Would you purchase a handgun from a dealer if it subjected you to random physical and mental evalutaions?

[surfsatwerk]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a handgun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Ah did not know that, thanks.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a handgun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Not true.
I know a couple people who have guns that were involuntarily committed. They got license no problem. The reason is that when someone is committed is is a civil matter, not a criminal one. If the person is treated and released the commitment papers are destroyed and no records are kept.

 

[spidey07]

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn you are asked to swear that you've never been committed on the form but it's been a while since I've purchased.

If it is then you're buddies committed federal perjury.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: surfsatwerk
So you guys think it's a good idea that mentally ill people can legally own firearms?

So you think it's a good idea to toss out whatever bit of the Constitution you feel like disregarding?

"well regulated militia"

The argument you're making only works for regulations a la DC (i.e. total bans), that were already struck down by SCOTUS.

"well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" are separate.

That's per the latest ruling on the DC ban if I remember correctly, but even with that the legal precedent is that the state's compelling interest in regulating guns trumps equal protection (ie why felons can't buy firearms).

But in any case, there are many legal precedents to this in various states and cities (some municipalities make you register handguns etc.) to void any claims that attempts to regulate gun sales are inherently unconstitutional.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a gun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a gun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

Not exactly,
I have no idea where to get guns illegally and actually most people wouldn't either. Accessibility is something they consider for public policy also. I wanna say that's why they enacted the waiting periods for handguns.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: surfsatwerk
So you guys think it's a good idea that mentally ill people can legally own firearms?

So you think it's a good idea to toss out whatever bit of the Constitution you feel like disregarding?

"well regulated militia"

The argument you're making only works for regulations a la DC (i.e. total bans), that were already struck down by SCOTUS.

"well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" are separate.

That's per the latest ruling on the DC ban if I remember correctly, but even with that the legal precedent is that the state's compelling interest in regulating guns trumps equal protection (ie why felons can't buy firearms).

But in any case, there are many legal precedents to this in various states and cities (some municipalities make you register handguns etc.) to void any claims that attempts to regulate gun sales are inherently unconstitutional.

That's all unconstitutional IMO. But since when has the US gov't adhered to the entire Constitution?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: JS80

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

I know. That's why I tried to stress legally.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a gun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

Not exactly,
I have no idea where to get guns illegally and actually most people wouldn't either. Accessibility is something they consider for public policy also.

You have no idea right now because you've never looked. If you tried I bet it will take you less than a week.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Are you sure about that? I could have sworn you are asked to swear that you've never been committed on the form but it's been a while since I've purchased.

If it is then you're buddies committed federal perjury.

They can ask , but there is no way to prove it.
The reason for this is because how easy it is to get someone committed. Anyone you know can go to a police station, say that you are suicidal and the police are required to check it out. If they are not satisfied, most of the time they will not chance it, then you are committed involuntarily and taken to a hospital for 72 hour evaluation. If after 72 hours the doctor decides to let you go then you can leave, but if the doctor wants you to stay then you have to stay till your day in court, then a judge decides, usually siding with the doctor. Most doctors will drop the paperwork if the patient is compliant. Either way once a doctor decides you are okay to go home, the papers are destroyed.

I worked suicide hotlines for a couple years , learned all about the system.


Lots of people got locked up because of angry ex lovers or wives just doing it out of spite.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: surfsatwerk
So you guys think it's a good idea that mentally ill people can legally own firearms?

So you think it's a good idea to toss out whatever bit of the Constitution you feel like disregarding?

"well regulated militia"

The argument you're making only works for regulations a la DC (i.e. total bans), that were already struck down by SCOTUS.

"well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" are separate.

That's per the latest ruling on the DC ban if I remember correctly, but even with that the legal precedent is that the state's compelling interest in regulating guns trumps equal protection (ie why felons can't buy firearms).

But in any case, there are many legal precedents to this in various states and cities (some municipalities make you register handguns etc.) to void any claims that attempts to regulate gun sales are inherently unconstitutional.

That's all unconstitutional IMO. But since when has the US gov't adhered to the entire Constitution?

That's not how it works - these things have been challenged and upheld many a time, which makes them constitutional. Because you think something is unconstitutional is not a legal argument.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a gun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

Not exactly,
I have no idea where to get guns illegally and actually most people wouldn't either. Accessibility is something they consider for public policy also.

You have no idea right now because you've never looked. If you tried I bet it will take you less than a week.

Exactly, I can get a handgun in 48 hours or a shotgun in 15 mins (walmart is open 247 ). If I'm mentally unstable or impatient 48 < 7*24

 

[spidey07]

FYI for those that have never filled out a NICS form. This is what is checked before you can purchase any gun. You have to attest under penalty of perjury that you are none of the following and mark NO by each one. The FBI verifies that you're good and issue a permit, deny or delay. Delay means they are doing a more thorough check. Permit means you walk out with your gun, deny means no gun for you.
-----------------
* A person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year or any state offense classified by the state as a misdemeanor and is punishable by a term of imprisonment of more than two years.

* Persons who are fugitives of justice?for example, the subject of an active felony or misdemeanor warrant.

