wow, trickle down sure is working for us middle class americans!!

dannybin1742

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2002
2,335
0
0
NOT!!

this is retarded, tell me again how trickle down has helped the lower 90% of americans?


the tax cuts sure helped those that needed one - the rich

the richest are growing faster than the rich and the rest of americans

incase the article does not work

When F. Scott Fitzgerald pronounced that the very rich "are different from you and me," Ernest Hemingway's famously dismissive response was: "Yes, they have more money." Today he might well add: much, much, much more money.



Not Since the 20's Roared

The Wealthiest Benefit More from Tax Cuts



Where Do You Fit In?
The people at the top of America's money pyramid have so prospered in recent years that they have pulled far ahead of the rest of the population, an analysis of tax records and other government data by The New York Times shows. They have even left behind people making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

Call them the hyper-rich.

They are not just a few Croesus-like rarities. Draw a line under the top 0.1 percent of income earners - the top one-thousandth. Above that line are about 145,000 taxpayers, each with at least $1.6 million in income and often much more.

The average income for the top 0.1 percent was $3 million in 2002, the latest year for which averages are available. That number is two and a half times the $1.2 million, adjusted for inflation, that group reported in 1980. No other income group rose nearly as fast.

The share of the nation's income earned by those in this uppermost category has more than doubled since 1980, to 7.4 percent in 2002. The share of income earned by the rest of the top 10 percent rose far less, and the share earned by the bottom 90 percent fell.

Next, examine the net worth of American households. The group with homes, investments and other assets worth more than $10 million comprised 338,400 households in 2001, the last year for which data are available. The number has grown more than 400 percent since 1980, after adjusting for inflation, while the total number of households has grown only 27 percent.

The Bush administration tax cuts stand to widen the gap between the hyper-rich and the rest of America. The merely rich, making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, will shoulder a disproportionate share of the tax burden.

President Bush said during the third election debate last October that most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. In fact, most - 53 percent - will go to people with incomes in the top 10 percent over the first 15 years of the cuts, which began in 2001 and would have to be reauthorized in 2010. And more than 15 percent will go just to the top 0.1 percent, those 145,000 taxpayers.

The Times set out to create a financial portrait of the very richest Americans, how their incomes have changed over the decades and how the tax cuts will affect them. It is no secret that the gap between the rich and the poor has grown, but the extent to which the richest are leaving everyone else behind is not widely known.

The Treasury Department uses a computer model to examine the effects of tax cuts on various income groups but does not look in detail fine enough to differentiate among those within the top 1 percent. To determine those differences, The Times relied on a computer model based on the Treasury's. Experts at organizations representing a range of views, including the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and Citizens for Tax Justice, reviewed the projections and said they were reasonable, and the Treasury Department said through a spokesman that the model was reliable.

The analysis also found the following:

¶Under the Bush tax cuts, the 400 taxpayers with the highest incomes - a minimum of $87 million in 2000, the last year for which the government will release such data - now pay income, Medicare and Social Security taxes amounting to virtually the same percentage of their incomes as people making $50,000 to $75,000.

¶Those earning more than $10 million a year now pay a lesser share of their income in these taxes than those making $100,000 to $200,000.

¶The alternative minimum tax, created 36 years ago to make sure the very richest paid taxes, takes back a growing share of the tax cuts over time from the majority of families earning $75,000 to $1 million - thousands and even tens of thousands of dollars annually. Far fewer of the very wealthiest will be affected by this tax.

The analysis examined only income reported on tax returns. The Treasury Department says that the very wealthiest find ways, legal and illegal, to shelter a lot of income from taxes. So the gap between the very richest and everyone else is almost certainly much larger.






Where Do You Fit In?
The hyper-rich have emerged in the last three decades as the biggest winners in a remarkable transformation of the American economy characterized by, among other things, the creation of a more global marketplace, new technology and investment spurred partly by tax cuts. The stock market soared; so did pay in the highest ranks of business.

One way to understand the growing gap is to compare earnings increases over time by the vast majority of taxpayers - say, everyone in the lower 90 percent - with those at the top, say, in the uppermost 0.01 percent (now about 14,000 households, each with $5.5 million or more in income last year).

From 1950 to 1970, for example, for every additional dollar earned by the bottom 90 percent, those in the top 0.01 percent earned an additional $162, according to the Times analysis. From 1990 to 2002, for every extra dollar earned by those in the bottom 90 percent, each taxpayer at the top brought in an extra $18,000.

President Ronald Reagan signed tax bills that benefited the wealthiest Americans and also gave tax breaks to the working poor. President Bill Clinton raised income taxes for the wealthiest, cut taxes on investment gains, and expanded breaks for the working poor. Mr. Bush eliminated income taxes for families making under $40,000, but his tax cuts have also benefited the wealthiest Americans far more than his predecessors' did.

