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Wow. Bush is finally using common sense in regards to Iran

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IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
Why should I worry? I don't live in Israel.
Do you live in Iran??????? NO?! Good then what the hell, let's Nuke'em.

After all I don't know anyone who lives there. Real sound judgement there. :roll:
Why wastes some good nukes, I say leave them alone until they are problem to the US. Otherwise we just get another quagmire.
Good ole isolationism works everytime.....
I suppose we should ignore China and leave China alone until they become a problem to us -- thats funny :D :D :D
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
And therein lies your problem. First of all, you're mixing Iran with Al Qaeda, which Bush did with Iraq and that turned out to be a lie.

Second, America, Israel, and many other nations on earth have supported one guerilla organization or another, why single out Iran's? It's just stupid.

Third, America made Iran what it is today. There's nothing like being afraid of your own creation, no?

Fourth, show some respect for other peoples and they may not want to kill you.
You can show respect all you want -- still will not change a thing -- thats just the way some cultures are.

But again I do find that funny :D

There alot of historical examples that showing respect does not work -- unless you respect there right to kill and destroy what you stand for!
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Dari
Fourth, show some respect for other peoples and they may not want to kill you.
Ok, let's see:
  1. We are sinful animals, and
  2. death to america

Yep... respect would really help in this case.

EDIT: now linking to the entire video.
Very nice dna, I especially like this part:
If we accept the principle that anybody whose forefathers ever lived on any land 2,000 or 3,000 years ago should rule today, then America should be ruled by the native Americans who are there today
Well since we know from history that the land of Israel was ruled by Jews 3000 years ago I think he just made a statement supporting their right to rule there today... thank you Ahmadinejad.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
You don't really believe that, do you? I realize the natural tendency to lump everyone in the Middle East together as terrorists, but it's really more complicated than that. While Iran may support terrorist groups, there is a BIG difference between supporting from afar and willing to risk national death in dying for some particular cause. Words are cheap, especially in that part of the world, I firmly believe that MAD will work with Iran just as well as with the Soviet Union, all the more so because it is NOT "mutual", at least not in our case. Iran could probably trade their entire country for all of Israel, and in the case of the US they couldn't even get that far. Attacking the great Satan is fine if you can get someone else to do it for you, but when it's their own nuts on the chopping block, I think Iran will stop and reflect.

Iran is clearly trying to become a regional superpower, and I think they have a good chance of doing so now that we've taken away their only competition by invading Iraq (once again, just great work form the Bush team). I do not believe their current stance on a lot of things is an attempt to "bring about the end of the world", just the opposite. They want EARTHLY power and influence, and people like that are the last ones who are going to be nuking anyone.
You may be right that Iran will not attack anyone with Nukes itself. But you said yourself why do it if you can get someone else to do it for you. Can we risk Iran giving a Nuke to Hezbollah? "Here go blow up Tel Aviv."

The idea that we shouldn't worry about them dropping a Nuke on Israel because we don't live there is idiotic (and I know you didn't make that statement, others did) I don't want to see anyone get Nuked, including Iran. I'd be very happy if peace broke out all over the world, but some how I don't see that happening as long as some people believe that killing in the name of god is a good thing.

BTW: right now you are right about us taking Iraq off the table as a balance to Iran, but if we can get Iraq up and running again then they will return to their position of acting as a balance. Even more so if we are giving them military aid. Look at little ole? Israel and how powerful they are because of the support we gave them for so many years. Of course all this depends on us figuring out the Iraq situation and making it work.
I personally think the danger of a country like Iran handing a nuke over to a terrorist group is greatly overestimated. The big reason is that it would be too easy to track that sort of exchange, or if not easy, then inevitable. If Iran helped a terrorist group detonate a nuke in one of our cities or a city of one of our allies, I very much doubt their involvement would stay hidden for long...and when it WAS revealed, we've only had one policy regarding weapons of mass destruction attacks as long as I can remember...

The other thing is that, as I said, Iran is really trying to become a great regional power...and if they really are persuing nuclear weapons, I think THAT would be the primary motivation for doing so. Nukes UNUSED are seen as a shortcut to international legitimacy for some reason, actually USING them does not help that goal at all. And personally I think Iran is more interested in becoming a regional superpower than destroying Israel or the US. Funding terrorists can be a means to an end, but right now it's pretty low stakes (for them), I don't think they are at all eager to risk raising those stakes.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
You don't really believe that, do you? I realize the natural tendency to lump everyone in the Middle East together as terrorists, but it's really more complicated than that. While Iran may support terrorist groups, there is a BIG difference between supporting from afar and willing to risk national death in dying for some particular cause. Words are cheap, especially in that part of the world, I firmly believe that MAD will work with Iran just as well as with the Soviet Union, all the more so because it is NOT "mutual", at least not in our case. Iran could probably trade their entire country for all of Israel, and in the case of the US they couldn't even get that far. Attacking the great Satan is fine if you can get someone else to do it for you, but when it's their own nuts on the chopping block, I think Iran will stop and reflect.

