Wow...just wow. (Added onboard video link)

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
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Text

Lewis Hamilton has had his Belgian Grand Prix victory overturned by the stewards, handing the win to title rival Felipe Massa, who finished second on the road.

Hamilton was given a 25-second penalty for cutting the Bus Stop chicane during his wheel-to-wheel battle for the lead with Kimi Raikkonen during the closing laps.

Although the McLaren driver appeared to lift off and was repassed by Raikkonen on the exit of the corner, the stewards ruled that he had gained an advantage by short-cutting the circuit.

"The stewards, having received a report from the race director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have...determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to," said an FIA statement.

Hamilton was deemed to have "cut the chicane and gained an advantage", thereby breaching Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.

With 25 seconds added to his race time, Hamilton has dropped to third in the classification behind BMW Sauber?s Nick Heidfeld.

The decision brings about a six-point swing in Massa's favour in the championship standings, reducing Hamilton's lead from eight to two points.

Raikkonen crashed out of the race on the penultimate lap and is now 19 points behind Hamilton with five rounds remaining.


Revised Belgian Grand Prix result


1. MASSA Ferrari
2. HEIDFELD BMW
3. HAMILTON McLaren*
4. ALONSO Renault
5. VETTEL Toro Rosso
6. KUBICA BMW
7. BOURDAIS Toro Rosso
8. WEBBER Red Bull
9. GLOCK Toyota*
10. KOVALAINEN McLaren
11. COULTHARD Red Bull
12. ROSBERG Williams
13. SUTIL Force India
14. NAKAJIMA Williams
15. BUTTON Honda
16. TRULLI Toyota
17. FISICHELLA Force India
R. RAIKKONEN Ferrari
R. BARRICHELLO Honda
R. PIQUET Renault

*25-second time penalty

Unbelievable...

If this ruling stands it will hurt the sport of Formula One IMO. I watched that race and I've seen this kind of thing happen a number of times where a driver is forced to shortcut a chicane to avoid an accident, the driver has to give up the position so that he doesn't gain an unfair advantage, which Hamilton did. This just doesn't sit well with me at all.

One of the best races of the season has been tarnished.

Edit-Now with link to onboard video.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
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The 2 regs cited as violated (below) actually do not say anything about giving the position back. That is not, as far as I can tell, part of the regulations. People always cite it, but in fact, the regs do not say that if you give the position back, you will not suffer a penalty.

30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
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Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The 2 regs cited as violated (below) actually do not say anything about giving the position back. That is not, as far as I can tell, part of the regulations. People always cite it, but in fact, the regs do not say that if you give the position back, you will not suffer a penalty.

30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race.

Okay, then tell me why other drivers aren't cited when this happens and they give up the position...and it does happen quite often.
 

JasonSix78

Platinum Member
Mar 5, 2005
2,020
1
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Like I said in the racing series thread, taking away the win from Hamilton is complete BS. Raikkonen deliberately forced Hamilton off, it's as clear as day from Raikkonen's racing line through the bus stop. Hamilton did what he had to do to avoid colliding with Raikkonen and keeping himself in a position to win.

 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
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Okay, then tell me why other drivers aren't cited when this happens and they give up the position...and it does happen quite often.

Because it is the judgement call of human beings and is, by nature, inconsistent?

People always cite that as if it's the rule, and it simply isn't. I was really just pointing that out.

They automatically exclaim "He gave the spot back!", when it really doesn't mean anything in the rulebook.

The rulebook does not say that the punishment for making a pass off-track is that you have to slow down and give the position back.

I actually watched the race and I cannot even recall seeing the incident that got Hamilton the punishement.



 

GoatMonkey

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,253
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I think the argument of the stewards is that the shortcutted section allowed him to carry more momentum into the next corner somehow. It doesn't really make much sense. But that next corner is where he passed Raikkonen for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXVT4CO6ALM

Lewis got the shaft, but he'll probably take the title anyway.

I hate seeing problems like this on my favorite track.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
126
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Okay, then tell me why other drivers aren't cited when this happens and they give up the position...and it does happen quite often.

Because it is the judgement call of human beings and is, by nature, inconsistent?

People always cite that as if it's the rule, and it simply isn't. I was really just pointing that out.

They automatically exclaim "He gave the spot back!", when it really doesn't mean anything in the rulebook.

The rulebook does not say that the punishment for making a pass off-track is that you have to slow down and give the position back.

I actually watched the race and I cannot even recall seeing the incident that got Hamilton the punishement.

It was on the second to last lap right before the rain started as they were coming up to the bus stop chicane. Hamilton had closed up to Raikkonen and got alongside Raikkonen as they came up to the chicane in an attempt to pass. Raikkonen had a slight lockup and pushed Hamilton all the way out to the curb forcing him to short cut the chicane. Hamilton then slowed and let Raikkonen past and immediately got on his rear wing where he was able to out brake him into the first turn. It was a brilliant bit of driving.

