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"Wouldn't you feel safer with a gun?"

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,530
0
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wake up
kiss gun
look for pro-gun internet articles
post them on AT
sleep
repeat

Doesn't this get tired?

Guess how many people in the UK were killed by guns in 2006? 210. Care to compare that with the US? Care to compare the rate of crimes committed with a gun in the UK to the US?

For the record, my stance on this is - gun bans, like the one in the UK, are never going to happen here. I do believe that we need to be MUCH tougher on the shady gun stores that sell guns used in crimes - we seem to have this 'myth' floating around that guns in the US grow on trees - and yes, you can go to certain street-corners in some cities and get a gun pretty quickly - but the fact remains we don't have a lot of homemade guns floating around, most of the guns used in crimes are at some point sold - yes, people absolutely have the right to arm themselves - but should someone be allowed to buy 50 guns in a month? Red flag anyone? I'm all for people being able to defend themselves, but the constant spew of pro-gun manipulated statistics is really getting old. We get it, you support the right to own guns.

I have yet to read a good answer to this basic question - why does the US have the highest rate of crime (in which a gun is used) of any modern country?

last gun thread post, ever
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,214
2
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all the way down to Vermont, with no gun laws at all, and the lowest level of armed violence (one thirteenth that of Britain).
Yikes.

With all the thugs in Britain I'd feel more comfortable with a gun, yes. I do think that an increased prevalence of guns seems to have an inverse correlation with home invasions, too. I'm on the fence with guns. It seems that if they could truly be removed from society, we may see a benefit, but no bannings so far seem to have an overall positive effect, in the countries they occured in; once the guns are out there it's too late to close pandora's box.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,031
9,708
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Originally posted by: NeoV

I have yet to read a good answer to this basic question - why does the US have the highest rate of crime (in which a gun is used) of any modern country?
Drug prohibition for the most part. The US also has a much more diverse social makeup than any European country you might compare us to.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,214
2
0
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: NeoV

I have yet to read a good answer to this basic question - why does the US have the highest rate of crime (in which a gun is used) of any modern country?
Drug prohibition for the most part. The US also has a much more diverse social makeup than any European country you might compare us to.
It also just has a damn lot of guns. If you remove them all, you will NOT have shooting massacres. They'll be impossible. You will replace them with knifings, though. I don't know to what degree. I find the overall level of violent crime in England very telling. Again, though, we don't know if it's because of guns or lack thereof or because of ther conditions such as the crappy weather and the oppressive, sh*ty government and cost of living and unemployment.

 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,031
9,708
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: NeoV

I have yet to read a good answer to this basic question - why does the US have the highest rate of crime (in which a gun is used) of any modern country?
Drug prohibition for the most part. The US also has a much more diverse social makeup than any European country you might compare us to.
It also just has a damn lot of guns. If you remove them all, you will NOT have shooting massacres. They'll be impossible. You will replace them with knifings, though. I don't know to what degree. I find the overall level of violent crime in England very telling. Again, though, we don't know if it's because of guns or lack thereof or because of ther conditions such as the crappy weather and the oppressive, sh*ty government and cost of living and unemployment.
All the stats I've seen on comprehensive gun bans just seems to shift the crime to other categories. The sheer level of general violence and theft indicated by the statistics in the UK (also Australia and New Zealand) is incredible for a first world nation.

As you yourself stated it would be a physical impossibility to confiscate even most of the guns inside the US. It would just fuel yet another illicit trade across our borders anyway.
 

leingod86

Member
Oct 19, 2007
85
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People keep discussing gun control like there's no external factors aside from gun present = violence. The US has several differences from European countries, many of which were asserted in a previous post (drug prohibition, diverse cultural makeup). Americans also aren't raised with the level of strict public formality that many Europeans (especially the British) have, although this has started changing over the past century on their end.

A better judge is measuring the levels of violence before/after a gun ban, as the author of the article does.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
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I would suggest you also compare the number of people killed with bombings in the UK compared to the USA!!!

In the USA you dont see Catholics beating up Protestants because they walked down the wrong streets.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,567
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Interestingly in the US gun crime, like all crime, has been down dramatically in the last 15 years.
Coinciding with more stringent gun control laws.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: techs
Interestingly in the US gun crime, like all crime, has been down dramatically in the last 15 years.
Coinciding with more stringent gun control laws.
Actually it's been reducing for quite a while, even though more states are allowing more options for owning/carrying weapons. Just look at the increases in concealed carry, the growth of castle doctrine, and so on.

While it's true that crime continued to decrease during some of the recent gun bans (awb) and so on, it was already decreasing before that and there is no statistical correlation between the bans and the decreases. This is most evident in the academy of sciences report instigated by Clinton during the end of his second term. The best researchers in America with the most funding ever applied to the topic were unable to find ANY correlation.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,813
3,327
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Originally posted by: NeoV
Guess how many people in the UK were killed by guns in 2006? 210. Care to compare that with the US? Care to compare the rate of crimes committed with a gun in the UK to the US?
You?re skewing the comparison for political purposes.