Iran is clearly trying to become a regional superpower, and I think they have a good chance of doing so now that we've taken away their only competition by invading Iraq (once again, just great work form the Bush team). I do not believe their current stance on a lot of things is an attempt to "bring about the end of the world", just the opposite. They want EARTHLY power and influence, and people like that are the last ones who are going to be nuking anyone.
You may be right that Iran will not attack anyone with Nukes itself. But you said yourself why do it if you can get someone else to do it for you. Can we risk Iran giving a Nuke to Hezbollah? "Here go blow up Tel Aviv."

The idea that we shouldn't worry about them dropping a Nuke on Israel because we don't live there is idiotic (and I know you didn't make that statement, others did) I don't want to see anyone get Nuked, including Iran. I'd be very happy if peace broke out all over the world, but some how I don't see that happening as long as some people believe that killing in the name of god is a good thing.

BTW: right now you are right about us taking Iraq off the table as a balance to Iran, but if we can get Iraq up and running again then they will return to their position of acting as a balance. Even more so if we are giving them military aid. Look at little ole? Israel and how powerful they are because of the support we gave them for so many years. Of course all this depends on us figuring out the Iraq situation and making it work.
I personally think the danger of a country like Iran handing a nuke over to a terrorist group is greatly overestimated. The big reason is that it would be too easy to track that sort of exchange, or if not easy, then inevitable. If Iran helped a terrorist group detonate a nuke in one of our cities or a city of one of our allies, I very much doubt their involvement would stay hidden for long...and when it WAS revealed, we've only had one policy regarding weapons of mass destruction attacks as long as I can remember...

The other thing is that, as I said, Iran is really trying to become a great regional power...and if they really are persuing nuclear weapons, I think THAT would be the primary motivation for doing so. Nukes UNUSED are seen as a shortcut to international legitimacy for some reason, actually USING them does not help that goal at all. And personally I think Iran is more interested in becoming a regional superpower than destroying Israel or the US. Funding terrorists can be a means to an end, but right now it's pretty low stakes (for them), I don't think they are at all eager to risk raising those stakes.
Is not the entire difficulty in Iraq is that we do not know who the enemy soldiers are? If we knew our enemy we could send missiles or soldiers over to kill them all. We cannot do this because they mask themselves as civilians. We are incapable of determining who our enemy is.

A smart foe would leave no fingerprints knowing full well our nuclear retaliation.

Also, your assumption on them wanting to retain nuclear weapons as deterrence appears to assume that they have to spend their entire arsenal in an attack. They could smuggle weapons to their masked army and still retain others.

As for the low stakes, I become concerned about religious zealots. Suicide bombers from this region proudly kill themselves and others. How does one bother to explain to them about the risks involved?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
You don't really believe that, do you? I realize the natural tendency to lump everyone in the Middle East together as terrorists, but it's really more complicated than that. While Iran may support terrorist groups, there is a BIG difference between supporting from afar and willing to risk national death in dying for some particular cause. Words are cheap, especially in that part of the world, I firmly believe that MAD will work with Iran just as well as with the Soviet Union, all the more so because it is NOT "mutual", at least not in our case. Iran could probably trade their entire country for all of Israel, and in the case of the US they couldn't even get that far. Attacking the great Satan is fine if you can get someone else to do it for you, but when it's their own nuts on the chopping block, I think Iran will stop and reflect.

Iran is clearly trying to become a regional superpower, and I think they have a good chance of doing so now that we've taken away their only competition by invading Iraq (once again, just great work form the Bush team). I do not believe their current stance on a lot of things is an attempt to "bring about the end of the world", just the opposite. They want EARTHLY power and influence, and people like that are the last ones who are going to be nuking anyone.
You may be right that Iran will not attack anyone with Nukes itself. But you said yourself why do it if you can get someone else to do it for you. Can we risk Iran giving a Nuke to Hezbollah? "Here go blow up Tel Aviv."

