Would you vote for segregation if it improved your kids education?

[vi edit]

I guess one problem I have altogether with the public education system is the notion that all kids are "required" to go. Truth is that some of them have zero interest to be there, have no intention of ever doing anything meaningful and really are nothing more than a disruption for the rest of the class.

There needs to be a better way to deal with these kids. For them. For the teachers. For their classmates. In big enough cities you could come up with some sort of a vocational school that teaches real world skills...plumbing, electrical, carpentry, ect. Maybe something that will interest these kids. Pluck them out of the traditional textbook classrooms and put them into more functional learning. A plumber doesn't need to know what happens in the 3rd act Shakespeare's MacBeth. Provide them some other classroom to learn functional skills and do everyone a favor.

Maybe the little gangbangers will learn that they sort of like skilled labor, can make a career off of it and get off the streets peddling smack.

Of course that's the happy, cheery liberal in me hoping everyone can just get along.

Reality is that some kids are just shitheads from birth, raised by shithead parents and will strive to be shitheads the rest of their life making the lives miserable of anyone near them. Schools need some way to deal with those kids too without being sued.

 

[Lazarus52980]

I guess one problem I have altogether with the public education system is the notion that all kids are "required" to go. Truth is that some of them have zero interest to be there, have no intention of ever doing anything meaningful and really are nothing more than a disruption for the rest of the class.

There needs to be a better way to deal with these kids. For them. For the teachers. For their classmates. In big enough cities you could come up with some sort of a vocational school that teaches real world skills...plumbing, electrical, carpentry, ect. Maybe something that will interest these kids. Pluck them out of the traditional textbook classrooms and put them into more functional learning. A plumber doesn't need to know what happens in the 3rd act Shakespeare's MacBeth. Provide them some other classroom to learn functional skills and do everyone a favor.

Maybe the little gangbangers will learn that they sort of like skilled labor, can make a career off of it and get off the streets peddling smack.

Of course that's the happy, cheery liberal in me hoping everyone can just get along.

Reality is that some kids are just shitheads from birth, raised by shithead parents and will strive to be shitheads the rest of their life making the lives miserable of anyone near them. Schools need some way to deal with those kids too without being sued.

This sounds a lot like the German system of schooling. I am not against it directly, but it goes against a lot of "equality" tradition that is in place in the US...

 

[waggy]

This sounds a lot like the German system of schooling. I am not against it directly, but it goes against a lot of "equality" tradition that is in place in the US...

how is against equality? everyone is offered the opportunity but not every wants the same outcome. If they want to be say a rocket scientist they have the opportunity to study hard and do a lot of work and get that degree. IF they decide they want to take the vacation school and be a plumber they hit the outcome they wanted.

The problem I think is to many think every child should be get a college education and work in a office. In reality as viedit said not everyone wants that. why force them when they don't want to be in the school? they have the opportunity they just made the decision to not do it.


as he said those kids tend to disrupt the class and make it harder for those that want to learn. why punish them?

 

[Lazarus52980]

how is against equality? everyone is offered the opportunity but not every wants the same outcome. If they want to be say a rocket scientist they have the opportunity to study hard and do a lot of work and get that degree. IF they decide they want to take the vacation school and be a plumber they hit the outcome they wanted.

The problem I think is to many think every child should be get a college education and work in a office. In reality as viedit said not everyone wants that. why force them when they don't want to be in the school? they have the opportunity they just made the decision to not do it.


as he said those kids tend to disrupt the class and make it harder for those that want to learn. why punish them?

What I meant is that many consider the actual German system somewhat unequal. As I understand that system, they evaluate children at a pretty young age (6 or 7) and based on those test results, they go into one of three tracks of education. One of those sends them to college, one to a vocation, and one to... something else? I can't remember. Not a terrible system at all, but I can't see it working in this country.

Maybe we could lower the minimum "working age" to allow for apprenticeships? Why not allow a 12 or 14 year old to shadow a plumber, or carpenter as part of their education?

 

[Eug]

I don't think there is any need for a 12 or even 14 year old to shadow a plumber. In fact, I agree with the idea that all kids should finish high school. Furthermore, in high school, there are already different tracks of education. Those targeting vocational schools aren't taking advanced math for example.

Mind you, back when I was a high school student, they had secretarial typing classes for those who wanted to become secretaries later in life. I don't see that anymore. I actually took that class though, because I figured it would be good for those of us geeks wanting to type fast. Consequently, when I finished, I could type accurately at over 60 wpm. Given that I was in the academic track, other people in my track thought I was nuts, but some of those same people could type at 20 wpm after high school, or worse, are two-finger typists.

P.S. Even though I was in the academic track, I wish the shop/automotive class at the time wasn't 2-hours long. If there had been a 1-hour option, I probably would have taken it. To this day I'm still a relative dolt when it comes to shop and auto stuff, although I've slowly learned a bit by trial and error.

