Written 6 months prior to 1948 Arab-Israeli war ""As the Arabs see the Jews"His Majesty King Abdullah,"

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flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Israel is the dominant power in the region. Dont shoot at them and then cry foul when they come and punch you in the mouth.

Ah, you act as if this all started when someone shot at Israel conveniently ignoring all of history. As if Israel has never shot at anyone and then cried foul when they got punched in the mouth back.

The current situation is a cycle of revenge for something the other side has done. If the US started colonizing and ousting people from areas in Mexico I would expect Mexicans to fight back. Just because the US is the dominant power in the region means squat.

If I take a shot at someone across from me, and then he raises his weapon to shoot back, all the history behind my reasons for shooting dont mean shit, because he's about to try and kill my ass. We in America live in peace because we conquered the native Americans, and subdued them to a point to which they simply gave up. The remaining tribes, if you want to call them that, have every right to try to rise up and retake what they believe is theirs, but they should be prepared to suffer the consequences. The Palestenians are beaten, but they refuse to surrender and lay down their arms, so they in turn live in misery. Now their cause might eventually prevail due to favorable demographic changes, or some other unforseen event, but if that is what they are holding out for, they have a long life of suffering to endure before that becomes a reality. This isnt a might makes right argument, it is a reminder that our modern system of mediating conflict and creating short term solutions to long term problems only glosses over the fundamental fact that the one with the might sets his own rules.

Actually the international community sets rules as well. For example if Russia were to try and take over Georgia or the US tried to take over Canada right now using their own rules because they have might there would probably be some international involvement.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Israel is the dominant power in the region. Dont shoot at them and then cry foul when they come and punch you in the mouth.

Ah, you act as if this all started when someone shot at Israel conveniently ignoring all of history. As if Israel has never shot at anyone and then cried foul when they got punched in the mouth back.

The current situation is a cycle of revenge for something the other side has done. If the US started colonizing and ousting people from areas in Mexico I would expect Mexicans to fight back. Just because the US is the dominant power in the region means squat.

If I take a shot at someone across from me, and then he raises his weapon to shoot back, all the history behind my reasons for shooting dont mean shit, because he's about to try and kill my ass. We in America live in peace because we conquered the native Americans, and subdued them to a point to which they simply gave up. The remaining tribes, if you want to call them that, have every right to try to rise up and retake what they believe is theirs, but they should be prepared to suffer the consequences. The Palestenians are beaten, but they refuse to surrender and lay down their arms, so they in turn live in misery. Now their cause might eventually prevail due to favorable demographic changes, or some other unforseen event, but if that is what they are holding out for, they have a long life of suffering to endure before that becomes a reality. This isnt a might makes right argument, it is a reminder that our modern system of mediating conflict and creating short term solutions to long term problems only glosses over the fundamental fact that the one with the might sets his own rules.

Actually the international community sets rules as well. For example if Russia were to try and take over Georgia or the US tried to take over Canada right now using their own rules because they have might there would probably be some international involvement.

International involvement pursuant to the relative might of the parties involved, and their willingness to use it. If the US sent forces into Canada, the world would bitch and whine through all available diplomatic channels, and ultimately do nothing, because they couldnt do anything. After a few generations, Canada would probably be our undisputed territory, and our means of obtaining it would be yet another footnote in history.

 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Israel is the dominant power in the region. Dont shoot at them and then cry foul when they come and punch you in the mouth.

Ah, you act as if this all started when someone shot at Israel conveniently ignoring all of history. As if Israel has never shot at anyone and then cried foul when they got punched in the mouth back.

The current situation is a cycle of revenge for something the other side has done. If the US started colonizing and ousting people from areas in Mexico I would expect Mexicans to fight back. Just because the US is the dominant power in the region means squat.

Except that Jewish people have been in the region for thousands of years, while people from the US have no history of living within Mexico's borders.

That means nothing to the argument. "Being in the region" is not an excuse to take land from people. Are you implying that Mexicans with native American ancestry have a right to take land from the US?

