Would you support foreigners with gun rights, to use deadly force against US rendition teams attempting to capture them?

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
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We have heard of CIA and US military "extraordinary rendition" teams which capture foreign citizens (sometimes innocent of all charges) off of the street in Europe and other foreign nations, with that foreign nation's approval, and whisk said person away to "undisclosed locations" for chargeless imprisonment and abuse, all in the name of "fighting terror."

Obviously, a person walking down the street confronted with this situation may easily think they are being kidnapped by criminals or terrorists.

What if a foreigner had a legal self defense weapon, and used deadly force to prevent themselves from being extraordinarily renditioned? Would you side with the foreign "terror suspect" in trying to protect their self? Or would you side with the US government agents who may or may not be capturing a very dangerous terrorist?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Fair game as far as I'm concerned, goes with the territory. Misidentification is an issue that hits home, looking at the sordid and tainted past of our counterterrorism initiatives.

I know one thing for sure, if I'm carrying, and suddenly a van full of masked men with weapons start piling out of a van and moving towards me with obvious hostile intent, I'll put at least one of them in the morgue, and put the double-tap on as many as possible before I'm dead. I would expect the same of anyone with self-respect.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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Originally posted by: Arkaign
I know one thing for sure, if I'm carrying, and suddenly a van full of masked men with weapons start piling out of a van and moving towards me with obvious hostile intent, I'll put at least one of them in the morgue, and put the double-tap on as many as possible before I'm dead. I would expect the same of anyone with self-respect.


lol. you're weird. I think most people who carry guns either think this might actually happen to them or hope it does.
 

GenHoth

Platinum Member
Jul 5, 2007
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As someone else who carries, if I was in the same situation I would run the other way screaming bloody murder. But whatever.
 

Harabec

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2005
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I'd support those foreigners putting a bullet in every CIA\military personnel trying to abduct them in their home country.
If a government thinks one of its citizens is a threat to society, they should investigate and bring him to court if needed.
Otherwise that government should not exist.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: Arkaign
I know one thing for sure, if I'm carrying, and suddenly a van full of masked men with weapons start piling out of a van and moving towards me with obvious hostile intent, I'll put at least one of them in the morgue, and put the double-tap on as many as possible before I'm dead. I would expect the same of anyone with self-respect.


lol. you're weird. I think most people who carry guns either think this might actually happen to them or hope it does.

Erm, no :) I've never even had to draw my weapon, and hope I never do. I just happen to view forced kidnapping by unidentified armed men to be something I would do so over.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: Sacrilege
We have heard of CIA and US military "extraordinary rendition" teams which capture foreign citizens (sometimes innocent of all charges) off of the street in Europe and other foreign nations, with that foreign nation's approval, and whisk said person away to "undisclosed locations" for chargeless imprisonment and abuse, all in the name of "fighting terror."

Obviously, a person walking down the street confronted with this situation may easily think they are being kidnapped by criminals or terrorists.

One could argue they'd be right.
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
We have heard of CIA and US military "extraordinary rendition" teams which capture foreign citizens (sometimes innocent of all charges) off of the street in Europe and other foreign nations, with that foreign nation's approval, and whisk said person away to "undisclosed locations" for chargeless imprisonment and abuse, all in the name of "fighting terror."

Obviously, a person walking down the street confronted with this situation may easily think they are being kidnapped by criminals or terrorists.

One could argue they'd be right.

Nah, it'd just further the case that they're a terrorist. :roll:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: GenHoth
As someone else who carries, if I was in the same situation I would run the other way screaming bloody murder. But whatever.

You guys do understand they typically use techniques which don't allow for you to do any such thing, draw your weapon much less run away?

They have the element of surprise and enough manpower to overwhelm you. The only thing you're going to do outside of a freak circumstance is get abducted.

It's far different whe you are targeted than when you happen along a crime involving someone else. I'd think it more likely a passerby seeing your abduction might shoot them.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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All this discussion really is is the argument if people have the right to self defense, which of course they do. I mean there could be all sorts of great reasons for why we would want to go grab somebody, but I couldn't ever imagine taking issue with the person.. uhmm... not wanting to be grabbed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
All this discussion really is is the argument if people have the right to self defense, which of course they do. I mean there could be all sorts of great reasons for why we would want to go grab somebody, but I couldn't ever imagine taking issue with the person.. uhmm... not wanting to be grabbed.