Again, I've seen this happen many many times over the years and can't recall ANYONE ever being punished by the stewards during a race for it as long as they let the guy who got passed back into the spot. It happened in Canada this year IIRC...although, I can't remember who the drivers were who were involved.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
126
Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
I think the argument of the stewards is that the shortcutted section allowed him to carry more momentum into the next corner somehow. It doesn't really make much sense. But that next corner is where he passed Raikkonen for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXVT4CO6ALM

Lewis got the shaft, but he'll probably take the title anyway.

I hate seeing problems like this on my favorite track.

Me either. I love Spa, it is the best track on the calendar.

According to telemetry released by McLaren they show that Hamilton was going 6kph slower than Raikkonen as they crossed the start finish line. I don't see how he could have been carrying more momentum if he was going slower and in fact let Raikkonen pass him on the lead up to the first turn.
 

punjabiplaya

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2006
3,495
1
71
I think it's BS. I'm a Ferrari fan and a Lewis fan (it makes no sense). However, if Lewis gets the title, which I think he will, it will just prove that he's that much of a better driver. But either way, after the snoozefest of Valencia, that was an amazing race.
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
Wow, this is BS. I remember during this year's laguna seca race in MotoGP, rossi went off track at the corkscrew during his battle with stoner. I guess it wouldn't have mattered anyway since stoner...


**SPOILER**














crashed out anyway









*end spoiler*

 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,576
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This article is interesting.

Perhaps the stewards think that pulling right in behind Raikkonnen, into his draft, was an advantage that Hamilton would not have had if he did not cut the chicane.

Is Hamilton in a better position relative to Kimi after letting him by?

I still have not managed to see the incident.

I take it that Hamilton was on the outside, and in a bad position relative to Kimi, coming up to the chicane?

"'Although he clearly hands back the lead to Kimi as they cross the start/finish line and the timing sheets show you that Kimi clearly crossed the line first, he is on him immediately afterwards. And this is the nub of the stewards' argument,' wrote Allen."

I think Hamilton pulling right into Kimi's draft has got to be what bothered the stewards.

But again, it's all speculation and as the article says, Lewis could have stopped dead and it wouldn't necessarily have made any difference under the rules.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story...4,3213_4117803,00.html

I'm not sure they can appeal, but if they do it ought to be interesting.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,580
982
126
Originally posted by: LTC8K6
This article is interesting.

Perhaps the stewards think that pulling right in behind Raikkonnen, into his draft, was an advantage that Hamilton would not have had if he did not cut the chicane.

Is Hamilton in a better position relative to Kimi after letting him by?

I still have not managed to see the incident.

I take it that Hamilton was on the outside, and in a bad position relative to Kimi, coming up to the chicane?

"'Although he clearly hands back the lead to Kimi as they cross the start/finish line and the timing sheets show you that Kimi clearly crossed the line first, he is on him immediately afterwards. And this is the nub of the stewards' argument,' wrote Allen."

I think Hamilton pulling right into Kimi's draft has got to be what bothered the stewards.

But again, it's all speculation and as the article says, Lewis could have stopped dead and it wouldn't necessarily have made any difference under the rules.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story...4,3213_4117803,00.html

I'm not sure they can appeal, but if they do it ought to be interesting.

So their solution is to hand the victory to a guy who was soundly beaten all day long? :confused:

It was a fucking bullshit call and I don't agree with it.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
how does red bull manage to afford 2 F1 teams?


and how did nascar manage to make running a cup team as expensive as an F1 team?
 

RiDE

Platinum Member
Jul 8, 2004
2,139
0
76
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how does red bull manage to afford 2 F1 teams?

Somebody asked Red Bull that question a couple years ago and they compared their budget to an olympic sized pool. Now imagine a hole the size of a quarter on the bottom. The water being drained is comparable to how much their F1 team is spending. lol
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
Originally posted by: RiDE
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how does red bull manage to afford 2 F1 teams?

Somebody asked Red Bull that question a couple years ago and they compared their budget to an olympic sized pool. Now imagine a hole the size of a quarter on the bottom. The water being drained is comparable to how much their F1 team is spending. lol

They got a whole lot of quarter sized holes considering they have a team in everythign.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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in the stewards' judgement, hamilton did not sufficiently cede the advantage gained by cutting the track at the bus stop. when i saw it, i thought he should have backed off more. it took a while for him to pull behind the ferrari, and he immediately mounted another attack.

here is the on-board footage from both drivers. note how long it takes raikkonen to even appear in hamilton's camera upon leaving the bus stop. hamilton is accelerating at near-maximum, rather than maximum. the distance ceded to raikkonen is less than a car-length when the pass is made at la source.