 

[poofyhairguy]

There needs to be a better way to deal with these kids. For them. For the teachers. For their classmates.

The school I went to had a solution for them. They went to a "school-within-a-school," aka some trailer in the back of campus where they were babysat until they dropped out like expected. The district didn't do this for the benefit of anyone but their own dropout statistics though.



I don't think just mixing kids together works. I went to a "minority" high school, in its AP program. I NEVER really interacted with any of the "regular" students. They were only a few "regular" classes they let us AP kids take, and in each of those I could pass every test the first day so it was basically personal time not "socializing and lifting my peers" time.

There is no easy answers for how to save these children, and honestly given that manufacturing is gone even if we did "save" them and get them though until either high school or college graduation then what? They can get in line for an economy that already doesn't have enough good jobs? Great solution.

What needs to happen is that those who DO perform in these bad high schools should be rewarded with things like scholarships and internships as these kids will be more likely to be a "success" that contributes to society than their collegiate trust fund classmates. We need a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

And then we need to give the chaff some sort of government subsidized factory job so he doesn't rob the wheat's house and sell the items to a pawn shop.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

People vote for segregation all the time. Its called moved farther and farther out in the suburbs.

This image of Detroit blows my mind sometimes. I wonder how it is for LA.

 

[Eug]

This image of Detroit blows my mind sometimes. I wonder how it is for LA.

Holy crap!

This is Toronto.

http://neoformix.com/Projects/DotMaps/TorontoVisMin.html <- Interactive zoomable map

That Detroit map actually scares me. In Toronto there's much, much more of a mix, even in the poorer areas. BTW, in the predominantly Asian areas to the northeast, it's actually middle class, not lower class. That's where all the best Chinese restaurants are.

 

[Humpy]

I guess one problem I have altogether with the public education system is the notion that all kids are "required" to go. Truth is that some of them have zero interest to be there, have no intention of ever doing anything meaningful and really are nothing more than a disruption for the rest of the class.

There needs to be a better way to deal with these kids. For them. For the teachers. For their classmates. In big enough cities you could come up with some sort of a vocational school that teaches real world skills...plumbing, electrical, carpentry, ect. Maybe something that will interest these kids. Pluck them out of the traditional textbook classrooms and put them into more functional learning. A plumber doesn't need to know what happens in the 3rd act Shakespeare's MacBeth. Provide them some other classroom to learn functional skills and do everyone a favor.

Maybe the little gangbangers will learn that they sort of like skilled labor, can make a career off of it and get off the streets peddling smack.

Of course that's the happy, cheery liberal in me hoping everyone can just get along.

Reality is that some kids are just shitheads from birth, raised by shithead parents and will strive to be shitheads the rest of their life making the lives miserable of anyone near them. Schools need some way to deal with those kids too without being sued.

Blue collar, white collar, everyone needs to have relatively advanced math, science, history, business, and language skills.

Education isn't optional. In the big picture, IMO, education camps where failure is harshly penalized would be far better than allowing anyone to drop out.

 

[HendrixFan]

Public education exists for the benefit of society, not "your" kid. The idea is that our tax dollars go towards an educated population, which has a real economic benefit. As such, schools should be relatively normalized and you should see little benefit in sending a child to one school versus another. It doesn't work that way though.

If you want "your" kid to have a better education then private school should be the only option. Society shouldn't subsidize inequality in any form.

I don't have children but if I did I would put the value of interaction with diverse backgrounds ahead of school ratings. The social aspect of schools and a child's development is understated. Any gaps in strict education can be more than covered by my ability/desire to prepare and sustain education at home. I've seen studies that indicate most gains in childhood education are done during summer months in better socioeconomic areas. Poor kids don't increase scores as much during school downtime and the cumulative effect of that over multiple summers is where most of the distance in scores reveals itself.

 

[soulcougher73]

This image of Detroit blows my mind sometimes. I wonder how it is for LA.

Kansas City is the same way with Troost Avenue. West side is white, east side is black.

 

[dbk]

Nope

 

[MongGrel]

If someone are enrolling their children in a private school to try to send them to Harvard or something later on the whole thread is pretty much a moot point anyways.

Glad you can afford it.

 

[DrPizza]

Segregate your kids....then they go out into the real world with no idea how to get along with other people.

No thanks.

My kids were "segregated" simply because our area is 98% white. They had no problem going into the real world and getting along with other people. One amazing place where you can meet all sorts of other cultures is called "college." Amazing place.

What I meant is that many consider the actual German system somewhat unequal. As I understand that system, they evaluate children at a pretty young age (6 or 7) and based on those test results, they go into one of three tracks of education. One of those sends them to college, one to a vocation, and one to... something else? I can't remember. Not a terrible system at all, but I can't see it working in this country.