This was a bigger issue back in the day of misguided 'asset forfeiture' laws, which tempted police to get funds for that nice new air conditioned building by seizing assets aggressively.

There was an incident where the local police had their eye on this nice property they could sell for a profit, in which the owner understandably thought he was being invaded by criminals while in his bed and grabbed his gun, and was killed by the authorities.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Topic Title: Would you support foreigners with gun rights, to use deadly force against US rendition teams attempting to capture them?

Both the question and any discussion about it are meaningless.

Any such action in another country without the explicit cooperation of that nation's government would be illegal under both U.S. law and the laws of the other nation so supporting it is supporting international crimes by agents of the U.S. government, and as a matter of fact, nothing any of us can say about it in this discussion means jack.

Of course, the illegality of it doesn't mean much to the Bushwhackos, and I hope they're held to account for the crimes they've committed.
 

Duwelon

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Topic Title: Would you support foreigners with gun rights, to use deadly force against US rendition teams attempting to capture them?

Both the question and any discussion about it are meaningless.

Any such action in another country without the explicit cooperation of that nation's government would be illegal under both U.S. law and the laws of the other nation so supporting it is supporting international crimes by agents of the U.S. government, and as a matter of fact, nothing any of us can say about it in this discussion means jack.

Of course, the illegality of it doesn't mean much to the Bushwhackos, and I hope they're held to account for the crimes they've committed.

Right, just because some wackjob liberals who accused the president of a crime without any proof, the accusation must be taken as fact and used to support your already raging and demented hatred for the guy.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Originally posted by: Duwelon

Right, just because some wackjob liberals who accused the president of a crime without any proof, the accusation must be taken as fact and used to support your already raging and demented hatred for the guy.

Which "wackjob liberals" accused your Traitor In Chief of a crime without any proof? Obviously, you're too mouse challenged to have searched for any of my posts, or any of those by many others on this forum documenting his crimes and the crimes of his criminal cabal, including treason, murder, torture, war crimes, crimes against humanity, war profiteering and more, or you're too functionally illiterate to comprehend any of them.

Posting even a small portion of those posts, including links to hard evidence and legal authorities defining the crimes and establishing their guilt under those laws, would fill at least an entire page in this thread.

Then, if I did it, you and the rest of the ass licking neocon sycophants would piss and moan that I was posting "macros."

However, you're welcome to do your own homework and post anything you think refutes the charges against them. :p

If you can't manage that, as they say in your Traitor In Chief's home state, you're all hat and no cattle. :roll:

Go ahead. Keep embarrassing yourself. :laugh:
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
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Originally posted by: Duwelon

Right, just because some wackjob liberals who accused the president of a crime without any proof, the accusation must be taken as fact and used to support your already raging and demented hatred for the guy.

here we have one of the 30% that support bush. This person cannot be reasoned with. I suggest ignoring this neocon in the ultra minority is the best course of action.
 
May 16, 2000
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I absolutely support the right of an individual to defend themselves against illegal capture, torture, and imprisonment. By illegal what I really mean is immoral/false. When a criminal has reason to suspect that they will be granted their rights and given fair trial in timely manner they have no right to kill the police making the arrest. However, if that expectation was not there then they would have every right to defend themselves from capture. The same thing applies here.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
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Originally posted by: Arkaign
Fair game as far as I'm concerned, goes with the territory. Misidentification is an issue that hits home, looking at the sordid and tainted past of our counterterrorism initiatives.

I know one thing for sure, if I'm carrying, and suddenly a van full of masked men with weapons start piling out of a van and moving towards me with obvious hostile intent, I'll put at least one of them in the morgue, and put the double-tap on as many as possible before I'm dead. I would expect the same of anyone with self-respect.
+1

Kind of a strange thread. Of course...the right of self-defense -- even with deadly force -- should be a universal right as far as I'm concerned.