The idea that we shouldn't worry about them dropping a Nuke on Israel because we don't live there is idiotic (and I know you didn't make that statement, others did) I don't want to see anyone get Nuked, including Iran. I'd be very happy if peace broke out all over the world, but some how I don't see that happening as long as some people believe that killing in the name of god is a good thing.

BTW: right now you are right about us taking Iraq off the table as a balance to Iran, but if we can get Iraq up and running again then they will return to their position of acting as a balance. Even more so if we are giving them military aid. Look at little ole? Israel and how powerful they are because of the support we gave them for so many years. Of course all this depends on us figuring out the Iraq situation and making it work.
I personally think the danger of a country like Iran handing a nuke over to a terrorist group is greatly overestimated. The big reason is that it would be too easy to track that sort of exchange, or if not easy, then inevitable. If Iran helped a terrorist group detonate a nuke in one of our cities or a city of one of our allies, I very much doubt their involvement would stay hidden for long...and when it WAS revealed, we've only had one policy regarding weapons of mass destruction attacks as long as I can remember...

The other thing is that, as I said, Iran is really trying to become a great regional power...and if they really are persuing nuclear weapons, I think THAT would be the primary motivation for doing so. Nukes UNUSED are seen as a shortcut to international legitimacy for some reason, actually USING them does not help that goal at all. And personally I think Iran is more interested in becoming a regional superpower than destroying Israel or the US. Funding terrorists can be a means to an end, but right now it's pretty low stakes (for them), I don't think they are at all eager to risk raising those stakes.
Is not the entire difficulty in Iraq is that we do not know who the enemy soldiers are? If we knew our enemy we could send missiles or soldiers over to kill them all. We cannot do this because they mask themselves as civilians. We are incapable of determining who our enemy is.

A smart foe would leave no fingerprints knowing full well our nuclear retaliation.

Also, your assumption on them wanting to retain nuclear weapons as deterrence appears to assume that they have to spend their entire arsenal in an attack. They could smuggle weapons to their masked army and still retain others.

As for the low stakes, I become concerned about religious zealots. Suicide bombers from this region proudly kill themselves and others. How does one bother to explain to them about the risks involved?
As I said before, you are making the assumption that we can treat low-rent dumbasses with bombs strapped to them and the leaders of a regional power the same way...and I would think it would be obvious that we can't. The insurgency in Iraq is a problem because they are a diverse group spread out around the country operating in small cells, this is very different from being a large nation state. Even if a nation state tries to distance itself from a conflict by supporting such groups, there is still an "end of the trail" you get when you follow the connections, with a terrorist group acting alone there is no such trail to follow, there is no "end", it's just a bunch of individuals linked together. Now that's not to say that it's impossible to make it very difficult to track a relationship like that, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave "no fingerprints". And given the impact of a nuclear attack, I would imagine we'd spare no effort in finding the tiniest clue...I don't think the Iranian leaders would be willing to take that risk.

Like I said, the issue people are confusing here is who the religious zealots are. Iran is not led by suicide bombers, it's led by people who are perfectly willing to USE suicide bombers and other religious zealots as long as the zealots take all the risks, but when you start talking about things like nuclear weapons, the risks are suddenly applied to the leaders of a country as well. The religious zealots may not understand the concept of risk, but I am positive the Iranian leaders do.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
Why should I worry? I don't live in Israel.
Do you live in Iran??????? NO?! Good then what the hell, let's Nuke'em.

After all I don't know anyone who lives there. Real sound judgement there. :roll:
Why wastes some good nukes, I say leave them alone until they are problem to the US. Otherwise we just get another quagmire.
Good ole isolationism works everytime.....
I suppose we should ignore China and leave China alone until they become a problem to us -- thats funny :D :D :D
Isn't that what we are doing. I don't see use invading. And so far it has worked out great.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Like I said, the issue people are confusing here is who the religious zealots are. Iran is not led by suicide bombers, it's led by people who are perfectly willing to USE suicide bombers and other religious zealots as long as the zealots take all the risks, but when you start talking about things like nuclear weapons, the risks are suddenly applied to the leaders of a country as well. The religious zealots may not understand the concept of risk, but I am positive the Iranian leaders do.
And you are assuming that their first target would be in Europe or North America.
What if some nuclear material is "stolen" -- those darn al-Qaeda are sneaky -- and then used in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or somewhere else in the region, where plenty apologists will label it as an internal matter (gassing the Kurds was an internal matter, no?)

A dirty bomb might not cause lots of damage, but it will definitely spread fear, and rally the Jiahd troops -- I can already imagine the propaganda: "the fire of Allah".