Right, people who are repeatedly persecuted have no right to defend themselves. And obviously those native to Mexico have no claim over land that isn't in Mexico.

Here are some points that incredibly pertinent to the argument:
- The land has been occupied continuously by both groups for well over 2,000 years.
- The land had not been effectively administered by a local government for nearly 2,000 years.
- The government in place, at the time of the creation of the State of Israel was British, not Arab.
- The widespread revolts in the region in the 1930s was a clear indication that neither Jews nor Arabs could comfortably live amongst one another (at least during that timeframe). Hence the idea that the region should be split into two countries. In fact, that was the basis under which talks of a British withdrawal were begun -- with the assumption that there would be two states for the populations that didn't get along.

The idea of separating (forcibly or voluntarily) populations that don't get along is one that has been used repeatedly throughout history.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0

"Just try . attempt.. to put yourself in the shoes of the people who LIVED on the land while it was being stolen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are all dead now. It's history. It's a done deal. It's time these Jew hating Arabs quit teaching their offspring their hate and move the fuck on, like the other 5 billion of us on the planet have done.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned

"Just try . attempt.. to put yourself in the shoes of the people who LIVED on the land while it was being stolen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are all dead now. It's history. It's a done deal. It's time these Jew hating Arabs quit teaching their offspring their hate and move the fuck on, like the other 5 billion of us on the planet have done.

You would be amazed how many people on both sides recognize this simple fact. Most don't even care who was there first or whatever nonsense is spout -- they just want to live in peace in a country they can all respect instead of killing each other every single solitary day.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Oh yea, also as you like to point out so often about the international legalities of our own (USA) actions, you must come to the conclusion that the land was not (STOLEN) from the Arabs.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
By the late 1940s, there were essentially an equal number of Jews and Arabs living in the disputed territory.

Not even close. Acording to the figures used for the U.N. Partion plan in 1947, Arabs outnumbered Jews two to one in Palestine. Also, Jews owned less than 10% of the land.

I stand corrected, but Jews owned about 1/4 the land in Palestine, not <10%.

Where are you getting numbers from? here is proof that at least in 1943 Jewish land ownership was well under 10%. 1,514,247 Dunums out of 26,184,702 total, which isn't even 6%:

http://www.palestineremembered...lestine/Story7011.html

Originally posted by: BeauJangles
It also doesn't change my point -- Neither of these groups got along and there...

There were some Jewish getting along well with the Arabs before the European Jews started colonizing the place, and the Arabs gathered as one run off those European Jews when their numbers were small if those Arabs back then hadn't been willing to live and let live.

Originally posted by: BeauJangles
... is a LONG history of both mutual and forcible partitions of land.

I am familiar with the history, but none of it justifies Israelis ongoing colonization of the Palestinian West Bank.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned

"Just try . attempt.. to put yourself in the shoes of the people who LIVED on the land while it was being stolen"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are all dead now. It's history. It's a done deal. It's time these Jew hating Arabs quit teaching their offspring their hate and move the fuck on, like the other 5 billion of us on the planet have done.

It isn't a done deal, there are millions of Palestinians under Israel military martial law as as Israel continues to colonize the hilltops around then, as Israel been doing for over four decades now and have shown no intend to stop. Only when that colonization ended, can the resulting attacks and counter attacks on both sides be stopped. That is what has to happen before this can be considered a done deal.

 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,813
13
0
the maps tell the story:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/...l?q=mapstellstory.html

also, this site has some good info on the origin of the conflict:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html



David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister):

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I have a few thoughts after reading this. It's difficult to challenge a work this old, because I doubt anyone could verify his sources, which is understandable. Nonetheless:

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

I think this paragraph enlightens me to the complexity of this conflict. Historic ownership is important, I grant. But even that ownership may have been granted by nefarious means up to and including conquest (as in the case of Spain, Italy, and the United Kingdom of Israel.) And as we reach further and further back into history in the vain attempt of establishing the identity of the original owner, I can't help but realize the absurdity of it. By that premise, America should cede its territories to the Hawaiians and Native Americans, and they in turn should cede it to whatever ancestor preceded them, which could be anyone. It just seems ridiculous.

