WoW Expansion Shrinks Raids, Current Raiders Whine

[DirthNader]

I quit WoW for good some time ago, but I still love to read their forums - nothing like a train wreck. After reading the same complaints for over a year, I was surprised to see them whining over something different.

Seems a number of gaming sites have reported that raids in the upcoming expansion will be capped at 25 players, and not 40. CM's on the forums have confirmed the news. Immense levels of whining and "the sky is falling" ensue. The non-raiding playerbase is having a ball by essentially throwing back the taunts of the raiders that spewed out their when the player cap on non-raid instances was lowered.

Part of me thinks it's just plain hilarious. Players giving doomsday predictions of the end of their "close-knit" guilds of 40+ players. The end is nigh! On the other hand, it fascinates me. After dealing with SOE's scattershot "balances" to SWG for two years (beta to original Combat "Upgrade"), Blizzard struck me as very methodical in their changes.

Piecing together various comments, Blizzard has essentially admitted that the majority of the playerbase isn't progressing through the current raiding endgame. When I played, the 40 man thing was a huge obstacle to my medium sized adult guild. We could get things going for the 20 mans, but 40 was too much. It didn't help that the 20 mans were more like sideshows to the linear progression of the 40 mans. The guild disbanded as core members went to "greener" pastures - namely the handful of established raiding guilds on the server.

There's a decent number of WoW players or former players here - what do you all think?

 

[Tremulant]

I think that'll be an improvement.

I stopped playing because I couldn't fit raiding into my schedule, and whenever I could, we were always waiting on people.

 

[erikistired]

the guild i was in before i quit was absorbed into another guild so that they had enough people to do the 40 mans, and we were easily 50-60 strong. a lot of people quit the game or quit the server, and it went from 6 or so power guilds to 1-2. i'd imagine that was at least one factor in lowering the raid cap. and yeah, the 20 man raids were lacking, so hopefully this will strike a fair balance.

 

[NYHoustonman]

The guild my first character, a Warrior, was in, was large enough for raids, but I stopped playing that character due to boredom.

My second character, a Druid, I had a lot more fun with, and managed to start a guild with ~20 level 60's, ~35 50+, most of whom were in the guild from ~level 20 or earlier. We were a tight group. This would have been great for me a few months ago before I stopped playing again. As it stands, I wasn't playing and members were dropping like flies going to large guilds (much like your situation), so the guild died.

I know it may be a pain for those who are in the bigger guilds, but for the majority of us I think this patch is very good.

 

[cKGunslinger]

This is exactly what many, many "casual" WoW players asked for. I see this as a good thing, although there is the potential that WoW is dumbing down even more. If they eventually get to the lowest common demoninator, they may lose a bit too many of their "regular" customers to other, more mature MMORPGs (if those are ever made.)

And yikes, those forums are ridiculous. I mean, I hang out in our servers forum once in a while, but those people.. Some of them sound near-suicidal/homocidal in their posts about this change.


Anyway, I want to see some 2-man caps on some instances - that way my entire guild can participate! :laugh:

 

[Noema]

I think it's a good thing. I always thought 40 man raids were too much. Whenever we used to raid MC, we usually had to wait at least 30 minutes to fill the available slots because people wouldn't show up. I know this is not a problem for the uberguilds but for the rest of the population, 25 is more reasonable. Plus it allows a bit more individual contribution. With 40 man raids, unless you were main tank you could get away with slacking off while killing stuff. Most people would just alt-tab and watch p0rn while killing trash mobs. And hopefully hybrids will be allowed to shine more instead of being relegated to second-rate healbots.

 

[DirthNader]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
This is exactly what many, many "casual" WoW players asked for. I see this as a good thing, although there is the potential that WoW is dumbing down even more. If they eventually get to the lowest common demoninator, they may lose a bit too many of their "regular" customers to other, more mature MMORPGs (if those are ever made.)