Maybe we could lower the minimum "working age" to allow for apprenticeships? Why not allow a 12 or 14 year old to shadow a plumber, or carpenter as part of their education?

Sometimes, new teachers have this feeling of "I can teach these kids! I can reach all of them. They're all capable of getting 100 averages." Then, the harsh reality hits them a bit later (unless they're lucky enough to be in a school district where the kids actually are all capable of a 100; there are some). I recently heard a comment that by third grade, your experienced teacher already knows how you're going to turn out by the time you graduate from high school. Perhaps 6 or 7 years old is too young, but I think that by 6th grade, you can be fairly accurately placed. Though, unlike the German system, it doesn't perpetuate the delusion that any student can grow up to be a doctor, if they just work hard enough at it. The truth is, that's not the truth. I recall a senior one year, taking Algebra for the 4th time - you have to pass the state exam in Algebra to graduate from high school in NY. I was tutoring her her. Her question: "what formula do I use for this one?" I looked at her sheet of formulas, there were only 2 - for a rectangle and for a square. The problem she had clearly had a circle with the length of the radius labeled. l'm pretty good at not reacting when my mind is reeling. "Why do you ask?" I questioned. "Well, isn't that a cylinder?" "Well, technically, I suppose so, but generally you don't consider the thickness of the paper when a shape is drawn on the surface of the paper." She had to pass algebra just to graduate from high school. She's never going to need that stuff. She wanted to be a nurse. There was no way in the world she was ever going to pass nursing exams. But, for 6 years, no one was allowed to voice that painful truth. It's sort of an unwritten rule that educators and guidance counselors and the like don't crush the dreams of students. Bluntly stated, the truth was, "I'm sorry, you're too stupid to be a nurse. Pick something else." We don't tell students the truth - we don't tell them back in 6th grade that "if you want to be a <blank> then you really ought to work hard enough to get 95s or 100s on every math test this year. You've been getting 70s all year in English; your grades need to be a lot higher if you want to <blank>."

 

[lupi]

yes.

In fact we are looking to move into the city now. One of the things we are looking at is what area has the best school. right now it looks like a private school.

So yeah i am willing to do it.

Though i will say that segregation just on race is silly. Do it by ability and area.

how many people been shot there this month?

 

[vi edit]

I don't think there is any need for a 12 or even 14 year old to shadow a plumber. In fact, I agree with the idea that all kids should finish high school. Furthermore, in high school, there are already different tracks of education. Those targeting vocational schools aren't taking advanced math for example.

You are thinking far too simple. It's more of a mechanical track. Hands on, physical learning. Get to know the parts or pieces of things, and then build the math around it. In automobiles use transmission gearing to help understand ratios. Carpentry can be used to help understand basic measurements, angles, and surface areas. Electrical can be used to teach basic physics.

There's just some kids that will never thrive under a traditional didactic classroom. Provide them some sort of functional skills, envelope as much math/science around it as you can and give them some sort of fighting chance.

 

[waggy]

how many people been shot there this month?

who says that is the only reason to pick one school over another? the private schools in the are higher ranked and smaller classrooms. they also offer more 1 on 1 help.

considering my kids are coming from a school that has 100 kids in it from k-8 class size is something we consider. going from 7 kids to 40ish would be a shock.

I am lucky i live in a area where i don't have to worry about how many kids were shot.

 

[xeemzor]

I'm surprised how close the poll is considering some of the replies in this thread. Seems like there really is no good answer to this one outside of solving deeping socioeconomic problems. It seems more and more that our institutions are broken in America

 

[schmuckley]

I'm against segregation in schools.
On the other hand,forced integration by busing kids out of their are is bad,too.

 

[dank69]

No.

 

[vi edit]

I'm surprised how close the poll is considering some of the replies in this thread. Seems like there really is no good answer to this one outside of solving deeping socioeconomic problems. It seems more and more that our institutions are broken in America

It's not just institutions that are broke. It's also expectations across the board need a major revision and reality check.

College doesn't guarantee you a good paying job.
More education past college doesn't guarantee you an even better paying job.
A college education doesn't even really guarantee a job at all.
Not all college educated people are worth employing (at least at their respective levels).
Not all kids are going go to college.
Not all kids want to go to college.
Not all kids learn the same way.
Not all kids want to learn the same thing.
Some kids don't want to learn at all.

And I haven't even got to expectations of parents or the complete lack of support or reinforcement that parents need to provide at home.