The Bush administration says that the tax cuts have actually made the income tax system more progressive, shifting the burden slightly more to those with higher incomes. Still, an Internal Revenue Service study found that the only taxpayers whose share of taxes declined in 2001 and 2002 were those in the top 0.1 percent.

But a Treasury spokesman, Taylor Griffin, said the income tax system is more progressive if the measurement is the share borne by the top 40 percent of Americans rather than the top 0.1 percent.

The Times analysis also shows that over the next decade, the tax cuts Mr. Bush wants to extend indefinitely would shift the burden further from the richest Americans. With incomes of more than $1 million or so, they would get the biggest share of the breaks, in total amounts and in the drop in their share of federal taxes paid.

One reason the merely rich will fare much less well than the very richest is the alternative minimum tax. This tax, the successor to one enacted in 1969 to make sure the wealthiest Americans could not use legal loopholes to live tax-free, has never been adjusted for inflation. As a result, it stings Americans whose incomes have crept above $75,000.

The Times analysis shows that by 2010 the tax will affect more than four-fifths of the people making $100,000 to $500,000 and will take away from them nearly one-half to more than two-thirds of the recent tax cuts. For example, the group making $200,000 to $500,000 a year will lose 70 percent of their tax cut to the alternative minimum tax in 2010, an average of $9,177 for those affected.

But because of the way it is devised, the tax affects far fewer of the very richest: about a third of the taxpayers reporting more than $1 million in income. One big reason is that dividends and investment gains, which go mostly to the richest, are not subject to the tax.

Another reason that the wealthiest will fare much better is that the tax cuts over the past decade have sharply lowered rates on income from investments.

While most economists recognize that the richest are pulling away, they disagree on what this means. Those who contend that the extraordinary accumulation of wealth is a good thing say that while the rich are indeed getting richer, so are most people who work hard and save. They say that the tax cuts encourage the investment and the innovation that will make everyone better off.

"In this income data I see a snapshot of a very innovative society," said Tim Kane, an economist at the Heritage Foundation. "Lower taxes and lower marginal tax rates are leading to more growth. There's an explosion of wealth. We are so wealthy in a world that is profoundly poor."

But some of the wealthiest Americans, including Warren E. Buffett, George Soros and Ted Turner, have warned that such a concentration of wealth can turn a meritocracy into an aristocracy and ultimately stifle economic growth by putting too much of the nation's capital in the hands of inheritors rather than strivers and innovators. Speaking of the increasing concentration of incomes, Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve chairman, warned in Congressional testimony a year ago: "For the democratic society, that is not a very desirable thing to allow it to happen."

Others say most Americans have no problem with this trend. The central question is mobility, said Bruce R. Bartlett, an advocate of lower taxes who served in the Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations. "As long as people think they have a chance of getting to the top, they just don't care how rich the rich are."

But in fact, economic mobility - moving from one income group to another over a lifetime - has actually stopped rising in the United States, researchers say. Some recent studies suggest it has even declined over the last generation.

i hope all that pasted correctly from the NYTIMES
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Cut out whining and go out there and become the next Bill Gates.

I have to say I agree with this.
I want to be upper-class too. I want to make my money work for me, instead of being a wage-slave. I am tired of the rat-race and the older I get, the more inclined I am to stop pissing on the rich and start being one of them. This was further reinforced by my reading various books on the money-making game.

I may even vote republican someday. :Q
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
When have the rich NOT grown richer faster than the middle class?
 

dannybin1742

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2002
2,335
0
0
good to see the two neocons be the in the first three to post,

to address this:

Cut out whining and go out there and become the next Bill Gates.

i'm currently doing a phd in biochem, then its off to medical school or dental school, not sure which one yet.


and this:

When have the rich NOT grown richer faster than the middle class?

when a dem president is elected and running the country, but this won't happen until a voter bill of rights is passed (sad that its come to that); the middle class might start to grow again, but as the article points out, the middle class is shrinking, as the richest get richer, and pay less in taxes

yet another lie

President Bush said during the third election debate last October that most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. In fact, most - 53 percent - will go to people with incomes in the top 10 percent over the first 15 years of the cuts, which began in 2001 and would have to be reauthorized in 2010. And more than 15 percent will go just to the top 0.1 percent, those 145,000 taxpayers

 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: dannybin1742

When have the rich NOT grown richer faster than the middle class?

when a dem president is elected and running the country, but this won't happen until a voter bill of rights is passed (sad that its come to that); the middle class might start to grow again, but as the article points out, the middle class is shrinking, as the richest get richer, and pay less in taxes

If you looked closely, the rich grew faster under Clinton than the middle class. There goes that argument.
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
Originally posted by: dannybin1742
good to see the two neocons be the in the first three to post,

to address this:

Cut out whining and go out there and become the next Bill Gates.

i'm currently doing a phd in biochem, then its off to medical school or dental school, not sure which one yet.


and this:

When have the rich NOT grown richer faster than the middle class?

when a dem president is elected and running the country, but this won't happen until a voter bill of rights is passed (sad that its come to that); the middle class might start to grow again, but as the article points out, the middle class is shrinking, as the richest get richer, and pay less in taxes

yet another lie

President Bush said during the third election debate last October that most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. In fact, most - 53 percent - will go to people with incomes in the top 10 percent over the first 15 years of the cuts, which began in 2001 and would have to be reauthorized in 2010. And more than 15 percent will go just to the top 0.1 percent, those 145,000 taxpayers



do you ever plan to get a job, or are you going to rack up student loans for years to come?
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
I read that article as well. IIRC, the top 400 earners make 8% of the nations income and pay 12% of the gross federal taxes including SS and medicare. So they are paying for more than their share.
 

venk

Banned
Dec 10, 2000
7,449
1
0
I like to quote Rom in cases like this:

"We don't want to stop the exploitation, we want to become the exploiters."
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
3,143
0
0
The problem is that the middle class doesn't provide enough valuable goods or services to the rest of the world. With the advent of outsourcing/automation most middle class citizens are obsolete.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
I read that article as well. IIRC, the top 400 earners make 8% of the nations income and pay 12% of the gross federal taxes including SS and medicare. So they are paying for more than their share.

They have the most to lose from a non-functioning government. So I dont' see what's unfair about making them pay the most taxes.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: Amplifier
The problem is that the middle class doesn't provide enough valuable goods or services to the rest of the world. With the advent of outsourcing/automation most middle class citizens are obsolete.
We are the majority of consumers. ;)
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
Originally posted by: Amplifier
The problem is that the middle class doesn't provide enough valuable goods or services to the rest of the world. With the advent of outsourcing/automation most middle class citizens are obsolete.

The middle-class cant provide because we are getting underbid by folks in malaysia who will work for 5 cents an hour. Thats why I am still mad at the upper-class. God forbid a CEO should only pay himself 1.2 billion instead of 1.4 billion and hire tech-support people who can speak english.

I am pretty sure if I make it to the upper-class I'll do similar selfish things.
 

Amplifier

Banned
Dec 25, 2004
3,143
0
0
Originally posted by: shortylickens
Originally posted by: Amplifier
The problem is that the middle class doesn't provide enough valuable goods or services to the rest of the world. With the advent of outsourcing/automation most middle class citizens are obsolete.

The middle-class cant provide because we are getting underbid by folks in malaysia who will work for 5 cents an hour. Thats why I am still mad at the upper-class. God forbid a CEO should only pay himself 1.2 billion instead of 1.4 billion and hire tech-support people who can speak english.

I am pretty sure if I make it to the upper-class I'll do similar selfish things.

As her209 said, the middle class makes up the majority of the consumers. Now if the middle class as a whole cared about outsoursing they would buy from a company that uses American tech support workers.

And with their combined purchasing power all those malaysia tech support workers would go out of business. But we all know that's not happening...

 

ValuedCustomer

Senior member
May 5, 2004
759
0
0
q: who are "the rich"?
a: the folks who provide: goods, services and jobs

q: raise taxes on "the rich" and what happens?
a: the prices of goods & services are raised and jobs are eliminated

q: why?
a: because "the rich" have a lifestyle they are accustomed to and rather than disturb that (take a pay-cut in lifestyle) they?ll pass their potential loss on to you.. and me (we pay for their loss)


It's real simple math, rich people will stay rich b/c they have the means and mechanisms to do so. Raising taxes on anyone much less the rich is bad for everyone.. except the rich. --- anyone arguing the validity of this equation is an idiot


 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Cut out whining and go out there and become the next Bill Gates.

How about we raise your taxes and lower the rich to make it all even, just like you like. How about we do it to us all....and give the rich a big fat tax break. You all seem to be suggesting that.

How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board. Who cares what the rate is as long as WE ALL pay the same. No breaks what so ever. You seem to suggest this all the time, so might as well make it real.

 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: nergee
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................

Whatever it took to balance the money going out. Balance it all. Others seem to think it will pull in spending, why not. Hell, let's place it all, EVERYONE, from the poorest to the richest, all at ONE rate. If we run a deficit in one year, raise next years taxes to cover it. Let's see how many of the war wishers and tax breakers really like that stuff if they have to PAY for it, now?

 

ValuedCustomer

Senior member
May 5, 2004
759
0
0
Originally posted by: nergee
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................