This conflict centers around the very nature of ownership. That is, it questions if ownership is defined by who had it first. And the answer must simply be no, if only because that's a very poor premise to establish, for the reasons mentioned above.

So then where does that leave us?

My only certainty: It's wrong to kill innocent civilians, no matter what your grievance. If Palestine and the Arabs want their claim taken seriously, they must begin with the basics. Conduct yourself civilly. If war is to be waged, use your warriors against the enemy's warriors.

I'd be willing to bet that many Americans, myself included, ignore Palestine's plight 100% because of their tactics. Don't expect to be treated like a human until you act like a human.

Admit that the same number of Americans would 100% ignore the plight of Palestenians if the terrorist acts and rockets stopped tomorrow.

Look at the many periods they've stopped and the fact that nothing was done to address their situation, as Israel continued the illegal expansions and other repressions.

The bottom line is that for nearly all these people, their position is based on 'Israel is an important nation in the bible's predictions and/or they're our ally, so I'm on their side'.

No, the bottom line is that terrorism is never justified. Have the Palestinians made any attempt to distance themselves from this?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
126
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Haven't finished the article yet, but I thought I'd point out this contradiction:

"Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab."

"I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago!"

Not sure. But a 2000 year old claim is still a claim, no more than a 1300 year old claim is. Although that's a weak argument. I'm going to continue reading.

Also, on a side note, I can't help but ask: Assuming everything said here is true, does it justify terrorism? Can arabs legitimately hold innocent jews to task for this?


It would be interesting to know what the population of that land was and how much of it was completely worthless swampland and desert and how much of it was purchased for settlement by the Jews. My understanding is that the land was mostly worthless and non-arable until it was redeemed through backbreaking labor. It seems like transforming worthless desert into fertile land while also purchasing much of it would give one a claim to the land.

Of course you are completely ignoring the fact that Jews removed people from their land and stole it, often violently. Your understanding is wrong.

Flavio you are in total denial!!!
Your defense when somebody questions your opinion is to say like a little kid--- THATS A LIE!! LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!!!

Provide some links that totally 100% support your opinion!
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are assuming no actual Jews lived in the land prior to 1948. This is a bit of a miscalculation. I will call it ignorance.

That would be beside the point and an ignorant argument. Jews and Arabs both lived on the land before 1948 in relative peace.

How would that possibly justify the forceful expulsion of arabs from the land during the zionist movement?

I live in an area with many cultures right now. Does that mean I can expel the other cultures from my city?

I will call your argument idiotic.
Has your city lost a war to a foreign power and is now considered that foreign power's terrirtory? Are you a leader of that foreign power? If so then you can expel those other cultures as you see fit.

Since I doubt that you meet those qualifications your analogy sucks.


When hitler did this a few years prior, everybody threw a fit :)

Funny how 20th century conventions (enshrined after wwi) just dont' apply to the Israeli/Arab conflict.
Without Hitler there likely never would have been an Israel in the first place.


I wouldnt' say never. Zionism was already in place since 1880 something or whatever and they decided on the palestinian lands as the place for their Israel sometime afterwards.

The point is simple: YOu cannot justify Israel's current existence based on rights of conqueest when such rights were universally condemned and eliminated post wwi. Can you name another nation that has successfully conquered and retained land in such a manner since wwi?

No you can't.

The problem is that the issue isn't that simple. It's not as if all the Jewish people in the world climbed in their tanks, rode into town, and took it over. Jews have been living on that land for more than 2,000 years. Arabs, as a religious body, have been there for 1,400 years. By the late 1940s, there were essentially an equal number of Jews and Arabs living in the disputed territory. They didn't really get along too well, but neither group wanted to leave. There is a long history of nations and territory being split up over religious, nationalistic, and cultural differences. I don't see why this split was really any different.


