Wow, V4-4500s out in CrapUSAs

[Mikewarrior2]

I can't actually even believe, to this day, that a game like that exists... I was just walking through Fry's one day, and they had this giant stack of "panty raider" games... its Deer Hunter for Teenage Boys or something...



Mike

 

[Imperium97]

What's even worse is that games like panty raider or deer hunter sell better then really good games like FreeSpace2.

 

[Wingznut]

I thought for sure that Panty Raider was a joke, when I first saw it advertised in a mag.

 

[MisterM]

BobberFett:



<< I still have a V3 3000 which runs Deus Ex and Unreal Tournament (the coolest games I've ever played) as well or better than my friends GeForce 2. How does that make the V4 a bad product? >>



Then your friend did something wrong. I can run UT@1024x768x32bit with my GeForce 2 GTS, and Deus Ex should perform similiar. This is on an Duron/A7V combo in Win2k nontheless, although I admit that a computer novice could have real problems getting UT to run well on an NVidia based Win2k system....

OneEng:



<< I am considering the GeForce MX, but I am very concerned about compatibility with my ASUS A7V and Duron. If it comes to pass that the compatibility issues are worked out with the MX and benchmarks show no major differences, I would concider the MX over the V4. >>



Compatibility seems pretty good, because the A7V is an recent MB, and because the GF2 MX uses less power than all the other GeForce`s. I have heard of a growing number of succesfull A7V/GF2 MX users, and in my case it`s running great even in Win2k.



<< I just read an article with some pictures of the Unreal2 engine capabilities. If games next year have this level of poly counts (a face shot has 3700 polys by itself....and just look at the detail of the trees!) a GPU will be a necessity. >>



Yup, Epic (the guys that program U and UT) announced an strategical partnership with NVidia, so you can presume that their next games are gonna rock on Nvidia based cards.

 

[Bappo]

Well considering I have both a TNT2U and a V3-3000 and have had for over a year, which card do you think is in my box? Right! the V3-3000. Better 2D and it just works. The TNTU works better in Delta Force 2 but that is the only game I have played in the last year where it out performed the V3. Otherwise the TNT2U has been a headache. Always having to reinstall different (or the same) drivers depending on what game I'm currently interested in, driver corruption for no bleepin reason. I was very disappointed with that purchase and it has soured me from considering a GF2 and maybe even a GF2U. And no, I don't play Q3. I also see no reason to get a V5 series card.

It is interesting to read here the strong convictions towards one manufacturer or another. I personally could care less who makes what as long as it works. I've been burned by nvidia twice now. You know what they say about third times a charm.

 

[OneEng]

MisterM,
Thanks for the information on compatibility. Now I guess I wait on the games to show up and buy the most recent incarnation of the GeForce value card!

 

[Czar]

Then we will see what T&amp;L realy can do for games, and the people who think that software T&amp;L is faster then hardware T&amp;L can just crawl down a hole and swallow their own shit, 3dfx included. Poor those who will spend $600 on a Voodoo5 6000.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Czar, why on earth would somebody by a V5 6K just to run in a low resolution where the card becomes T&amp;L limited?!

For crying out loud. If I had one of these bohemuths I'd be running at 1600x1200@32. Will the card be T&amp;L limited at that resolution? If you have a good CPU (600+) then I sure as hell hope not.

The V5 6000 is not, nor will it ever be, for low res gaming. You either run with FSAA enabled or at an insanely high resolution. Don't bring T&amp;L into the arguement, because it is moot.

 

[Wingznut]

Besides, name me five games (that are out right now), where I might give a rat's @ss about T&amp;L. Sure, we all know that they are coming... But how many video card generations away?

 

[Czar]

KnightBreed

The Voodoo5 6000 is T&amp;L limited in any resolution. T&amp;L are calculations that the CPU usually handles, in Hardware T&amp;L it is done by the card itself and alot faster, this also allows the cpu to do other things like physics.

The reason to bring T&amp;L into this is because the next card 3dfx will come out with wont have T&amp;L and their card after that has external T&amp;L. These games, Halo, Tribes, Unreal2 all need T&amp;L to run those high quality models, if the card doesnt have hardware T&amp;L then it doesnt matter how much fillrate it has and what resolution its run at because the CPU will be doing so much work that it will slow down the graphics card.

 

[Wingznut]

You skipped right over my question, Czar.

And Halo may never come out on the PC.