Like Dr.Pizza said above, schools need some kind non-punative capacity to levelset with kids and/or their parents. By a particular age I do agree that it's pretty clear if a kid is going to advanced education or not. If it's pretty clear allow the school to move them to a different track and split them off from the others. Give them functional skills and training to give them a fighting chance once they drop out or walk down the isle for a diploma with a barely passing grade. Forcing a "college prep" program on every kid just doesn't work for every kid.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with skilled professions. Hell even make part of that "functional" training some budgeting and basic accounting classes so that if they go self employed they can keep a basic ledger for their business. The US is really hurting itself by not having a vocational option available to students earlier in their lives.

 

[her209]

It's true that "segregation" happens more on a socioeconomic basis these days, but you still get "the stare" when you move into a neighborhood that is predominately composed of a certain race/ethnicity.

 

[Exterous]

Bluntly stated, the truth was, "I'm sorry, you're too stupid to be a nurse. Pick something else." We don't tell students the truth - we don't tell them back in 6th grade that "if you want to be a <blank> then you really ought to work hard enough to get 95s or 100s on every math test this year. You've been getting 70s all year in English; your grades need to be a lot higher if you want to <blank>."

Ha. I remember the first time I heard a group of teachers talking bluntly about students when they weren't around. My first reaction was "Teachers don't talk like that!" which was quickly followed by "Well, it is true..."

I've seen a lot of kids in high school who still want to be doctors, lawyers or arciteks (sic) even though it was questionable if they would have the grades to graduate HS. We spent a lot of time in coaching 'backup plans' because many never really thought about what would happen if they didn't get accepted.

 

[mmntech]

I've long argued there's a systemic problem with the way education is done in North America. Throwing more resources at the problem doesn't seem to be working either. Just look at the dynamic between the US and Canadian education systems. Canada has a well funded system with highly paid teachers but similar problems still persist.

Here's a few observations I've made through personal experience and my own research.

Despite the push for a university educated populous, North American culture ironically doesn't value education. At least not in the same way it's valued in parts of Asia and Europe. We're quite satisfied with having completed the bare minimum to pass. If not enough are passing, we dumb down the tests. Even look at the parents who will chide the school if little Johnny got a failing grade for not handing in his assignment. Contrast that to China or Korea where anything less than excellence is not tolerated.

We have a one size fits all education system, that assumes that everyone learns at the same rate. Then you have some kids being pushed on to more advanced subjects before they've mastered the basics.

There's a notion of lost causes. Teachers will often spend more time with the students that are excelling than the ones who are struggling. If a student is not learning at the same rate as everyone else, they're treated like something is wrong with them. They're branded as having ADHD or a learning disorder. A hard case that teachers would rather not deal with. It makes the student feel stupid and ostracised. Eventually, they too just give up trying.

Extra help is rarely available both in school and after school within the education system.
Reasons for this are lack of funding or pure laziness on the teachers' part.

The bulk of the coursework is also meant to be done at home. Parents might not be well equipped to help their kids with their homework. These two reasons explain why private tutors, chains like Kumon, are popping up like weeds. There's something not quite right about having a "free" education system that requires you to pay a tutor if your kid is struggling.

Course material is not designed to be engaging to kids. You're told that A + B = C but never to think about why that is. Frankly school is boring and doesn't foster learning for the sake of learning. When I was growing up, I think kids learned more about science from Bill Nye than they did from their teacher.

There are a lot of teachers who shouldn't be teachers. Here in Ontario, it's a well paying job with full benefits and almost 3 months vacation right out of the gate. I met a lot of students in university who were planning on going to teachers' college largely for that reason. Good teachers are rare. However, we're flooding the schools with bad ones. The lazy ones who just don't care. The good teachers know who the bad ones are too. Unfortunately, their union has made it almost impossible to fire ones who are doing a bad job. Would you want a pilot who doesn't care to fly your plane? No? Then why do we allow teachers who don't care to educated our future workforce and leaders?

Lastly, there is still a strong stigma against trade type jobs in the education system. When I was in school, kids who were good with their hands were made to feel dumb. Not everybody belongs in university. You can build a very good career that pays quite well buy being a mechanic, machinist, plumber, carpenter, etc. People already working in these fields often complain how difficult it is to find good help. Yet we somehow think it's a great idea to flood post secondary institutions with students who don't want to be there, then saddle them with thousands in debt in the process.

Now, Toronto has tried the black only schools with an "Afro-Centric" approach to education. However, they've been very mum lately on how well they've been doing. I suspect not much has changed. Keeping the same approach but giving it a new coat of paint is not working. There's going to have to be major cultural and systemic changes before things actually do start turning around.

 

[Eug]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of the africentric schools here either.

That said, at least publicly the Toronto District School Board claims the africentric elementary school program has been a success, and they felt it was doing well enough that they're planning to open a second africentric high school program. The first one has low enrollment though.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/14/tdsb-to-open-second-africentric-high-school-program/