I see the lowered caps in the opposite light. I think it will hurt the lowest common denominator. Those players thrive on the fact that filling a current 40-man raid requires the lowering of standards. That was what finally did my old guild in - we became less selective about members because we were determined to fill 40 slots, and it was all (steeply) downhill from there.

And yes, those forums are a train wreck. I can't help but read them once in a while, even though I have absolutely no intention of going back.

 

[Genx87]

I think Raid based MMORPGs suck in general. Even capping the size at 25 is ridiculous imo.

I am also curious if they have started to see a falloff in subscriptions to get this ball rolling.

 

[rivan]

I quit WoW after playing two characters to 60 - one on each side. I might have stuck around a little longer at the end if my second character hadn't been a shaman, which I really found at end game, despite excellent flexibility, all I was to do was chain-heal while in even 10-mans.

I made it to MC exactly once - it was deemed a privelege that I be allowed to clear trash mobs preceding that night's full run. Meh. The 40 mans raids never fit into my new-father schedule, as they always seemed to start at prime time.

When I cancelled, they asked me why I was quitting, and when told the only response I got was that they were upgrading the goodies found in the 10-man raids... whooptee!

 

[CKent]

I think it'll help some guilds and hurt others. What's funny is that most players think they'll now be able to do end-game raids much the same way they do UBRS. In reality, I don't see the current MO changing; all new content is basically released for the top 1% of players. Look what it's done for WoW - their subscription numbers just keep exploding. I agree with a previous poster that raidfest MMOGs suck; it's what EQ turned into and it's why I quit that game. Unfortunately, WoW is the best of what's out there. Now that MMORPGs are big business, the big companies eat them up and force them to appeal to the unwashed, drooling masses to maximize profit (don't mention EVE, while it's great what they've done, I prefer fantasy to sci-fi and open pvp is a dealbreaker for me, so it isn't an option). Raidfests are the future of the genre. Again, look what it's done for WoW. Why change something so profitable?

 

[DirthNader]

I do agree that the game's endgame content will continue to be rather exclusive through this. There's still the obstacle of devoting large chunks of scheduled time to a video game. That's something a lot (dare I say most) are unwilling or unable to give.

The size of raids was one of the two reasons I quit. The other being the above mentioned large blocks of scheduled time. I can't see them changing that without a huge change in philosophy, namely creating a few challenging trash pulls in instances rather than the morass of mindless pulls one has to wade through even in low-level instances.

EDIT: I do think they're trying to reign in the raidfest that Tigole has created. I think the success of the game is due in large part to the great, very flexible 1-60 progression. As the players mature, and hit the raid wall, they quit. Most of the twenty and thirtysomething guys I know have played WoW, and every one has quit.

 

[Smilin]

I find this to be great news!


I had planned on giving WoW another shot when the expansion hits and having a great change like this in place makes me look forward to it.


I quit playing because:
1. End game content turned into a major grind with no progress (or enjoyment).
2. I don't want to do 40-man raids... I have a life and sh1t to do.
3. My favorate toon, a Rogue, had effectively been nerfed by patch after patch of buffing other classes.


This will obviously piss off some hardcore guild/raid nazis but WoW didn't get to 5 million subscribers by appealing only to the hardcore.

 

[TheVrolok]

