wtf is wrong with this administration

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LuZeR

Senior member
Jul 25, 2000
642
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
If you're not guilty, you have nothing to worry about.


Beat me to it! That is the spirit!

I mean, let's give up all our rights and let god and bush sort em out right? Who cares if you are the one getting screwed, it's only a small percentage of the population. Go with the flow sheeple....

Your turn is cometh...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
126
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Padilla was held for years without any.

The Padilla Ruling Is a Victory for Freedom
by Jacob G. Hornberger, March 2, 2005

As I have been writing for the past two years, it is impossible to overstate the importance of the Jose Padilla case. The power assumed by the U.S. military and the Bush administration in the Padilla case constitutes what is arguably the most ominous and dangerous threat to the freedom of the American people in our lifetime. Fortunately, this past Monday a U.S. district court in South Carolina put the quietus to the assumption and exercise of such power. The court?s ruling was a major victory for freedom, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. Unfortunately, however, the government is appealing, hoping to overturn the district court?s judgment.

(Underscoring the vital importance The Future of Freedom Foundation has placed on the Padilla case and the threat that it poses to the American people, we have published more than 40 original articles and commentaries on Padilla since his arrest and we have linked to countless editorials and op-eds on Padilla from other publications in our FFF Email Update. A list of FFF?s orginal articles and commentaries is posted at the end of this article. )

Jose Padilla was arrested at a Chicago airport almost three years ago on suspicion of having conspired to commit terrorism. The ordinary procedure ? the procedure that has been followed in the United States since our nation?s founding ? would have been to charge him with federal crimes dealing with terrorism, indict him, bring him to trial before a jury, and, if convicted, sentence him. That?s the way the U.S. criminal justice system has worked for more than 200 years.

With Padilla, the Pentagon has tried to do something completely different, something that is alien to the American way of life, something that was obviously modeled on the procedures employed by the military regimes in Chile and Argentina, many of whose military officers were trained in detention and torture techniques by the Pentagon?s very own School of the Americas, during their ?wars on terrorism? in the 1980s. Securing a statement from President Bush that Jose Padilla was an ?enemy combatant? in the ?war on terrorism,? the Pentagon took the position that it could bypass the entire federal criminal justice system set up by the Constitution, including rights and guarantees stretching all the way back to Magna Carta. These included habeas corpus, due process of law, trial by jury, and right to counsel.

The reason the Padilla doctrine is ? and should be ? so critically important to the American people is that if the federal courts uphold it, the doctrine will apply not just to Padilla but to all Americans. The reason that the Pentagon has limited the exercise of such power to only one American arrested on U.S. soil is obvious: it attracts much less attention from the public and, therefore, does not appear so threatening.

But make no mistake about it: If the Pentagon?s power to arrest Americans for terrorism and punish them without federal court interference is upheld by the courts, the floodgates will be open to omnipotent military power in America. American life will never be the same again. Life will be transformed by such power in ways unimaginable. No one will be safe from military arrest, including newspaper editors, government critics, and dissidents. Any person ? any person ? deemed to be an ?enemy combatant? and taken into military custody will have no recourse to avoid punishment, except for the ?good faith? of the Pentagon, the government organization that is responsible for plunging this nation into one of the most shameful torture, sex abuse, rape, and murder scandals in its history, not to mention the resulting cover-up.

There can be no doubt that the Pentagon is salivating over the possibility of wielding the same power over U.S. citizens that it has been wielding over foreigners ever since 9/11. This includes the power to send detainees to U.S. gulags in different parts of the world for indefinite detention and punishment without interference from the courts. It includes the outsourcing of detainees to friendly authoritarian regimes so that they, rather than U.S. officials, can do the torturing on behalf and for the benefit of the U.S. government. In fact, the Pentagon itself would admit that the very reason it set up its primary gulag in Cuba was to avoid the constraints of the Constitution and interference from the federal judiciary in its treatment of prisoners and detainees.

Fortunately, in a testament to the wisdom and foresight of our ancestors, who established the judicial branch of government with independent judges, the federal judiciary has stopped the Pentagon dead in its tracks, especially given the Supreme Court?s recent decision in favor of Yaser Hamdi and the South Carolina district court?s decision in favor of Padilla.

