Would you buy a house that had vermiculite insulation in the attic? (with poll now)

[Squisher]

I put my house up for sale this week and had to put down in the disclosure statement that the house had vermiculite insulation in the attic.

Asbestos exposure for people living in the house is non-existent, but I'm worried that people will shun the house over this. The possible asbestos is contained under a layer of plywood in the attic and the only time it would be a health risk is if it was disturbed. Although, you can disturb it safely if you wear a respirator and mist it with water.

Removing it would probably cause the greatest health risk because it would disturb it and would cost up to $10K.

BTW-vermiculite is used as insulation in over 700,000 homes in the U.S. and the health risks weren't even discovered until 1990. It was also used as insulation in toasters, water heaters, and as a soil conditioner.

 

Price it higher and use the vermiculite insulation as a negotiation point. Tell serious buyers you'll take $10K off the asking price due to the insulation removal.

 

[saltedeggman]

the purchaser will just sue

 

[Adica]

As long as I did not have children, no problem.

 

[cavemanmoron]

http://www.schundler.com/atticinsulation.htm

ATTIC INSULATION CONCERNS: GOOD NEWS AND MISLEADING WARNINGS:

On May 21, 2003, the Environmental Protection Agency issued its report: "A Pilot Study to Estimate Asbestos Exposure form Vermiculite Attic Insulation" (66 pages). At the same time, EPA issued a brochure entitled: "Current Best Practices for Vermiculite Attic Insulation" (2 pages).

Hopefully before panicking, becoming too concerned, or hiring professional consultants, homeowners will read the full EPA report, consider the source, and put the report and warnings into perspective---and then relax!

To be sure, if one reads the full study, there seems to be no scientific basis for the kind of conclusions and recommendations included in EPA's two-page consumer brochure. And similar to the previous USEPA study (2000) on Garden Products Containing Vermiculite, the current study has a number of technical errors, and is fraught with scientific limitations, organizational bias, and simple mistakes.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
http://www.schundler.com/atticinsulation.htm

ATTIC INSULATION CONCERNS: GOOD NEWS AND MISLEADING WARNINGS:

On May 21, 2003, the Environmental Protection Agency issued its report: "A Pilot Study to Estimate Asbestos Exposure form Vermiculite Attic Insulation" (66 pages). At the same time, EPA issued a brochure entitled: "Current Best Practices for Vermiculite Attic Insulation" (2 pages).

Hopefully before panicking, becoming too concerned, or hiring professional consultants, homeowners will read the full EPA report, consider the source, and put the report and warnings into perspective---and then relax!

To be sure, if one reads the full study, there seems to be no scientific basis for the kind of conclusions and recommendations included in EPA's two-page consumer brochure. And similar to the previous USEPA study (2000) on Garden Products Containing Vermiculite, the current study has a number of technical errors, and is fraught with scientific limitations, organizational bias, and simple mistakes.

After being my normal paranoid self and reading everything out there about vermiculite I can say that the health risks are non-existent, but people hear the word asbestos and run.

And if you read all the websites of all the asbestos removal companies you would think you were living with a ticking time-bomb.

 

[DrPizza]

If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

 

[Colt45]

last i checked, vemiculite != asbestos.

i think they are often found together in mining though, so it is just contaminated with low amounts of asbestos?

regardless. as long as asbestos is static (preferably sealed), there shouldnt be an issue. I'ts being airborne that is a problem.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

Where would you dispose of it once it is removed?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: saltedeggman
the purchaser will just sue

Can't sue if it's in your disclosure, wich has to be given out.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: Colt45
last i checked, vemiculite != asbestos.

i think they are often found together in mining though, so it is just contaminated with low amounts of asbestos?

regardless. as long as asbestos is static (preferably sealed), there shouldnt be an issue. I'ts being airborne that is a problem.

That was also my thought. Asbestos based insolation is like fiberglass insulation as far as I know...but what do I know?