HA!! You just glossed over that vital period from 1880 to 1940 when the palestinians were not allowed to determine their own immigration policy. Sure there were jews living there, as there are christians living there. The problem, there are still native americans living in California. There are still mexicans livining in CAlifornia. At some point there needs to be a statute of limitations for acting on historical claims.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
126
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
For anyone who doesn't get it, let's pretend the entire world sent the entire population of Mexico (~106,000,000 people) to disperse themselves around the United States. I'm sure all you defiantly pro-Israel people would be happy to greet them all with open arms, right?

Um isnt that already happening?

Yeah buddy.. and do you like it?

YES!! For the most part they are family oriented people. They work very hard and are friendly!!
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
I have a few thoughts after reading this. It's difficult to challenge a work this old, because I doubt anyone could verify his sources, which is understandable. Nonetheless:

This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

I think this paragraph enlightens me to the complexity of this conflict. Historic ownership is important, I grant. But even that ownership may have been granted by nefarious means up to and including conquest (as in the case of Spain, Italy, and the United Kingdom of Israel.) And as we reach further and further back into history in the vain attempt of establishing the identity of the original owner, I can't help but realize the absurdity of it. By that premise, America should cede its territories to the Hawaiians and Native Americans, and they in turn should cede it to whatever ancestor preceded them, which could be anyone. It just seems ridiculous.

This conflict centers around the very nature of ownership. That is, it questions if ownership is defined by who had it first. And the answer must simply be no, if only because that's a very poor premise to establish, for the reasons mentioned above.

So then where does that leave us?

My only certainty: It's wrong to kill innocent civilians, no matter what your grievance. If Palestine and the Arabs want their claim taken seriously, they must begin with the basics. Conduct yourself civilly. If war is to be waged, use your warriors against the enemy's warriors.

I'd be willing to bet that many Americans, myself included, ignore Palestine's plight 100% because of their tactics. Don't expect to be treated like a human until you act like a human.

Admit that the same number of Americans would 100% ignore the plight of Palestenians if the terrorist acts and rockets stopped tomorrow.

Look at the many periods they've stopped and the fact that nothing was done to address their situation, as Israel continued the illegal expansions and other repressions.

The bottom line is that for nearly all these people, their position is based on 'Israel is an important nation in the bible's predictions and/or they're our ally, so I'm on their side'.

No, the bottom line is that terrorism is never justified. Have the Palestinians made any attempt to distance themselves from this?

So, do you see one side as doves and the other side as rats
One side deserving to have their land stolen by force and the other side to have no repercussions from that theft

Do you believe the hokey bullshit that people tell you in regards to the Bible and that you, if not Jewish, are not one of the chosen and are less than them.

I guess you didn't look at the maps... These are much more modern times in which these Jewish people steal land.. much different than when we came in and stole negroes and forced them to be slaves and stole land and slaughtered Native Americans and slaughtered their food supplys so as to drive them from their lands and starve them to death and beat and kill them.

You seem to only see one side of the story because in America you are taught that Israel can do no wrong
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
For anyone who doesn't get it, let's pretend the entire world sent the entire population of Mexico (~106,000,000 people) to disperse themselves around the United States. I'm sure all you defiantly pro-Israel people would be happy to greet them all with open arms, right?

Um isnt that already happening?

Yeah buddy.. and do you like it?

YES!! For the most part they are family oriented people. They work very hard and are friendly!!

You totally ignored and glossed it.. When they came. YOU and your family were forcibly REMOVED to make room for them.. 2Xtreme.. was too fucking nice with his scenario

^^^^^^^^ now will you love them and welcome them with open arms
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Perhaps the root of the problem, from either a Arab or Jewish standpoint, is the simple division of residents in a given area into groups of 'US' and 'THEM' With a somewhat implicit assumption that the two groups are like oil and water, simply incapable of mixing. And that sadly, can act as a self fulfilling prophesy.

Even as a kind of world armpit of the universe backwater, Palestine saw somewhat of an improvement and a Renaissance during the late 19'th and early 20'th centuries, thanks to an infusion of Russian Jews fleeing extreme anti-sematism. I am of course referring to the Saul Hertzog back to the land movement, as Jewish communities all over Russia pooled money to send in a few people to buy some land in Palestine.

