X-Fi Elite Pro edition and use the Coax SPDIF out on the back of the breakout box, they would have essentially spent $400 for EAX 5.0 gaming support and bloated software. Isn't that correct? Wouldn't it be true that a $30 Chaintech card would sound identical to the $400 X-Fi Elite Pro when both are using the Coax Dig-Out?

Jon
 

DaveSimmons

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> Wouldn't it be true that a $30 Chaintech card would sound identical to the $400 X-Fi Elite Pro when both are using the Coax Dig-Out?

Yes, for music. No for games since the Creative card will only send 2-channel stereo for games but it will be EAX 5.0 2-channel stereo.

FLAC is an open-source, open standard for audio that is mostly supported on PCs (only a few portable devices) but it is 100% exact CD quality for playback not the "near" CD quality of even 320 kbps MP3.

Since FLAC is lossless (a compressed but exact copy), you can always "transcode" from FLAC to any other format, including any bitrate of MP3, with the exact same quality as if you were ripping from CD.
 

ribbon13

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2005
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http://flac.sourceforge.net/

SuperRip eh? Anything that claims to be able to rip with more fidelity than the original digital medium had sounds like some BS to me. And the "Xtreme" marketing spelling methods just top it off.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
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Originally posted by: ribbon13
http://flac.sourceforge.net/

SuperRip eh? Anything that claims to be able to rip with more fidelity than the original digital medium had sounds like some BS to me. And the "Xtreme" marketing spelling methods just top it off.

Ive been away from GH for a little bit, but Welcome back Ribbon!

Since CDs are stereo, you can go with any card that does bit-perfect digital out (or something like that). I would assume that the DAC on the "good" receivers are better than that of normal sound cards. I don't know how the DACs are on the new creative cards. Something like the Chaintech 25$ card should be sufficient if you use stereo digital out only. If you need multichannel, then the chaintech will not be good enough.

I just rip my cds into .wav files and call it a day. No need for any encoding. a 200GB drive can hold over 200cds in wav format.
 

kravmaga

Senior member
Aug 10, 2005
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I was not aware digital would help with electronic interference. I'm having a huge problem with that using my sennhieser headphones. I might just by an spdif digital receiver in that case.
 

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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But does FLAC contain an ID Tag that stores song/albut/artist information? And do you know off hand if MusicMatch can playback this file type? If so, I'm all over it! :)

Jon
 

DaveSimmons

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Aug 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: jonmcguffin
But does FLAC contain an ID Tag that stores song/albut/artist information? And do you know off hand if MusicMatch can playback this file type? If so, I'm all over it! :)

Jon
Yes to ID3-like tags. No idea on MMJB -- there are "plugins" for several players but I use Foobar2000 which has built-in support.
 

Tiamat

Lifer
Nov 25, 2003
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Originally posted by: kravmaga
I was not aware digital would help with electronic interference. I'm having a huge problem with that using my sennhieser headphones. I might just by an spdif digital receiver in that case.

afaik, digital only helps with cable clutter - unless you have a truly fully digital system.
 

DaveSimmons

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Aug 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tiamat
Originally posted by: kravmaga
I was not aware digital would help with electronic interference. I'm having a huge problem with that using my sennhieser headphones. I might just by an spdif digital receiver in that case.

afaik, digital only helps with cable clutter - unless you have a truly fully digital system.
For analog connections the soundcard can supposedly pick up RFI from the CPU and other noise generators on the motherboard, though I've never encountered this myself.

Back in the TRS-80 days ('80s) there were programs to make music from the RFI of the Z80 processor, generating different notes you'd hear with an AM radio.
 

Accord99

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tiamat
Since CDs are stereo, you can go with any card that does bit-perfect digital out (or something like that). I would assume that the DAC on the "good" receivers are better than that of normal sound cards. I don't know how the DACs are on the new creative cards. Something like the Chaintech 25$ card should be sufficient if you use stereo digital out only. If you need multichannel, then the chaintech will not be good enough.
Even the DACs on the lower model Xi-Fis and A2s are pretty good, they're using Cirrus Logic CS4382 which have excellent specs and have been used on some mid-level HT receivers, like the Marantz SR7300 and the HK 525.

 
Mar 10, 2005
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FLAC (.flac, .flc) is my format of choice, but few mobile devices support it, for now. The older .shn/.shnf is also lossless, but tracks aren't automatically seekable. mp3 is definately the lowest common denominator.

The ADCs and DACs on a soundcard can be of decent quality, however they are still susceptible to RFI. When using analog out, my A2zs had a high pitch hiss that related to video images, mostly white and brights. This was with an AIW 9800 pro and a 6600GTOC. It's not clear if the RFI was radiated through the air, or through the mobo. The hiss is not present on either the digital out nor the Live Drive headphone plug.

If you listen to music, movies or games at any kind of loud level, feeding the sound into a reciever (or for big bucks, monoblock amps) is totally the way to go. The amp sections on any PC sound card, or break out box, are jelly bean size. The amps in real stereo equipment can be as big as a loaf of bread. You most likely wont need all that power(75 Watts+, per channel), but it means the amp's "sweet spot" will be in your listening range.
 

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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And my guess is that if I want to convert normal stereo 2-channel sound (as found on CD's and my ripped .mp3's or what not, I can have the home theater receiver work in Pro-Logic II mode which will simulate a surround sound effect?

Jon
 

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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Now the question is......

I have to flash the Chaintech to get "bit-perfect" digital out. I own a Revo 7.1 PCI audio card with digital out. Do I have to do anything with that to get bit-perfect digital out?
 
Mar 10, 2005
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Please explain to me what "bit perfect" means. Then please explain how this would be superior than a bit that was already decoded and converted without error.
 

jonmcguffin

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Aug 18, 2005
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Okay, well now that I've downloaded and installed Flac 1.1.2, now I find that I have to go find a CD-Ripper software to make wave files first before I can rip directly to the FLAC format. Anybody have any suggestions on what a good, free ripper to use?

Jon
 

DaveSimmons

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Aug 12, 2001
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Exact Audio Copy and CDex are the two most popular. I've used EAC + FLAC to rip about 1,000 CDs.

WavPack isn't a bad choice, AnnihilatorX but as long as you pick an open format like FLAC, APE, or WavPack you can always change your mind later. Lossless means you can always switch to another lossless without quality loss just like you can extract a Zip and then compress it using Rar instead. Right now FLAC has a little better support, and it was even farther ahead when I started using it.
 

coomar

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Apr 4, 2005
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i have a hercules fortissimo 2, if you can find one they're dirt cheap and they come with optical out (coaxial/fiber)