They cause major changes in the region, and counting on religious wackos not change their mind, or to have a stroke, and then change their mind, is not something that I look forward to. These guys sacrificed their own people's children to clear mines, so I wouldn't put it past them to take an action that would endanger them, after all, they allow themselves to call the US the Great Satan, and all non-Muslims animals, just because they think there won't be reprecussions, and so far they have been right.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
We will judge all life by what voice we listen to with ourselves. Put simply we will either listen to the Devil who will tell us to mistrust every one, to strike them first before they strike us, to devalue the enemy to give ourselves the moral permission to exterminate him, or we will listen to the voice of God who tells us that the Kingdom of heaven is within, and that the aim of man should be to manifest that kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. We are gods who were put down an children and made to hate ourselves. We are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and have aligned ourselves with the devil, or we try to resist and hold to what is sacred.

We are paranoids who long for the good but are terrified to trust because we trusted as children and were killed. We have all been through a concentration camp of now unimagined evil because all memory has been repressed, but our fears come out in our nightmares and things that lurk under the bed. That evil that happened to us long ago is our there hiding in the Mullah's beard. Poor humanity, so sweet and so deeply sick.

For humanity to survive, somewhere somehow some attempt will have to be made for each of us to find a way to heal. All the violence of the world is only all the violence that is within each of us. May you find a way to confront your own evil.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The second you take the military option off the table Iran has no reason to comply with the world?s demand that they stop their Nuke program.

It?s like the old joke about English cops without guns ?Stop!! Or I?ll yell stop again!?
Doesn?t really work does it?

I am not saying we should bomb them into the ?stone age?, but there needs to be real consequences for their actions.

Chirac says sanctions should not be an option, how the hell does he intend to get Iran to play along then?
What good is a gun when the criminal is surrounded by thousands of innocent people? You are having a bad dream if you think there is a military option, no? You have a population in Iran that likes American and would like to have more freedoms and you are going to bomb them into the arms of the Mullahs? That would be rather stupid, no?

We will have to learn to trust the other because the other is ourselves. We will have to learn to work for the benefit of others because we are the other who benefits. There is only love. There is no other answer for anything.
Have I missed anything? What happend in the 21st century that excluded "War" from the global lexicon? No military option? Don't you think US is able to wipe off Iran? Maybe there's no option that will both disable Iran's nuclear program AND cause zero collateral damage, that I agree with.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We will judge all life by what voice we listen to with ourselves. Put simply we will either listen to the Devil who will tell us to mistrust every one, to strike them first before they strike us, to devalue the enemy to give ourselves the moral permission to exterminate him, or we will listen to the voice of God who tells us that the Kingdom of heaven is within, and that the aim of man should be to manifest that kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. We are gods who were put down an children and made to hate ourselves. We are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and have aligned ourselves with the devil, or we try to resist and hold to what is sacred.

We are paranoids who long for the good but are terrified to trust because we trusted as children and were killed. We have all been through a concentration camp of now unimagined evil because all memory has been repressed, but our fears come out in our nightmares and things that lurk under the bed. That evil that happened to us long ago is our there hiding in the Mullah's beard. Poor humanity, so sweet and so deeply sick.

For humanity to survive, somewhere somehow some attempt will have to be made for each of us to find a way to heal. All the violence of the world is only all the violence that is within each of us. May you find a way to confront your own evil.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
You're driven by logic and humanity, they're driven by their Pan-Arabian respect (although they aren't Arabs) and Islam. What kind of common denominator do you have with them? It would be like explaining your values - Love of mankind is among them, if I understood you correct - to a Martian who seeks to destroy your planet.

Your rather advanced ideas have place in a modern society that seeks to prosper; Definitely NOT in the Iranian regime.

 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,293
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Dari
Even if they do want a bomb, can we honestly stop them? Do we really want to? Having the bomb will be like another cold war. Iran is only a threat to us if we want them to be. No need to go apesh!t over nuclear weapons. Last time we did that, we landed in the quicksand called Iraq. Let's not even get started on North Korea.
So you are saying that it is ok if Iran has a nuke weapon? Does the fact that Iran supports one of the largest terrorist groups in the world (Hezbollah) and calls for the elimination of Israel make you worry in the least bit that they could use their Nukes?

The cold war ?worked? because both sides were fearful of the other side using its Nukes. Iran may not have that problem because of their Islamic view that killing non-believers is a one way ticket to heaven.

We know for certain that al-Qaeda will use Nukes on us if they can. I am not willing to gamble that Iran will not.
And therein lies your problem. First of all, you're mixing Iran with Al Qaeda, which Bush did with Iraq and that turned out to be a lie.