And like most non-violent cultural mixing, the Russian Jews brought back the ancient practice of irrigation to the benefit of the whole region. And in many cities in the region, Arabs and Jews got along very well as a rising tide lifted all boats.

And with the possible exceptions of Afro American, the same has been by in large true. We soon assimilate our immigrants, and in two or three generations, the 'Thems' simply become part of 'US'. And part of the root of the Israeli problem is their unwillingness to assimilate or accept anything but their own religion, and to too great of an extent, Israel has built an Apartheid society, that can only be propped up by an inordinate and exhausting amount of military force.

Once again, IMHO, we can only have peace in Israel when various groups share it.

Dude you seriously need to look around the world. Everywhere Muslims reside from Southern Thailand to London England it's "oil and water" For every active conflict which involves secular forces e.g. Columbia/FARC I can name 10 which have Muslim participants. Multiculturalism has nothing to do with it it's the only faith I know in which your entry into Heaven is assured by killing those of another faith in a holy war. Until we come to this salient fact we will be unable to defend ourselves.

Many Wars have Christian and Jewish participants. It's like you're trying to make it out like it's the Muslims against non-religious people all the time. Really all religions are kind of screwed up. Until you come to this salient fact you are going to continue to completely misunderstand the world around you.

Ultimately you are trying to justify the actions of Israelis with bigotry. "I don't like Muslims so do whatever you want to them."

Not really all religions are screwed up in the sense that there is simply no worldwide terrorist networks today that finds its justification in the scriptures of the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or the Book of Mormon. It is not bigotry to note that the Qur?an is inspiring terrorists, they admit it themselves.

I am not saying that Muslims are inherently bad people. Most Muslims are like most people everywhere. I am saying that there are elements in Islam that incline some adherents to commit terror.

There are elements in other religions that inspire some adherents to commit terror. Ever heard of the IRA? Abortion clinic bombings? There's even Buddhist terrorists. There's also no doubt that much of the Jewsih treatment of Palestinians can be considered terrorism. There have been religious wars as long as there have been religions. There are elements of most religions that incline people towards violence directed at other religions.

That is why I say all religions are screwed up. I grew up catholic was going to hell. Most religions declare themselves right and everyone else wrong and you're certainly not going to tell me that the bible doesn't encourage violence towards unbelievers.

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death"

Perhaps these guys will lsiten to you.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Also, on a side note, I can't help but ask: Assuming everything said here is true, does it justify terrorism? Can arabs legitimately hold innocent jews to task for this?

The OP is using all sorts of propaganda to justify terrorism and to beat us upside the head if we even DARE to defend ourselves against our killers. Given all his sympathizing, he might as well be one of them.

This argument falls apart with the simple fact that Israel is doing WAY more killing than Palestinians. How DARE those Palestinians defend themselves against their killers.

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Perhaps the root of the problem, from either a Arab or Jewish standpoint, is the simple division of residents in a given area into groups of 'US' and 'THEM' With a somewhat implicit assumption that the two groups are like oil and water, simply incapable of mixing. And that sadly, can act as a self fulfilling prophesy.

Even as a kind of world armpit of the universe backwater, Palestine saw somewhat of an improvement and a Renaissance during the late 19'th and early 20'th centuries, thanks to an infusion of Russian Jews fleeing extreme anti-sematism. I am of course referring to the Saul Hertzog back to the land movement, as Jewish communities all over Russia pooled money to send in a few people to buy some land in Palestine.

And like most non-violent cultural mixing, the Russian Jews brought back the ancient practice of irrigation to the benefit of the whole region. And in many cities in the region, Arabs and Jews got along very well as a rising tide lifted all boats.

And with the possible exceptions of Afro American, the same has been by in large true. We soon assimilate our immigrants, and in two or three generations, the 'Thems' simply become part of 'US'. And part of the root of the Israeli problem is their unwillingness to assimilate or accept anything but their own religion, and to too great of an extent, Israel has built an Apartheid society, that can only be propped up by an inordinate and exhausting amount of military force.