I think this change in Blizzard thinking is going to be the end of WoW. Yes, the more casual players and casual guilds may not be able to easily fill a 40 man raid; there are many guilds that can and do. You get out of the game what you put in, it makes no sense to give players that play an hour every 2 days the same gear that players who play 5 hours a day get. Many casual players/guilds are cheering this announcement but I don't quite understand why. Blizzard has already said that these 25 mans instances will be HARDER than the current high-end 40 man, Naxx. So that means that the 25 man instances will require the same, if not more, time farming mats for pots/resistance gear/etc., learning strats, and wiping. Casuals aren't going to haven't had the time to put in hours farming pots/getting ready for end game content, what makes them think they will if you only need 25 members? It's a misconception that end game raiding is about filling a raid with 40 people and not about the time/effort that goes into preparing. I think this false idea comes from the fact that the casual guilds now have no problems clearing MC and even BWL once they get 40 online, I also hear people complain that it's just boring and people can slack, etc. - that this won't happen with 25. What the casuals aren't realizing/admitting is that the reason they are bored, the reason that they can slack off, is because they got all the MC strats off the web/from other people, they weren't sitting there wiping to Lucifron a couple times when they had no idea what was going on. The major guilds put a lot into the WoW community with their own forums/mod sites/etc.. (look at Curse-Gaming for example), and Blizz is now asking those guilds to boot just shy of 40% of their membership. I see these guilds taking a hike and leaving the community without much of its driving force.

 

[secretanchitman]

anything above 30 IMO is too much. 25 is just right.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think this change in Blizzard thinking is going to be the end of WoW. Yes, the more casual players and casual guilds may not be able to easily fill a 40 man raid; there are many guilds that can and do. You get out of the game what you put in, it makes no sense to give players that play an hour every 2 days the same gear that players who play 5 hours a day get.

Many casual players/guilds are cheering this announcement but I don't quite understand why. Blizzard has already said that these 25 mans instances will be HARDER than the current high-end 40 man, Naxx. So that means that the 25 man instances will require the same, if not more, time farming mats for pots/resistance gear/etc., learning strats, and wiping. Casuals aren't going to haven't had the time to put in hours farming pots/getting ready for end game content, what makes them think they will if you only need 25 members?

It's a misconception that end game raiding is about filling a raid with 40 people and not about the time/effort that goes into preparing. I think this false idea comes from the fact that the casual guilds now have no problems clearing MC and even BWL once they get 40 online, I also hear people complain that it's just boring and people can slack, etc. - that this won't happen with 25. What the casuals aren't realizing/admitting is that the reason they are bored, the reason that they can slack off, is because they got all the MC strats off the web/from other people, they weren't sitting there wiping to Lucifron a couple times when they had no idea what was going on.

The major guilds put a lot into the WoW community with their own forums/mod sites/etc.. (look at Curse-Gaming for example), and Blizz is now asking those guilds to boot just shy of 40% of their membership. I see these guilds taking a hike and leaving the community without much of its driving force.

I'm going to lend you my Axe of Carriage Return. It has +15 to Coherency!

 

[Smilin]

I think when bliz says it will get harder they mean on a per-person basis. Think more like Dire Maul - that place can be as tough on a 5man team as MC would be with a 40man.
You're not going to get a 25man team to complete a 40man raid. They will make changes to the difficulty.

I also don't see how this change is asking guilds to boot 40% of their membership. WTF does that have to do with anything? Isn't blizzard in a way asking them to boost membership by 20% and send two raids in at once?

People doing the hardcore blow-a-weekend raids are addicts. As with all addicts if you F!#$ with their drugs they'll get upset. Addiction is also the reason why I think the big guilds will NOT be taking a hike.

I see this as a positive move by blizz. Unfortunately it is compensating for two big weaknesses: 1. End game content gets pretty thin and repetitive. 2. There is no effective method outside a guild chat/3rd party website to get a 40man built.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Smilin
I think when bliz says it will get harder they mean on a per-person basis. Think more like Dire Maul - that place can be as tough on a 5man team as MC would be with a 40man.
You're not going to get a 25man team to complete a 40man raid. They will make changes to the difficulty.

I also don't see how this change is asking guilds to boot 40% of their membership. WTF does that have to do with anything? Isn't blizzard in a way asking them to boost membership by 20% and send two raids in at once?

People doing the hardcore blow-a-weekend raids are addicts. As with all addicts if you F!#$ with their drugs they'll get upset. Addiction is also the reason why I think the big guilds will NOT be taking a hike.