Second, America, Israel, and many other nations on earth have supported one guerilla organization or another, why single out Iran's? It's just stupid.

Third, America made Iran what it is today. There's nothing like being afraid of your own creation, no?

Fourth, show some respect for other peoples and they may not want to kill you.
Great theory, try telling it to these people:
"Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim," Malin, a prominent cleric in the Somali capital, told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.
Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin urged Muslims to find the pontiff and punish him for insulting the Prophet Mohammed and Allah in a speech that he said was as offensive as author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses.

"We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion," he said in Friday evening prayers.
Another Iraqi extremist group, Ansar al-Sunna, challenged "sleeping Muslims" to prove their manhood by doing something other than "issuing statements or holding demonstrations."

"If the stupid pig is prancing with his blasphemies in his house," the group said in a Web statement, referring to the pope, "then let him wait for the day coming soon when the armies of the religion of right knock on the walls of Rome."
"You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism, when God's rule is established governing all people and nations," said the statement by the Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups in Iraq.
In Iran, supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei used the comments to call for protests against the United States. He argued that while the pope may have been deceived into making his remarks, the words give the West an "excuse for suppressing Muslims" by depicting them as terrorists.

"Those who benefit from the pope's comments and drive their own arrogant policies should be targeted with attacks and protests," he said, referring to the United States.
Last one is my favorite... The pope has insulted us by depicting us as terrorist, me must go out and stage protests and attacks in response.
Uhhh...correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these people condemning the insults on their religion by the pope? Isn't that being disrespectful? Furthermore, US invading Iraq and Afghanistan and then complaining that the "terrorists" are killing everybody, isn't an invasion the ultimate sign of disrespect? Am I missing something here? You can't insult a religion and expect an apology to fix it after they threaten to slit your threat for insulting them.

Respecting a culture is just leaving them alone and learning from them, not invading or insulting them.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,276
2,973
126
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The second you take the military option off the table Iran has no reason to comply with the world?s demand that they stop their Nuke program.

It?s like the old joke about English cops without guns ?Stop!! Or I?ll yell stop again!?
Doesn?t really work does it?

I am not saying we should bomb them into the ?stone age?, but there needs to be real consequences for their actions.

Chirac says sanctions should not be an option, how the hell does he intend to get Iran to play along then?
What good is a gun when the criminal is surrounded by thousands of innocent people? You are having a bad dream if you think there is a military option, no? You have a population in Iran that likes American and would like to have more freedoms and you are going to bomb them into the arms of the Mullahs? That would be rather stupid, no?

We will have to learn to trust the other because the other is ourselves. We will have to learn to work for the benefit of others because we are the other who benefits. There is only love. There is no other answer for anything.

Damn well said!!!!
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,268
4
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
Uhhh...correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these people condemning the insults on their religion by the pope? Isn't that being disrespectful? Furthermore, US invading Iraq and Afghanistan and then complaining that the "terrorists" are killing everybody, isn't an invasion the ultimate sign of disrespect? Am I missing something here? You can't insult a religion and expect an apology to fix it after they threaten to slit your threat for insulting them.

Respecting a culture is just leaving them alone and learning from them, not invading or insulting them.
Uhhhh... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't some artist in New York make a picture of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung? Don't remember anyone calling for his death, or urging Christians to attack him, or complaining about how he insulted Christianity.

When is the last time the Pope advocated violence? Where are the Christian rioters? hmmmmm

These people don't give a crap about respecting our culture, they want to kill us or convert us. Pretty simple if you ask me.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Narmer
Uhhh...correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these people condemning the insults on their religion by the pope? Isn't that being disrespectful? Furthermore, US invading Iraq and Afghanistan and then complaining that the "terrorists" are killing everybody, isn't an invasion the ultimate sign of disrespect? Am I missing something here? You can't insult a religion and expect an apology to fix it after they threaten to slit your threat for insulting them.

Respecting a culture is just leaving them alone and learning from them, not invading or insulting them.
Uhhhh... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't some artist in New York make a picture of the Virgin Mary with elephant dung? Don't remember anyone calling for his death, or urging Christians to attack him, or complaining about how he insulted Christianity.