Compare the UK to a single state, like California. That's the equivalent size.

Second, compare all murders - not just by weapon of your choice to hate.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,122
3,160
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One may "feel safer" with a gun, but they're actually less safe. "Feelings" are not Reality.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: sandorski
One may "feel safer" with a gun, but they're actually less safe. "Feelings" are not Reality.
Actually the EXACT opposite is clearly true. Though your last statement is absolutely true, and essential. It's the reason we have the fallacy of gun control at all.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,586
11
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: sandorski
One may "feel safer" with a gun, but they're actually less safe. "Feelings" are not Reality.
Actually the EXACT opposite is clearly true. Though your last statement is absolutely true, and essential. It's the reason we have the fallacy of gun control at all.
For sure. My guns have saved my life repeatedly, and never done me or my loved ones any harm.

Conversely, gun control is all about "feeling" safer. You'll never take the guns away from the people you want disarmed.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,530
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please stop with the BS of 'my guns have saved my life repeatedly' - where exactly do you live again?

As for skewing the numbers - that is why I said RATE of crime instead of the number of crimes, when comparing the US and the UK. The murder RATE in the US is the highest of any fully modern country
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
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Originally posted by: techs
Interestingly in the US gun crime, like all crime, has been down dramatically in the last 15 years.
Coinciding with more stringent gun control laws.
Ha! More like a well growing economy and low unemployment rate.

Crime and economic hardship seem to stay joined at the hip.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,859
8,186
126
Originally posted by: techs
Interestingly in the US gun crime, like all crime, has been down dramatically in the last 15 years.
Coinciding with more stringent gun control laws.
No... it coincides with a stronger economy and lower unemployment.

In fact, I will take ANY wager that the US crime rate is going to soar upwards in the next year along with the stumbling economy.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,859
8,186
126
Originally posted by: NeoV
please stop with the BS of 'my guns have saved my life repeatedly' - where exactly do you live again?

As for skewing the numbers - that is why I said RATE of crime instead of the number of crimes, when comparing the US and the UK. The murder RATE in the US is the highest of any fully modern country
No, it's not. Russia's is considerably higher.
 
May 16, 2000
13,529
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Originally posted by: NeoV
please stop with the BS of 'my guns have saved my life repeatedly' - where exactly do you live again?

As for skewing the numbers - that is why I said RATE of crime instead of the number of crimes, when comparing the US and the UK. The murder RATE in the US is the highest of any fully modern country
While I'm not a big fan of personal examples it illustrates the point that the 300,000 to 2.5 million annual defensive gun uses (depending on which set of data you prefer) provide an overwhelming argument against poorly implemented gun control.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,567
3
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Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: sandorski
One may "feel safer" with a gun, but they're actually less safe. "Feelings" are not Reality.
Actually the EXACT opposite is clearly true. Though your last statement is absolutely true, and essential. It's the reason we have the fallacy of gun control at all.
For sure. My guns have saved my life repeatedly, and never done me or my loved ones any harm.

Conversely, gun control is all about "feeling" safer. You'll never take the guns away from the people you want disarmed.
Shens. Shens. Shens.

You are a dangerous gun nut who should NEVER be allowed to have one.
Read below what you posted previously:

Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
And yet they were voted in the office....twice.

Where are all them bush supporters?
Probably cheering "4 more years."

I'd vote for him again. Or support any other method he used to remain in power.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,859
8,186
126
One of the great internet doublethinks I have never understood is how anyone can pretend to call themselves a liberal while supporting a draconian "law and order" authoritarian agenda like the complete disarmament of the democratic populace.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
4
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Originally posted by: sandorski
One may "feel safer" with a gun, but they're actually less safe. "Feelings" are not Reality.
Huh?

For a single citizen, the rest of society being equal, owning a gun does NOT make them less safe. How would it? Do criminals have magic gun-sensing organs that tell them that this particular guy has a gun and should be robbed? Or does owning a gun somehow alter the brain chemistry of a person and force them to put themselves in more risky situations?

Now you might be able to make an argument that a higher prevalence of guns has some connection to a higher prevalence of gun violence, however this varies drastically from place to place, since gun laws, access to guns, prices, motivations for owning and using a gun, and cultural approaches to guns are quite different in different areas. There are plenty of nations with low crime, some of which have lots of guns and some of which have none, and there are plenty of nations with high crime, some of which have lots of guns and some of which have none. Easy access to guns seems to lead to carelessness in some cultures, whereas others seem to be very responsible with them. The US has the dubious honor of being both rife with guns and having fairly poor social responsibility where they are concerned. It doesn't seem like the number of guns and gun crime scale very much here.

I don't know the cure, but unless someone invents a mythical device of power which is able to sense all guns in a large area and allow confiscation or deactivation, a ban in this country won't work. (I'm not saying that this would be the best way to approach the problem, but it is pretty blatantly obvious that if you can "magically" remove all guns from a country, gun crime will drop to zero. Other crimes may well pick up the slack.)
 

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