Several months ago, over the vehement objections of the Pentagon, whose position toward the Court was essentially ?Butt out of our operations!? the Supreme Court in Rasul v. Bush held that the Pentagon?s operations at Guantanamo Bay were subject to judicial review and, moreover, that the Guantanamo Bay detainees had the right to question their detention in federal court. The Court also ordered federal officials to either charge or release Hamdi, an American, whom the Pentagon had held for some two years as an ?enemy combatant? in the war on terrorism.

And that?s exactly what Judge Henry F. Floyd ordered in his ruling on Monday in South Carolina ? either charge Padilla or release him. Relying on the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court, Floyd made it clear that the omnipotent power that the Pentagon has been seeking over the American people, as represented by the Padilla case, was not going to stand here in the United States. In essence, he held that that?s not what America and the American way of life are all about.

Significantly, Floyd rejected the government?s ludicrous claim that it has made since 9/11 ? that terrorism is an act of war rather than a criminal offense. You?ll recall that ever since 9/11 we here at The Future of Freedom Foundation ? unlike so many supporters of the ?war on terrorism? ? have been making exactly that point ? that terrorism is a crime, not an act of war. No matter how vicious those attacks, no matter how many people were killed or injured, the fact remains that the attacks fall within the same criminal-justice parameters as the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center and the Timothy McVeigh attack on the Oklahoma City federal building. The accused in those cases were arrested; indicted; accorded due process of law, right to counsel, and trial by jury; and were convicted. That?s the way the system works and is supposed to work. That?s in fact why Zacarias Moussaoui, whom the feds claim was the 20th hijacker on 9/11, is being tried in federal court rather than being thrown into a military dungeon, tortured, and punished without being accorded the procedural protections in the Bill of Rights.

Unfortunately, the Pentagon continues to fight tooth and nail for the power represented by the Padilla doctrine. That?s why the government immediately announced plans to appeal the ruling. The military dearly wants the power to arrest any American and jail and punish him without federal court interference. They know that Jose Padilla and the federal judiciary are the only barriers standing in their way.

We cannot rely on Congress to stand up for the Constitution and to protect us from the military. Congress has remained silent and supine with respect to the Padilla doctrine and civil liberties ever since 9/11. Even worse, the subservience that many members of Congress have paid to the Pentagon is almost embarrassing.

We can hope only that the federal judiciary stands firm in the defense of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the criminal-justice system that has distinguished our nation from all others in history ? stands firm in the defense of our freedom.

Equally important, we must continue to raise the consciousness of the American people to the threat that the Padilla doctrine poses to our way of life, especially given the possibility that the president and the Pentagon might try to persuade the Pentagon?s friends in Congress to grant the military the power over the American people that it has so persistently asserted in the Padilla case.

Jose Padilla has been incarcerated by the U.S. military for almost three years. No charges. No indictment. No trial by jury. No due process of law. For most of that time, no right to counsel. That?s the way things were done in Chile under General Pinochet and Argentina under General Videla. That?s, in fact, the way things were done under Stalin in the Soviet Union and Hitler in Germany.

It?s true that Padilla might well have committed the crimes of which he is accused. If so, then the government simply needs to charge him with those crimes. Otherwise, as Judge Floyd ordered, federal officials must release him. That?s the way we do things in America. That?s how things are done in a free society.

Jacob Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation. Send him email.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,433
6,090
126
"This is not just something that will affect those here illegally or who are blue collar workers."

Oh well in that case it must be important.

So true though, who cares about the people who do, well you know, the dirty jobs. High level executives, scientists, and business leaders are the only people who count. That who we are, right? If only all our immigrants and guests has asses that don't smell.

 

kalster

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2002
7,355
6
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
"This is not just something that will affect those here illegally or who are blue collar workers."

Oh well in that case it must be important.

So true though, who cares about the people who do, well you know, the dirty jobs. High level executives, scientists, and business leaders are the only people who count. That who we are, right? If only all our immigrants and guests has asses that don't smell.

she (the immigration attorney)was only pointing it out, since all the people the attorney sent the mail to were engineers,exec's. basic rights apply to everyone ofcourse no matter what job they perform (or if they are citizen or not IMO)
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: rchiu
Yeap, that's right. Bush Admin found strong resistance from people who can vote on the policies of holding American people without going through judicial process. So now they pick on people who cannot vote.