* An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance; for example, a person convicted for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; or a person with multiple arrests for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past five years with the most recent arrest occurring within the past year; or a person found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was administered within the past year.

* A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges of found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.

* A person who, being an alien, is illegally or unlawfully in the United States.

* A person who, being an alien except as provided in subsection (y) (2), has been admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa.

* A person dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces.

* A person who has renounced his/her United States citizenship.

* The subject of a protective order issued after a hearing in which the respondent had notice that restrains them from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such partner. This does not include ex parte orders.

* A person convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime which includes the use or attempted use of physical force or threatened use of a deadly weapon and the defendant was the spouse, former spouse, parent, guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited in the past with the victim as a spouse, parent, guardian or similar situation to a spouse, parent or guardian of the victim.

* A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.

 

[StageLeft]

Yes as long as he was gentle and used lube.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: spidey07
FYI for those that have never filled out a NICS form. This is what is checked before you can purchase any gun. You have to attest under penalty of perjury that you are none of the following and mark NO by each one. The FBI verifies that you're good and issue a permit, deny or delay. Delay means they are doing a more thorough check. Permit means you walk out with your gun, deny means no gun for you.
-----------------
* A person who has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year or any state offense classified by the state as a misdemeanor and is punishable by a term of imprisonment of more than two years.

* Persons who are fugitives of justice?for example, the subject of an active felony or misdemeanor warrant.

* An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance; for example, a person convicted for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; or a person with multiple arrests for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past five years with the most recent arrest occurring within the past year; or a person found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was administered within the past year.

* A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges of found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.

* A person who, being an alien, is illegally or unlawfully in the United States.

* A person who, being an alien except as provided in subsection (y) (2), has been admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa.

* A person dishonorably discharged from the United States Armed Forces.

* A person who has renounced his/her United States citizenship.

* The subject of a protective order issued after a hearing in which the respondent had notice that restrains them from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such partner. This does not include ex parte orders.

* A person convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime which includes the use or attempted use of physical force or threatened use of a deadly weapon and the defendant was the spouse, former spouse, parent, guardian of the victim, by a person with whom the victim shares a child in common, by a person who is cohabiting with or has cohabited in the past with the victim as a spouse, parent, guardian or similar situation to a spouse, parent or guardian of the victim.

* A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year.

Is that a hard or a soft check on that point? I seem to recall that they can pull up felony convictions at the store (in MI), not sure about the others.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Depends on who is making the decision at what is mentally ill. There are a whole bunch of degrees of mental illness.

And there's already the background check to purchase a gun. If you've been involuntarily committed you can't purchase a gun. People falsely believe really mentally ill people can purchase weapons legally, they can't.

Irrelevant. Anyone can buy a gun illegally, so there is no point discussing.

Not exactly,
I have no idea where to get guns illegally and actually most people wouldn't either. Accessibility is something they consider for public policy also.

You have no idea right now because you've never looked. If you tried I bet it will take you less than a week.

Exactly, I can get a handgun in 48 hours or a shotgun in 15 mins (walmart is open 247 ). If I'm mentally unstable or impatient 48 < 7*24

I'm talking about illegally. I bet I can pick a random sketchy part of town and buy a gun illegally within a day or two.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: MotF Bane

Originally posted by: surfsatwerk
So you guys think it's a good idea that mentally ill people can legally own firearms?

So you think it's a good idea to toss out whatever bit of the Constitution you feel like disregarding?

"well regulated militia"

The argument you're making only works for regulations a la DC (i.e. total bans), that were already struck down by SCOTUS.

"well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" are separate.

That's per the latest ruling on the DC ban if I remember correctly, but even with that the legal precedent is that the state's compelling interest in regulating guns trumps equal protection (ie why felons can't buy firearms).

But in any case, there are many legal precedents to this in various states and cities (some municipalities make you register handguns etc.) to void any claims that attempts to regulate gun sales are inherently unconstitutional.

That's all unconstitutional IMO. But since when has the US gov't adhered to the entire Constitution?

That's not how it works - these things have been challenged and upheld many a time, which makes them constitutional. Because you think something is unconstitutional is not a legal argument.

Something being constitutional is a point of view to some and black and white to others. And the fact that something constitutional can be reversed and vice versa simply because of the group of judges at the time says so...doesn't help the case.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: halik

Is that a hard or a soft check on that point? I seem to recall that they can pull up felony convictions at the store (in MI), not sure about the others.

A dealer calls/faxes your form and the NCIS background check system is used along with a copy of your state ID (the dealer checks this to make sure you are who you say you are and verifies county/state residency). I think dealers can even do a check via the web now. If you come back with deny or delay and the dealer lets you walk out with the weapon they are in deep shit.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: JS80

Something being constitutional is a point of view to some and black and white to others. And the fact that something constitutional can be reversed and vice versa simply because of the group of judges at the time says so...doesn't help the case.

This is why all bills passed into law need a shelf life and require a full review and re-vote time after time. Put the pampered and snobby public "servants" to some real use besides spending our future into the crapper.