When is the last time the Pope advocated violence? Where are the Christian rioters? hmmmmm

These people don't give a crap about respecting our culture, they want to kill us or convert us. Pretty simple if you ask me.
And this last sentence is so straightforward and true that some people have real difficulty accepting it. "What? NO! Islam is the religion of peace... there must be some misunderstanding"... Well, some of them will learn, some of them won't, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the opinion of Joe Public, and his opinion surely isn't any better after the recent attack on the pope.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We will judge all life by what voice we listen to with ourselves. Put simply we will either listen to the Devil who will tell us to mistrust every one, to strike them first before they strike us, to devalue the enemy to give ourselves the moral permission to exterminate him, or we will listen to the voice of God who tells us that the Kingdom of heaven is within, and that the aim of man should be to manifest that kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. We are gods who were put down an children and made to hate ourselves. We are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and have aligned ourselves with the devil, or we try to resist and hold to what is sacred.

We are paranoids who long for the good but are terrified to trust because we trusted as children and were killed. We have all been through a concentration camp of now unimagined evil because all memory has been repressed, but our fears come out in our nightmares and things that lurk under the bed. That evil that happened to us long ago is our there hiding in the Mullah's beard. Poor humanity, so sweet and so deeply sick.

For humanity to survive, somewhere somehow some attempt will have to be made for each of us to find a way to heal. All the violence of the world is only all the violence that is within each of us. May you find a way to confront your own evil.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
You're driven by logic and humanity, they're driven by their Pan-Arabian respect (although they aren't Arabs) and Islam. What kind of common denominator do you have with them? It would be like explaining your values - Love of mankind is among them, if I understood you correct - to a Martian who seeks to destroy your planet.

Your rather advanced ideas have place in a modern society that seeks to prosper; Definitely NOT in the Iranian regime.
We they, us them, you are what I described in my post. We have to act with violence because They are bad. We are all the same. We and they are all the same. You tell yourself that they are worthless because it's what you feel about yourself. They aren't Martians and that is the whole point. And for your information the Martians are millions of years more morally advanced than we are. It is us who seek to destroy our planet. We have to because we feel so bad. We don't deserve to live on this heaven. Open your eyes.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
These people don't give a crap about respecting our culture, they want to kill us or convert us. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Clear as day, but many here will have us submissively apologize to their violence before we're allowed to stand up and condemn their violence. We?re apparently savages for not wanting to be converted or killed; heaven forbid if anyone prevents their violence.

Our loss in this war was predetermined when we starting fighting amongst ourselves in the face of our enemy.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
'These people' is all part of the need to divide the world into good and evil with us, the good guys, committing all sorts of evil because we are good and doing to the evil because evil is what the evil deserve. Pretty clear to me. Naturally simple solutions are perfect for my simple mind, but hey, whatever makes the other guy question his sanity.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
These people don't give a crap about respecting our culture, they want to kill us or convert us. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Clear as day, but many here will have us submissively apologize to their violence before we're allowed to stand up and condemn their violence. We?re apparently savages for not wanting to be converted or killed; heaven forbid if anyone prevents their violence.

Our loss in this war was predetermined when we starting fighting amongst ourselves in the face of our enemy.
When was the last time one of "them" tried to kill you?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We will judge all life by what voice we listen to with ourselves. Put simply we will either listen to the Devil who will tell us to mistrust every one, to strike them first before they strike us, to devalue the enemy to give ourselves the moral permission to exterminate him, or we will listen to the voice of God who tells us that the Kingdom of heaven is within, and that the aim of man should be to manifest that kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. We are gods who were put down an children and made to hate ourselves. We are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and have aligned ourselves with the devil, or we try to resist and hold to what is sacred.

We are paranoids who long for the good but are terrified to trust because we trusted as children and were killed. We have all been through a concentration camp of now unimagined evil because all memory has been repressed, but our fears come out in our nightmares and things that lurk under the bed. That evil that happened to us long ago is our there hiding in the Mullah's beard. Poor humanity, so sweet and so deeply sick.

For humanity to survive, somewhere somehow some attempt will have to be made for each of us to find a way to heal. All the violence of the world is only all the violence that is within each of us. May you find a way to confront your own evil.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
You're driven by logic and humanity, they're driven by their Pan-Arabian respect (although they aren't Arabs) and Islam. What kind of common denominator do you have with them? It would be like explaining your values - Love of mankind is among them, if I understood you correct - to a Martian who seeks to destroy your planet.