I see this as a positive move by blizz. Unfortunately it is compensating for two big weaknesses: 1. End game content gets pretty thin and repetitive. 2. There is no effective method outside a guild chat/3rd party website to get a 40man built.

I agree.

And as far as party-organization goes, I really wish Blizzard would implement some AH-like interface where players could list/browse instance groups. Have the instance, the list of current party members (name + guild), the list of required players, and a short description of loot rules, quests done, etc.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
I think this change in Blizzard thinking is going to be the end of WoW. Yes, the more casual players and casual guilds may not be able to easily fill a 40 man raid; there are many guilds that can and do. You get out of the game what you put in, it makes no sense to give players that play an hour every 2 days the same gear that players who play 5 hours a day get.

Many casual players/guilds are cheering this announcement but I don't quite understand why. Blizzard has already said that these 25 mans instances will be HARDER than the current high-end 40 man, Naxx. So that means that the 25 man instances will require the same, if not more, time farming mats for pots/resistance gear/etc., learning strats, and wiping. Casuals aren't going to haven't had the time to put in hours farming pots/getting ready for end game content, what makes them think they will if you only need 25 members?

It's a misconception that end game raiding is about filling a raid with 40 people and not about the time/effort that goes into preparing. I think this false idea comes from the fact that the casual guilds now have no problems clearing MC and even BWL once they get 40 online, I also hear people complain that it's just boring and people can slack, etc. - that this won't happen with 25. What the casuals aren't realizing/admitting is that the reason they are bored, the reason that they can slack off, is because they got all the MC strats off the web/from other people, they weren't sitting there wiping to Lucifron a couple times when they had no idea what was going on.

The major guilds put a lot into the WoW community with their own forums/mod sites/etc.. (look at Curse-Gaming for example), and Blizz is now asking those guilds to boot just shy of 40% of their membership. I see these guilds taking a hike and leaving the community without much of its driving force.

I'm going to lend you my Axe of Carriage Return. It has +15 to Coherency!

Didn't plan on writing so much, was typing and watching TV and then.. wall of text.

 

[DannyLove]

How different is WoW raiding with DAoC raiding? I remember back in my DAoC days we organized 100+ raids to defeat the Dragon or over in the Sidi Tower.
If anything, a raiding cap would make things a bit more challenging, less laggy, and more enjoyable.

 

[Boze]

Well...

I think the move to 25 player raids vice 40 player raids will have the following effects:
1. Uberguilds will either consolidate their playerbases to the minimum needed to be effective (i.e., See yah slackers! and See yah people not quite good enough! and See yah people who log in every 3rd day!)
2. Casual guilds will become incredibly frustrated when they wipe 50 times on the first or second boss in the endgame 25 man expansions because they can't: A. Afford the consumables (Flasks, etc.) that Blizzard has said will be necessary. B. Don't have the proper gear because they can't spend the time farming the 10 or 15 man instances for the step-up in power to tackle the 25 man raid areas.
3. Casual guilds will become incredibly frustrated when they lose members to the uberguild who has a spot or two for <Insert class here> and your casual "buddy" leaves because he's really a hardcore player in casual's clothing.
4. Uberguilds will break into two "teams" and run two seperate raids by recruiting 10 to 20 more dedicated players. Chances are on this one though, that the team that is not "quite" as good as Team Awesome gets frustrated and splits to make their own guild anyway.

In other words, all Blizzard is really doing is changing the scale on which people raid. That's it.

Casual players will still be casual players and still whine about overpowered, epic-decked out hardcore gamers. They'll do that because what makes a casual player anyway? In these games, time investment... that's it. Casuals can't devote the time to farming herbs for making Flask every Naxxramas attempt, they can't devote the time to farming for Nature resistance gear for Princess Cockblock, I mean Huhuran in Temple of Ahn'Qiraj. They can't spend the time farming for fire resistance for Ragnaros.