:disgust:

What citizen has been held with no judicial process that hasnt been proven to be an enemy combatant?

um, about 80% of the poor sods detained and eventually released from gitmo..?
 

andy9o

Senior member
May 27, 2005
494
2
0
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

-Pastor Martin Niemöller
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,433
6,090
126
Originally posted by: kalster
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
"This is not just something that will affect those here illegally or who are blue collar workers."

Oh well in that case it must be important.

So true though, who cares about the people who do, well you know, the dirty jobs. High level executives, scientists, and business leaders are the only people who count. That who we are, right? If only all our immigrants and guests has asses that don't smell.

she (the immigration attorney)was only pointing it out, since all the people the attorney sent the mail to were engineers,exec's. basic rights apply to everyone ofcourse no matter what job they perform (or if they are citizen or not IMO)

Good

 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well, it's not quite as bad as you make it sound. The term used in the bill is "enemy combatant", and is clearly defined in the bill.

It's still unconstitutional no matter WHAT term they use and how clearly it's defined. The constitution does NOT only apply to citizens, it clearly applies to legal resident aliens as well at the very least. And last time I checked, you can't be stripped of your constitutional rights just because the executive branch slaps a label on you.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Yeah, remember what our country was founded on?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
There is no reason for immigrants to come to America. They can take our jobs in their home country :D
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: Martin
If you're not guilty, you have nothing to worry about.


That is the attitude people have before a country turn into dictatorship.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Some times it is hard to tell if you guys are serious or not with some of your "dictator "and "Nazi" posts.
I actually believe that IF a Democrat was in office they would be doing half or more of the things Bush is doing, and most likely the Republicans would be the ones complaining. That is the nature of our system.

Now if Padilla is a us citizen then he has the right to a fair trial and all that. However, do we not need to balance his rights to a fair trial to the rights of all Americans to be safe?
If a trail against him would out the source of the information we have against him and if that source was still in use then isn't putting him a trial a bad idea?
Perhaps you would all be happier if we let a guy who wanted to KILL all of you go free?
I think we are moving in the right direction here.
We need a court that can look at these cases and decide who can and can't be held without a trial or charges based on national security.

As far as non-citizens I am 100% against them being treated the same as citizens in a court of law. Look at Moussaoui's trial. It took 2 years and cost millions of dollars, we can't run every terrorist we catch through our court system, it would create a HUGE problem.

For those of you who don't agree with my statement of a Democrat doing the same things for evidence I shall remind you that the GREATEST Democrat to ever hold office also presided over the internment of 110,000 Japanese during WW 2, about 60,000 of which were US citizens. Now if Bush starts talking about rounding up Muslims let me know.
 

compnovice

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2005
3,192
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn

As far as non-citizens I am 100% against them being treated the same as citizens in a court of law. Look at Moussaoui's trial. It took 2 years and cost millions of dollars, we can't run every terrorist we catch through our court system, it would create a HUGE problem.

Would you support an American citizen being held in Chinese prison without a trail? Would you support an American ACCUSED of (make up anything) amputated by the Saudi police without giving any chance to defend himself legally?

If your answer is NO, I cannot fathom any moral, ethical or realistic logic for your statement .



 

newmachineoverlord

Senior member
Jan 22, 2006
484
0
0
Originally posted by: kalster
As Congress returned from summer recess the raging debate over this nation's immigration problem and policies continued unabated. The only major change that was accomplished before the Congress adjourned was the passage of legislation to strip non-citizens of the right to habeus corpus. This legislation will prevent those living in the United States legally, such as green card holders (residents), from any ability to challenge their arrest. The government may now arrest without cause, a warrant or any other form of due process, anyone who is not a U.S. citizen and hold them indefinitely without charges and without even acknowledging their arrest and detention. There is no longer any ability to seek redress for unlawful government actions in the courts for these non-citizens. While some may feel this has no impact on them personally, it is important to remember that approximately 10% of the U.S. population are legal resident aliens with green cards including many high level executives, scientists, and business leaders. This is not just something that will affect those here illegally or who are blue collar workers.