Your rather advanced ideas have place in a modern society that seeks to prosper; Definitely NOT in the Iranian regime.
We they, us them, you are what I described in my post. We have to act with violence because They are bad. We are all the same. We and they are all the same. You tell yourself that they are worthless because it's what you feel about yourself. They aren't Martians and that is the whole point. And for your information the Martians are millions of years more morally advanced than we are. It is us who seek to destroy our planet. We have to because we feel so bad. We don't deserve to live on this heaven. Open your eyes.
What kind of patronization is that? Are you denying the difference of their religion and culture? They sure wouldn't want to hear that "we are all the same", especially not when it comes from an infidel.

Look at the goals of the Iranian regime; Are they same as yours? Do you cherish the same values? Do you share the same religion, beliefes, language? Other than being humanoid-like in form, what do you have in common with them?

It's not that they are bad in absolute terms. They are very bad for US, and like it or not, you reside in the free world, which puts you firmly in the "us" and not in the "them".

You have to act with violence because turning the other cheek simply doesn't work when it comes to radicals with WMD.

The lack of real, tangible war, near your home, has clearly made some people - you included - forget their survival instincts. You put the good of your enemy with your own, on the same level, and you don't even realize he's an enemy.

Would you deal with the Nazis in the same way you're suggesting we deal with the Iranians - i.e. "We're all humans, they're not an enemy, we basically want the same thing"?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,293
0
0
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We will judge all life by what voice we listen to with ourselves. Put simply we will either listen to the Devil who will tell us to mistrust every one, to strike them first before they strike us, to devalue the enemy to give ourselves the moral permission to exterminate him, or we will listen to the voice of God who tells us that the Kingdom of heaven is within, and that the aim of man should be to manifest that kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. We are gods who were put down an children and made to hate ourselves. We are suffering from Stockholm syndrome and have aligned ourselves with the devil, or we try to resist and hold to what is sacred.

We are paranoids who long for the good but are terrified to trust because we trusted as children and were killed. We have all been through a concentration camp of now unimagined evil because all memory has been repressed, but our fears come out in our nightmares and things that lurk under the bed. That evil that happened to us long ago is our there hiding in the Mullah's beard. Poor humanity, so sweet and so deeply sick.

For humanity to survive, somewhere somehow some attempt will have to be made for each of us to find a way to heal. All the violence of the world is only all the violence that is within each of us. May you find a way to confront your own evil.

We have met the enemy and he is us.
You're driven by logic and humanity, they're driven by their Pan-Arabian respect (although they aren't Arabs) and Islam. What kind of common denominator do you have with them? It would be like explaining your values - Love of mankind is among them, if I understood you correct - to a Martian who seeks to destroy your planet.

Your rather advanced ideas have place in a modern society that seeks to prosper; Definitely NOT in the Iranian regime.
We they, us them, you are what I described in my post. We have to act with violence because They are bad. We are all the same. We and they are all the same. You tell yourself that they are worthless because it's what you feel about yourself. They aren't Martians and that is the whole point. And for your information the Martians are millions of years more morally advanced than we are. It is us who seek to destroy our planet. We have to because we feel so bad. We don't deserve to live on this heaven. Open your eyes.
What kind of patronization is that? Are you denying the difference of their religion and culture? They sure wouldn't want to hear that "we are all the same", especially not when it comes from an infidel.

Look at the goals of the Iranian regime; Are they same as yours? Do you cherish the same values? Do you share the same religion, beliefes, language? Other than being humanoid-like in form, what do you have in common with them?

It's not that they are bad in absolute terms. They are very bad for US, and like it or not, you reside in the free world, which puts you firmly in the "us" and not in the "them".

You have to act with violence because turning the other cheek simply doesn't work when it comes to radicals with WMD.

The lack of real, tangible war, near your home, has clearly made some people - you included - forget their survival instincts. You put the good of your enemy with your own, on the same level, and you don't even realize he's an enemy.

Would you deal with the Nazis in the same way you're suggesting we deal with the Iranians - i.e. "We're all humans, they're not an enemy, we basically want the same thing"?
You must be Jewish and the Nazis must've done some terrible things to those you know. Therefore, you've become so paranoid about a repeat that you are willing to become that which you fear the most and destroy your "destroyer."

Moonbeam is right. You are (becoming) what you hate.

Instead of comparing Iranians to Nazis, how about you compare them to Iranians. Tell me, what have Iranians done to you that was so bad? Have they killed 6 million Jews like the Nazis?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
I'm not speaking from the perspective of a Jew, honestly. In the worst case, Iran and Israel will be in a Mutually Assured Destruction state. The problem is the inability of the free world to stand up and defend what it believes against dark regimes like Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Syria and many others. Even when Iran attempts to gain surepower state in the Middle East, the free world will stand by and do nothing.