 

[Eli]

Games follow technology, Wing. It just wouldnt work (for the game developer) if they designed a game to use video card features that weren't out yet. So in short, It doesen't really matter. If you don't want to pay for a T&amp;L unit, then don't, and wait for games that can truely take advantage of it to come out. Obviously, this isnt very cost effective in the long run, since you'd have to upgrade your video card again when you wanted to play the latest and greatest...

 

[OneEng]

Czar,
You are mistaken. Current games are all bandwidth limited except at the lowest resolutions. I have to agree with the post that pointed out that with a high end video card, I would expect to be running at high resolution with lots of eye candy, not at low resolution with every option off.

None of todays games have sufficient poly count to make vertex calculation any where near as limiting as fill rate and band width on the video card (on at least a Duron 600 or better).

In a generation or two (around a year is my guess) this my no longer be true. Games may be shipping by that time that truely utilize and depend on on-board T&amp;L. Today that just isn't the case.

 

[Czar]

Wingznut

Sorry but I dint notice it , anyway, I can name two, MDK2 and Evolva. But I was saying that future games will use T&amp;L and T&amp;L will enhance graphics hellof alot more than FSAA or any T-Buffer effects. I´m talking about a future product and future games, future games wont be able to run in high detail on cards that dont have hardware T&amp;L. Halo will come out 1-2 months after the X-Box release, stated by Microsoft.

OneEng

Current games do not push polygon count, games like Tribes2, Halo and Unreal2 will. But I was talking about games like Unreal2, not current games.


Its just anoying how 3dfx PR has managed to brainwash people with bullshit like CPU's do T&amp;L faster than dedicated T&amp;L units.

 

[Michael]

Czar - Of course, NVIDIA's PR convincing people that their first generation T&amp;L unit was a must buy at least a year before any games even came close to requiring it was ok. Plus all the $120 MX PR when the retail prices are $150. And ATI focussing attention on all the DVD and TV stuff when a regular DVD player plus TV does ok is fine as well?

What makes you think that 3dfx's PR group &quot;convinced&quot; anyone about CPU T&amp;L vs. videocard T&amp;L? And what does that have to do with the bandwidth discussion going on?

Since you're obviously never going to buy a 3dfx card, why spend all the effort bashing htem.

It would be nice to be able to read news about NVIDIA, ATI, and 3dfx cards without all the fans jumping all over them. They all have stong points and weak points. I think that NVIDIA has the edge this generation in features, but the other cards also have their strong points. Other than Q3-based games, I think that NVIDIA's edge is much smaller than it is made out to be.

Michael

 

[Wingznut]

Well, Evolva sucks. And I have no problems whatsoever running MDK2, which totally rocks btw.

Like I said before... TRULY OPTIMIZED T&amp;L games are a ways off. Well, maybe one or two might come along in the next six months. But they surely won't be unplayable on my V5.

 

[OneEng]

Czar,
What 3dfx did was somewhat deceiving.....but quite clever. Not so unlike Intel (explanation later).

Since on board T&amp;L takes up bandwidth, and bandwidth is the limiting factor in high resolution high option sceniarios, it is possible that turing on T&amp;L actually slows down the frame rate at high resolutions.

This of course is NOT the same thing as saying that the CPU can calculate T&amp;L faster than the GPU. The GPU is designed specifically to handle this calculation where the CPU is a general calculation processor. So I agree that the statement 3dfx made even though the symptom they observe is related to where the calculations for T&amp;L take place.

This is like Intel showing off benchmarks for their P4 processor (memory stream bench). The implication is that the higher benchmark is due to the P4 core when in fact it is due to the better FSB and memory interface.

The best lie is always one that has some truth mixed in to help disguise it.

 

[BenSkywalker]

OneENG-

&quot;None of todays games have sufficient poly count to make vertex calculation any where near as limiting as fill rate and band width on the video card (on at least a Duron 600 or better).&quot;

TestDrive6- Athlon 550@600(I'd say that would qualify as Duron 600 class) software mode.

320x240 16bit low detail- 33FPS

GF1 @130/301 Det3

All scores 32bit High detail settings

640x480 - 106FPS

800x600 - 91FPS

1024x768 - 64FPS

That's one game that is clearly more limited by vertex data then bandwith. Roughly twice as fast at 1024x768 32bit color high quality settings as 320x240 16bit with all visual options off using software T&amp;L.