This is crazy, I came here to get my Masters, and have been in legal status for the past 5 years. these rules are completely ridiculous

I think the current congress needs to take a remedial class in constitutional law, and so does everyone in the administration. It says in the text, plain as day, article I section 9, under the section entitled "limitations on congress":
"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

This was the only right which was enshrined in the original constitution, before the amendments, because the authors realized that it is in fact the most important right. Without it, you really would have no other rights. Any bill which suspends habias corpus is clearly and blatantly invalid and unconstitutional, and any congressperson who votes for such a bill is plainly in contempt of the constitution and should be removed. Unfortunately contempt for the constitution and oathbreaking (they're all sworn to uphold the constitution) don't seem to be crimes that I'm aware of, or at least they don't bother to prosecute them.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: compnovice
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
As far as non-citizens I am 100% against them being treated the same as citizens in a court of law. Look at Moussaoui's trial. It took 2 years and cost millions of dollars, we can't run every terrorist we catch through our court system, it would create a HUGE problem.
Would you support an American citizen being held in Chinese prison without a trail? Would you support an American ACCUSED of (make up anything) amputated by the Saudi police without giving any chance to defend himself legally?

If your answer is NO, I cannot fathom any moral, ethical or realistic logic for your statement .
Nice diversionary tactic. Re-read my post and you will see that I stated that we need a court that will look at these cases. I just don?t think it should be the same court you and I go to when we get in trouble.

Make it a military court, or a special federal court etc etc. But create a frame work that provides some legal frame work in which to deal with non-citizens in terror cases and at the same time protects the right of every day Americans to be safe.

Instead of complaining about my idea, what is your idea for dealing with the 500 or so "accused" terrorists in Gitmo?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
I think the current congress needs to take a remedial class in constitutional law, and so does everyone in the administration. It says in the text, plain as day, article I section 9, under the section entitled "limitations on congress":
"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

This was the only right which was enshrined in the original constitution, before the amendments, because the authors realized that it is in fact the most important right. Without it, you really would have no other rights. Any bill which suspends habias corpus is clearly and blatantly invalid and unconstitutional, and any congressperson who votes for such a bill is plainly in contempt of the constitution and should be removed. Unfortunately contempt for the constitution and oathbreaking (they're all sworn to uphold the constitution) don't seem to be crimes that I'm aware of, or at least they don't bother to prosecute them.
Could you not make the argument that an American citizen picked up in a terror plot is in fact committing an act of rebellion. Since the goal of the terrorists is not to just kill Americans, but to replace our system of government with one based on Islamic law. And certainly stopping a plot to set off a 'dirty' bomb and kill 50,000 people is a threat on "public safety"
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Could you not make the argument that an American citizen picked up in a terror plot is in fact committing an act of rebellion. Since the goal of the terrorists is not to just kill Americans, but to replace our system of government with one based on Islamic law. And certainly stopping a plot to set off a 'dirty' bomb and kill 50,000 people is a threat on "public safety"
You have a disturbing degree of a lack of understanding of constitutional law. This stipulation was meant to apply to situations where substancial numbers of people are in open violent rebellion against the government. The glaring issue here is the people arrested are not yet in open rebellion, and allowing the government to engage in the supension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus under these circumstances gives the government the ability to simpy make assertions about a group having been in rebellion that are difficult for the public to contest. Secondly, disrupting a plot simply involves PLANS for a rebellion, not stopping those actually engaging in it. Basically this all gives the government far more ability to simply suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus than our founding fathers intended.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
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ProfJohn

Now if Padilla is a us citizen then he has the right to a fair trial and all that. However, do we not need to balance his rights to a fair trial to the rights of all Americans to be safe?

There is no "balacing act" to consider.

The rights we accord to people is a measure of how civilized a nation we are. Great nations do the right thing even when it is hard or inconvienent.

How can we be taken seriously if we espouse great principles but only sometimes adhere to them.

Yes, we have made mistakes before, and the internment camps of WWII are an excellent example. But we only progress if we learn from our past mistakes.

The concept that we can abandon our high standards when we are afraid does not seem remotely acceptible to me.