many people are trying to find fault with raikkonen at several points:

bus stop, lap 41 - the line was his to take, no doubt.
to make matters uglier, hamilton is crying about his signature move being used against him.
Text
"I left him enough room, yet he picked up more pace going into the corner, and drove me as wide as he possibly could," said Hamilton, referring to the moment before he cut the Bus Stop chicane.

pouhon, lap 42 - both drivers slide wide through turns 10 and 11. hamilton re-enters the track sooner, raikkonen stays wide to avoid the treacherous paint. no advantage is gained by raikkonen staying wide. on lap 43, raikkonen again goes wide, this time re-entering the track sooner, and loses the car on the paint.

turn 12, lap 42 - nico rosberg spins, bringing out a local yellow. rosberg re-enters the track just ahead of the leaders, they themselves just getting on track and at speed. hamilton evades by going off track. raikkonen remains on track, and passes hamilton. the pass is entirely legal.

if there's something raikkonen should be penalized for, it's the awkward defensive double-move coming into la source. nico rosberg should be penalized for the unsafe re-entry at turn 12.

if the positions were reversed, people would say "ferrari got what they deserved." if it were any other cars, popular opinion would be "it's a shame the race isn't decided on the track, but who cares for those two anyway?"

regarding hamilton's penalty:
Text
16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver's next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.

i'll argue hamilton got the lesser of the two possible penalties. the 25s penalty leaves hamilton with 6 points from spa, and a good chance of a win, and 10 points, at monza. had he received the win and a 10 grid spot penalty at monza, he'd need to finish third to equal the points total, after starting eleventh at best.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
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What do you expect when the F1 administration is run by Ferrari fans and racists? It's starting to feel like some people don't want a McLaren Champion and much less a black one. Yeah, I said it. It's really starting to feel that way.

:|

Lewis won that fair and square. The result should have stood.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Kelvrick
Originally posted by: RiDE
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how does red bull manage to afford 2 F1 teams?

Somebody asked Red Bull that question a couple years ago and they compared their budget to an olympic sized pool. Now imagine a hole the size of a quarter on the bottom. The water being drained is comparable to how much their F1 team is spending. lol

They got a whole lot of quarter sized holes considering they have a team in everythign.

who the hell drinks that much red bull? honestly, it's like they are a mint, with endless amounts of money for promotion.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
What do you expect when the F1 administration is run by Ferrari fans and racists? It's starting to feel like some people don't want a McLaren Champion and much less a black one. Yeah, I said it. It's really starting to feel that way.

:|

Lewis won that fair and square. The result should have stood.

racist? the stewards were a belgian, an indian and a kenyan. nice try, though.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
What do you expect when the F1 administration is run by Ferrari fans and racists? It's starting to feel like some people don't want a McLaren Champion and much less a black one. Yeah, I said it. It's really starting to feel that way.

:|

Lewis won that fair and square. The result should have stood.

racist? the stewards were a belgian, an indian and a kenyan. nice try, though.

I'm not talking about the Stewards. I am referring to the administration.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
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My ire is mostly in light of the Valencia decision. Felipe Massa and Ferrari were convicted of unsafe release from the pit stop (an offence which normally attracts a drive-through penalty) and yet were merely fined while Massa kept the 10 points. When it comes to a less dangerous act, and when the driver made attempts to rectify the situation, the penalty appears vastly disproportionate to the 'crime'.

Ferrari get a fine. McLaren get docked points and the driver is also affected, losing points. The administration has not got it's shit in order. It's one rule for Ferrari and a completely different set for McLaren and Lewis.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
My ire is mostly in light of the Valencia decision. Felipe Massa and Ferrari were convicted of unsafe release from the pit stop (an offence which normally attracts a drive-through penalty) and yet were merely fined while Massa kept the 10 points. When it comes to a less dangerous act, and when the driver made attempts to rectify the situation, the penalty appears vastly disproportionate to the 'crime'.

Ferrari get a fine. McLaren get docked points and the driver is also affected, losing points. The administration has not got it's shit in order. It's one rule for Ferrari and a completely different set for McLaren and Lewis.

oh, you're referring to "the red car rule." unfortunately, it is a fact of life. formula one would cease to exist without ferrari, and both of them know this.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Fuck Ferrari. I do not believe they are the be-all and end-all of F1. I would welcome their departure. Great teams like Williams, Red Bull, Torro Rosso and even Force India would all flourish in the vacuum.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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ok, let's take ferrari out of the equation. most races lose money, in the millions, as it is. half of the people paying admission are ferrari fans. nowadays, most of the money comes from tv rights. good luck getting top dollar for that without half the market, and a fraction of the "mystique." what's good for ferrari is good for formula one, and by that i mean "good for bernie's pocket"

that little fucker charges so much for a race, soon only the middle east and asia will have races. everyone wants f1 back here in the states, but indianapolis (tony george and family) won't pay bernie's price. the premier sponsors want it so bad, they're willing to cover the difference, but andy warhol will have nothing to do with it.