Now, as for the Iranians and what they've done to me, who do you think armed Hizbullah and sent them to the Israeli border? It's all the job of the Iranians, some of it aided by Syria. What about their denial of Israel's exsitance?
I intentionally used the term "Iranian Regime" and not Iran because I don't think the Iranian public wholly supports this regime like the public support the Nazis had. Undoubtly, there are many good people in Iran, and many different ethnicities, some of which really loathe this regime (Kurds, for example). The Persians themselves are barely the majority.
I don't want the destruction of Iran either; Only the removal of their regime and full stop of their nuclear program.

Regardless to who you are, if you're not Muslim and live in the "Morally corrupt west", you HAVE to worry about a bunch of Mullahs with WMD. This regime just shouldn't become legitimate, not anymore than Hitler himself. The Jewish genocide was only a small part of the drama before and during WWII; Would you want to deal with another Nazi-like empire in the Middle East?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
'These people' is all part of the need to divide the world into good and evil with us, the good guys, committing all sorts of evil because we are good and doing to the evil because evil is what the evil deserve. Pretty clear to me. Naturally simple solutions are perfect for my simple mind, but hey, whatever makes the other guy question his sanity.
There is no universal good and bad, if I was Iranian I'd think I am the good one. What there is, however, is self defense and the desire to out-live your adversary.

With all due respect to your mostly thoughtful ideas, it's not my sanity that you're causing me to question.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
'These people' is all part of the need to divide the world into good and evil with us, the good guys, committing all sorts of evil because we are good and doing to the evil because evil is what the evil deserve. Pretty clear to me. Naturally simple solutions are perfect for my simple mind, but hey, whatever makes the other guy question his sanity.
There is no universal good and bad, if I was Iranian I'd think I am the good one. What there is, however, is self defense and the desire to out-live your adversary.

With all due respect to your mostly thoughtful ideas, it's not my sanity that you're causing me to question.
The sanity remark you apparently did not understand: Those who argue that their points of view are simplicity itself always do so in the simple minded belief, or shall we say fraudulent attempt to put across the illusion, that the very simplicity of their views itself somehow supports their contentions. I therefore made the same appeal, showing that how I think is also simplicity itself. I see no reason to allow anybody to out-simple me. :) And I don't need to question people's sanity. I have only to look at the world to know that humanity is completely insane.

Now as to the matter of the universality of good and bad which you claim does not exist, nothing could be further from the truth. There is one truth and it covers us all. We are all the same. That you do not know that truth and do not see the fundamental identity of all human beings is a failing in your own conscious development and not mine. You doubtless believe that truth is some words that can be strung together to describe some physical law and you have concluded that such a law does not exist. Truth, however, is not a law but a state. Truth is a form of perception the human mind can attain when the mind is free of ego. Truth is what happens to consciousness when you are not. Truth is that which is when there is nothing left of him. It is the Kingdom of Heaven within you. It is the Om of Being. It is the end of thought and therefore time and the beginning of pure perception. Truth is entry into the Now.

When a person loses every hope and every dream, when he is stripped of every illusion, when there is nothing left that can be taken away, one is left with only that which is real and can't be taken. What I am telling you Sir, is that at the core of your human nature is an infinite capacity to love. All that you have ever longed for and dreamed of is real.

The love of God ------>IS<------When you love.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I'm not speaking from the perspective of a Jew, honestly. In the worst case, Iran and Israel will be in a Mutually Assured Destruction state. The problem is the inability of the free world to stand up and defend what it believes against dark regimes like Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Syria and many others. Even when Iran attempts to gain surepower state in the Middle East, the free world will stand by and do nothing.

Now, as for the Iranians and what they've done to me, who do you think armed Hizbullah and sent them to the Israeli border? It's all the job of the Iranians, some of it aided by Syria. What about their denial of Israel's exsitance?
I intentionally used the term "Iranian Regime" and not Iran because I don't think the Iranian public wholly supports this regime like the public support the Nazis had. Undoubtly, there are many good people in Iran, and many different ethnicities, some of which really loathe this regime (Kurds, for example). The Persians themselves are barely the majority.
I don't want the destruction of Iran either; Only the removal of their regime and full stop of their nuclear program.

Regardless to who you are, if you're not Muslim and live in the "Morally corrupt west", you HAVE to worry about a bunch of Mullahs with WMD. This regime just shouldn't become legitimate, not anymore than Hitler himself. The Jewish genocide was only a small part of the drama before and during WWII; Would you want to deal with another Nazi-like empire in the Middle East?


No we really don't.

 

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