While one day, the casual player guilds might eventually claw their way through The Black Citadel and kill Illidan or who the heck ever is Top Dog in the expansion, the hardcore players will have done it a year earlier, and the only reason the casuals will be able to do it then is because of newer, tougher dungeons that are 5 or 10 mannable that gave them the gear edge they needed in the first place.

Nothing is changing except scale... people only think it is. I hate to burst a lot of players' bubbles here, but even Blizzard Community Managers and Developers have admitted that endgame 25 man dungeons will be more difficult than Naxxramas... Naxxramas people, the current endgame dungeon that only a fraction of the 6 million players can put a dent into. It takes so much to be at the top of the game in WOW. You have to spend time farming gear and consumables, spend time wiping learning the trash, spend time wiping learning the bosses, possibly spend time studying other people's video and strats... its all one huge timesink and the casual players don't realize that.

This change won't suddenly make casual players uber awesome players able to defeat every challenge thrown before them... what it *will* do... it will make it so they can get together a group and start *learning* the challenges... and then after the 10 million wipes, realizing they're going to need to farm for consumables and spend time learning the challenge... a very real and significant amount of time, if the statement "harder than Naxxramas" proves to be true.

Sorry to be so blunt and "elitist" about this, but going off what's coming outta the horse's mouth... that's about the summary of how things are going to be. Everyone will have access to the content... as always though, only a handful will be able to beat it.

 

[CKent]

Totally agree Boze. This sort of crap is why I quit EQ and it's going to cause me to quit WoW as well, at some point. I actually do play a lot, but I'd rather have options available other than raiding, and I'd like to see new content if I'm not in the top 1% of raiders. I was waiting for Vanguard, but not now that Sony bought them. For a company that was going to have no hand in the game, they've already come up with a horribly conceived site for it. And the game isn't even out yet. I can't wait to see how they manage to ruin that one like they did EQ and SW:G.

 

[ArchAngel777]

You know, honestly, some of the 5 man instances are more difficult than ZG/MC in my opinion. The 5 man instances require players to be flexible in their play style. Instead of just doing one thing (nuking) they have to do many things... Poly, Nuke, Counterspell, AoE, etc... In raid you are generally assigned one task and one task only.

Personally, I think the gear that drops from the current 5-man's should be epic as well, except that it should have a much lower drop rate (Say 3% instead of 15% per peice).

Just my opinion on it. The difference between T2 and Blues from DM is QUITE substancial... Were are talking Items that are effective L63ish compared to items that are L80+... Even when the L70 caps come out, much of that high end raid gear currently will be more powerful than a blue L70 item... :thumbsdown:

I guess in the end I do not care but I am trying to be realistic about it... My guild does MC, ZG, AQ20/40 and BWL (No Naxx yet).

I like the idea of a 25 player raid cap. I would actually prefer it at 20, personally.

 

[cKGunslinger]

I was joking around on my server forum, but truth be known, I'd like to see some solo and 2-man capped instances. If not for epic items, at least for rep/quests.

My favorite times was in a smallish guild with about 15 people, all lvl ~50ish, and we split into 3 5-man teams and did a race in ST. We were all in TS and calling out objectives complete. That was 10x as fun as rounding up 5 PuGs and grinding ZG a year later.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Smilin
I think when bliz says it will get harder they mean on a per-person basis. Think more like Dire Maul - that place can be as tough on a 5man team as MC would be with a 40man.
You're not going to get a 25man team to complete a 40man raid. They will make changes to the difficulty.

that's not necessarily true. our guild had MC down to the point we could do 80-90% of it with 25-30 people if we didn't have the turn out. it was mostly just getting the strats down, after that it's not that hard. there are exceptions where you need the extra bodies (or character types) but for the most part, a solid core of players can power through a 40 man raid with less than 40 people.

 

[ArchAngel777]

That is true... We did Razorgore with 31. Difficult, but doable.