Once again, IMHO, we can only have peace in Israel when various groups share it.

Dude you seriously need to look around the world. Everywhere Muslims reside from Southern Thailand to London England it's "oil and water" For every active conflict which involves secular forces e.g. Columbia/FARC I can name 10 which have Muslim participants. Multiculturalism has nothing to do with it it's the only faith I know in which your entry into Heaven is assured by killing those of another faith in a holy war. Until we come to this salient fact we will be unable to defend ourselves.

Many Wars have Christian and Jewish participants. It's like you're trying to make it out like it's the Muslims against non-religious people all the time. Really all religions are kind of screwed up. Until you come to this salient fact you are going to continue to completely misunderstand the world around you.

Ultimately you are trying to justify the actions of Israelis with bigotry. "I don't like Muslims so do whatever you want to them."

Not really all religions are screwed up in the sense that there is simply no worldwide terrorist networks today that finds its justification in the scriptures of the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or the Book of Mormon. It is not bigotry to note that the Qur?an is inspiring terrorists, they admit it themselves.

I am not saying that Muslims are inherently bad people. Most Muslims are like most people everywhere. I am saying that there are elements in Islam that incline some adherents to commit terror.

There are elements in other religions that inspire some adherents to commit terror. Ever heard of the IRA? Abortion clinic bombings? There's even Buddhist terrorists. There's also no doubt that much of the Jewsih treatment of Palestinians can be considered terrorism. There have been religious wars as long as there have been religions. There are elements of most religions that incline people towards violence directed at other religions.

That is why I say all religions are screwed up. I grew up catholic was going to hell. Most religions declare themselves right and everyone else wrong and you're certainly not going to tell me that the bible doesn't encourage violence towards unbelievers.

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death"

Perhaps these guys will lsiten to you.


Jesus Christ .. Israelis have their own terrorists.. how can they deny it...

Look up the creation of Israel when they had UN and British peacekeepers there being murdered by Israeli terrorists so they could not report on the abuses done to or protect the Palestinian peoples
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Zebo
Not really all religions are screwed up in the sense that there is simply no worldwide terrorist networks today that finds its justification in the scriptures of the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita or the Book of Mormon. It is not bigotry to note that the Qur?an is inspiring terrorists, they admit it themselves.

I am not saying that Muslims are inherently bad people. Most Muslims are like most people everywhere. I am saying that there are elements in Islam that incline some adherents to commit terror.

Two questions:

1. Do you approve the use of force to defend your land if a foreign power takes some of it to create a new nation?

2. Do you think that if the Palestenians had the military might of the US that they would use the military for attacking the invader (in their view) instead of terrorism, if it worked?

1) Yes - however, do not complain if you get slapped around when doing so. And this is what is happening! People feel that the Palestinians should not be slapped around.
And the same happened with Israel from '48 onward. A foriegn power (the Arabs then Palestinians) have been attempting to take their land by force/war.

2) Yes

If Canada tried to defend itself from the US trying to take their land and got smacked around while doing so I would fully expect them to complain and rightfully so. I would also expect the rest of the world to listen.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Israel is the dominant power in the region. Dont shoot at them and then cry foul when they come and punch you in the mouth.

Ah, you act as if this all started when someone shot at Israel conveniently ignoring all of history. As if Israel has never shot at anyone and then cried foul when they got punched in the mouth back.

The current situation is a cycle of revenge for something the other side has done. If the US started colonizing and ousting people from areas in Mexico I would expect Mexicans to fight back. Just because the US is the dominant power in the region means squat.

If I take a shot at someone across from me, and then he raises his weapon to shoot back, all the history behind my reasons for shooting dont mean shit, because he's about to try and kill my ass. We in America live in peace because we conquered the native Americans, and subdued them to a point to which they simply gave up. The remaining tribes, if you want to call them that, have every right to try to rise up and retake what they believe is theirs, but they should be prepared to suffer the consequences. The Palestenians are beaten, but they refuse to surrender and lay down their arms, so they in turn live in misery. Now their cause might eventually prevail due to favorable demographic changes, or some other unforseen event, but if that is what they are holding out for, they have a long life of suffering to endure before that becomes a reality. This isnt a might makes right argument, it is a reminder that our modern system of mediating conflict and creating short term solutions to long term problems only glosses over the fundamental fact that the one with the might sets his own rules.