16bit T&amp;L numbers in case anyone is wondering-

640x480- 109FPS

800x600- 105FPS

1024x768- 89FPS

1280x960- 67FPS

Don't know why, but the game refuses to run 1280x960 32bit or 1600x1200 16 or 32bit to benchmark, software or hardware. By these numbers it would take about a 1.2GHZ Athlon to run with the GF at the higher resolutions and a ~2GHZ to match the lower resolutions(though not entirely accurate as any OC or Underclocking of the processor results in linear FPS changes as the game code is the bottleneck, not the T&amp;L unit). Perhaps this game would be bandwith limited if it had a 2GHZ Athlon, as it stands for Athlon owners this game is T&amp;L limited even at the lowest possible settings. May only be one example, but you said none

WingnutPEZ-

And Halo may never come out on the PC.&quot;

It has been confirmed that it will be coming to both the PC and the Mac, though I wouldn't count on seeing either of them until a few months after X-Box launches.

 

[Fisher999]

Nvidia has held the 3D crown (Direct 3D and Open GL) for a long time now. 3dfx just can't cut the
mustard anymore. To think when the Voodoo 3 series was released they STILL could only render
in 16 bit color and could not do &quot;AGP texturing&quot;. With the Voodoo 5 we have FSAA but NO T&amp;L. They have been trying to catch up with nVidia but it appears even their aquisition of STB does not seem to have &quot;helped&quot; them. Goodbye 3dfx. LONG LIVE
nVIDIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Michael]

BenSkyWlaker - the most recent issue of PC Gamer listed Test Drive 6 as one of the ten worst games of all time (maybe just the past year, I'd have to look at it).

T&amp;L as a feature is great but there's nothing out right now that has a need for it. I think that MDK2 comes closest.

Michael

 

[BenSkywalker]

Michael



<< BenSkyWlaker - the most recent issue of PC Gamer listed Test Drive 6 as one of the ten worst games of all time (maybe just the past year, I'd have to look at it). >>



I'm confused as to what that has to do with it being vertex limited?? Edit: That sounded poor after I posted it, I brought the game up to refute the none claim, not saying anything about how good the game is, it is a title that has been shipping for quite some time and is in fact vertex limited.

OneEng

You were typing your last while I was typing mine



<< So I agree that the statement 3dfx made even though the symptom they observe is related to where the calculations for T&amp;L take place. >>



They said that CPUs were faster then the GeForce's T&amp;L. They didn't list a set of circumstances, in fact Alf has come on to this board and argued the point with me. They are not limiting it to a certain set of circumstances, they are making blanket statements that CPUs, particularly with the aid of SIMD, are faster then current hardware T&amp;L. They didn't limit it though now they don't have any benches they can point to with the launch of the Det3 drivers concerning higher res/color depth.

 

[SJ]

Yes the Voodoo4 would be good for the mass market gamer. But the mass market gamer isn't smart enough to open up their case and put a V4 in. They will probably have the same video card till they by a new computer which means the majority of the mass market gamers either have an ati or nvidia card. The V4 will be good for those barely smart enough to know how to upgrade and to dumb to know that they shouldn't shop by brand name when it comes to PCs. Each company in the PC industry has a good product from time to time, and others they have a crappy one.

 

[Shudder]

Yeah it might be good for the &quot;mass market&quot; gamer, but how many of the MMG's actually care about 32 bit colour over 16? Unless the game defaults to 32 bit, they'd probably never use it.

And I'm a &quot;3dfx Fan&quot; but I think after looking at the V4's marks it's not worth the money. The only reason I'd pick up a V4 over my V3 is because of 32 bit colour.. And the benchmarks pretty much show why 3Dfx never had 32 bit colour in the V3 lines.. it's slow and can't compete.

 

[Wingznut]

&quot;With the Voodoo 5 we have FSAA but NO T&amp;L. They have been trying to catch up with nVidia &quot;

CompuGeekIAM, I'd love for you to explain to me why I should care about T&amp;L at this point? Because, since there's no significant software that is optimized for T&amp;L, it's pretty much a non-issue for me.

By the time that there will actually be some advantage to having a video card with T&amp;L, that'll be at least a generation or two away.

Don't get me wrong, the nVidia cards are great. Just don't start preaching some useless feature like T&amp;L to me.

 

[P.O.W.]

well I will buy one... (if the price drops to $100 w/ a $30 rebate.)