At one point wasn't Jerry Brown talking about a "12%" flat-tax? - not that JB is anything but a dimwit (albeit in an endering way :p) but like a broken clock being correct 2x a day, I think he was on to something.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer
Originally posted by: nergee
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................

At one point wasn't Jerry Brown talking about a "12%" flat-tax? - not that JB is anything but a dimwit (albeit in an endering way :p) but like a broken clock being correct 2x a day, I think he was on to something.

If anyone thinks that we can run the country on 12% flat tax, they have another thing coming. GDP of around 12 Trillion with a 2.5 trillion budget. 12% aint going to cut it. How about 20+ % federal for starters. Might as well throw in state tax there too. City tax doesn't matter as most of them are flat anyway.

 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
Since our current tax methods use ranges of income and assign a tax specific tax rate to it, wouldn't say a 20%
flat tax actually raise low income earners while lowering the tax bill for people in the high end? Certain provisions
would have to be implemented therefore complicating even a simple flat tax system.........
 

Helenihi

Senior member
Dec 25, 2001
379
0
0
Originally posted by: dannybin1742
good to see the two neocons be the in the first three to post,

to address this:

Cut out whining and go out there and become the next Bill Gates.

i'm currently doing a phd in biochem, then its off to medical school or dental school, not sure which one yet.


and this:

When have the rich NOT grown richer faster than the middle class?

when a dem president is elected and running the country, but this won't happen until a voter bill of rights is passed (sad that its come to that); the middle class might start to grow again, but as the article points out, the middle class is shrinking, as the richest get richer, and pay less in taxes

yet another lie

President Bush said during the third election debate last October that most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. In fact, most - 53 percent - will go to people with incomes in the top 10 percent over the first 15 years of the cuts, which began in 2001 and would have to be reauthorized in 2010. And more than 15 percent will go just to the top 0.1 percent, those 145,000 taxpayers

How delusional are you? The exact same thing happened during the Clinton years, and every democrat president we've ever had?


And in absolute terms, yes of course the rich got more of a tax break, THEY MAKE MORE MONEY, if you give them a tax break its going to be bigger than it is for people with smaller incomes. And when there are tax increase, guess what, THE RICH PAY WAY MORE THAN THE POOR. Changes in the tax rate will always be amplified for those at the upper end when talking in absolute terms.

In percentage terms, the rich did see the smallest tax cut. the lowest tax bracket saw a reduction of 33%, the rich only saw a reduction of about 5%.
 

ValuedCustomer

Senior member
May 5, 2004
759
0
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer
Originally posted by: nergee
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................

At one point wasn't Jerry Brown talking about a "12%" flat-tax? - not that JB is anything but a dimwit (albeit in an endearing way :p) but like a broken clock being correct 2x a day, I think he was on to something.

If anyone thinks that we can run the country on 12% flat tax, they have another thing coming. GDP of around 12 Trillion with a 2.5 trillion budget. 12% aint going to cut it. How about 20+ % federal for starters. Might as well throw in state tax there too. City tax doesn't matter as most of them are flat anyway.

Good grief! consider yourself brainwashed.. if the gov would be forced (like say in a flat-tax atmosphere) to budget their money like, well, like the taxpayers! they could do just dandy w/ 1/2 of the current allocation. For gawd's sake, how many friggin' "$120 hammers", ?$500 toilet seats?, foreign subsidies and multimillion/billion dollar special project funding for poli?s pet-programs (PORK!) do you have to be aware of before you begin to put 2 & 2 together and realize?? -- look at it this way, it'd ear-mark the (our!) money for lots of other essentials rather than war campaigns.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: ValuedCustomer
Originally posted by: nergee
"How about a flat tax ACROSS the fvcking board."

What would be a fair flat tax rate?.................

At one point wasn't Jerry Brown talking about a "12%" flat-tax? - not that JB is anything but a dimwit (albeit in an endearing way :p) but like a broken clock being correct 2x a day, I think he was on to something.

If anyone thinks that we can run the country on 12% flat tax, they have another thing coming. GDP of around 12 Trillion with a 2.5 trillion budget. 12% aint going to cut it. How about 20+ % federal for starters. Might as well throw in state tax there too. City tax doesn't matter as most of them are flat anyway.

Good grief! consider yourself brainwashed.. if the gov would be forced (like say in a flat-tax atmosphere) to budget their money like, well, like the taxpayers! they could do just dandy w/ 1/2 of the current allocation. For gawd's sake, how many friggin' "$120 hammers", ?$500 toilet seats?, foreign subsidies and multimillion/billion dollar special project funding for poli?s pet-programs (PORK!) do you have to be aware of before you begin to put 2 & 2 together and realize?? -- look at it this way, it'd ear-mark the (our!) money for lots of other essentials rather than war campaigns.


I'm not brainwashed, I'm just a sarcastic, pissed off asshole today!