Actually the international community sets rules as well. For example if Russia were to try and take over Georgia or the US tried to take over Canada right now using their own rules because they have might there would probably be some international involvement.

International involvement pursuant to the relative might of the parties involved, and their willingness to use it. If the US sent forces into Canada, the world would bitch and whine through all available diplomatic channels, and ultimately do nothing, because they couldnt do anything. After a few generations, Canada would probably be our undisputed territory, and our means of obtaining it would be yet another footnote in history.

Oh I think you're quite wrong there.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Also, on a side note, I can't help but ask: Assuming everything said here is true, does it justify terrorism? Can arabs legitimately hold innocent jews to task for this?

The OP is using all sorts of propaganda to justify terrorism and to beat us upside the head if we even DARE to defend ourselves against our killers. Given all his sympathizing, he might as well be one of them.

This argument falls apart with the simple fact that Israel is doing WAY more killing than Palestinians. How DARE those Palestinians defend themselves against their killers.

Jackass is one poster who is even far more dramatic than I am... I don't listen to anything he says.. "ourselves" .. like he is in Israel..

Does he equate Palestinian people to Al-Qaeda or does he equate Israel to USA?? Not sure wtf he is doing..
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,981
3,318
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Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
For anyone who doesn't get it, let's pretend the entire world sent the entire population of Mexico (~106,000,000 people) to disperse themselves around the United States. I'm sure all you defiantly pro-Israel people would be happy to greet them all with open arms, right?

Um isnt that already happening?

Yeah buddy.. and do you like it?

YES!! For the most part they are family oriented people. They work very hard and are friendly!!

You totally ignored and glossed it.. When they came. YOU and your family were forcibly REMOVED to make room for them.. 2Xtreme.. was too fucking nice with his scenario

^^^^^^^^ now will you love them and welcome them with open arms

I do not hate the hispanic people!! But it seems you have terrible issues with them. Have you sought out professional help??

 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Ozoned

"Just try . attempt.. to put yourself in the shoes of the people who LIVED on the land while it was being stolen"
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They are all dead now. It's history. It's a done deal. It's time these Jew hating Arabs quit teaching their offspring their hate and move the fuck on, like the other 5 billion of us on the planet have done.

Agreed. It's also time these Arab hating Jews quit teaching their children to hate and pulled out of land that isn't theirs and followed UN resolutions and quit escalating the situation.

By the way if Russia stole a bunch of land from the US and kicked US citizens out of say Texas, Florida, and Arizona how long would it take before got over it and moved the fuck on do you think?

 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Haven't finished the article yet, but I thought I'd point out this contradiction:

"Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab."

"I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago!"

Not sure. But a 2000 year old claim is still a claim, no more than a 1300 year old claim is. Although that's a weak argument. I'm going to continue reading.

Also, on a side note, I can't help but ask: Assuming everything said here is true, does it justify terrorism? Can arabs legitimately hold innocent jews to task for this?


It would be interesting to know what the population of that land was and how much of it was completely worthless swampland and desert and how much of it was purchased for settlement by the Jews. My understanding is that the land was mostly worthless and non-arable until it was redeemed through backbreaking labor. It seems like transforming worthless desert into fertile land while also purchasing much of it would give one a claim to the land.

Of course you are completely ignoring the fact that Jews removed people from their land and stole it, often violently. Your understanding is wrong.

Flavio you are in total denial!!!
Your defense when somebody questions your opinion is to say like a little kid--- THATS A LIE!! LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!!!

Provide some links that totally 100% support your opinion!

No, that's been your defense I already provided quotes and links while you have not provided any support for your side. Seems you're the one in denial.