 

[flamingelephant]

we bought and sold a house with vermiculite in the attic... no problems buying or selling.
If you want to take a chance, sample some of the vermiculite and get it tested for asbestos. This way you can say that it is asbestos free.... if it does turn out that there is asbestos in it, then you can deal with it as such. but if its sealed between the joists and plywood, it will never hurt anyone, even kids.... asbestos from insulation is only a problem if you work with it repeatedly or let your kids play in it like sand

 

[flamingelephant]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

unless you test the insulation first and know that there is no asbestos in it
THIS IS THE DUMBEST THING YOU CAN EVER DO!!!!

if there is asbestos in it, vacuuming it up and stirring it all up will contaminate your entire house. professional asbestos removal requires the workers to be in tyvek ppe suits, wearing respirators, and sealing the working area from the rest of the house, decontamination areas, and hazmat disposal of the removed products...... vermiculite with asbestos is harmless if you leave it alone, if you stir it up, then you have basically contaminated the entire area with a hazardous substance.... asbestosis and lung cancer there you go!!!!

PLEASE DONT DO WHAT THE POST ABOVE SAYS!!!!!!

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: DrPizza
If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

Where would you dispose of it once it is removed?

windowless van+alleyway dumpster+3AM =:evil:

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: flamingelephant

Originally posted by: DrPizza
If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

unless you test the insulation first and know that there is no asbestos in it
THIS IS THE DUMBEST THING YOU CAN EVER DO!!!!

if there is asbestos in it, vacuuming it up and stirring it all up will contaminate your entire house. professional asbestos removal requires the workers to be in tyvek ppe suits, wearing respirators, and sealing the working area from the rest of the house, decontamination areas, and hazmat disposal of the removed products...... vermiculite with asbestos is harmless if you leave it alone, if you stir it up, then you have basically contaminated the entire area with a hazardous substance.... asbestosis and lung cancer there you go!!!!

PLEASE DONT DO WHAT THE POST ABOVE SAYS!!!!!!

Darn, I forgot to mention "and put exhaust fans to the outside in the attic."

It's weird: For some reason, they wrapped the heat ducts in the basement of one of my houses with some sort of plaster cloth stuff. I cannot imagine why they would ever do that. So, I got out the garden hose, sprayed the whole thing til it was quite damp (and gravity peeled 1/2 of it from the ductwork) and carefully removed it all from the ducts, placing it in plastic bags in my garbage cans. Garbage was placed at the curb where it was hauled away.

What?! It might have been asbestos??! OMG, did I pollute the environment? Should I have paid thousands of dollars to have it removed (for a chore which took me a few hours including pressure washing the walls and floor to make the basement shiny clean when I had planned on doing anyway, but just at the spur of the moment decided to remove that white junk as well) What's that? It's only hazardous when in small airborn particles, and is completely harmless in bags underground? And, since I dampened it, and it didn't create dust, I don't have to worry? Whew, that's a relief.


edit: note: hazmat disposal? For what?! It's harmless when not being stirred up into the air. Last I knew, they weren't disposing of my garbage by tossing it out the back of an airliner.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

I would agree on the ignoring of the other posters advocating you remove it and just toss it in the trash. Should you be caught, you could be facing some EXTREMELY hefty fines for doing so. I agree it's an easy enough job to do, but leave it to the professionals and don't risk getting into trouble.

If you are really concerned, get it tested, but beware once you know for certain that it is asbestos, you must declare so. It's probably better for you if you can say you don't know for certain.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: flamingelephant

Originally posted by: DrPizza
If you truly think it's going to make the sale of your home difficult, here's what you do: (since you know it's pretty much harmless anyway)

Equipment:
shop vac
Lots of garbage bags.
crowbar/prybar

I'm amazed by the 10K figure to remove it. Should be a weekend job for a d-i-y'er. Depending on how the plywood is fastened, it may be easy or it may be difficult to pull the sheets. Vacuum it out - Good job for a saturday if the plywood comes up easily. While the plywood is off, put in fiberglass insulation on Sunday, tack the plywood back down, and you're all set.

unless you test the insulation first and know that there is no asbestos in it
THIS IS THE DUMBEST THING YOU CAN EVER DO!!!!

if there is asbestos in it, vacuuming it up and stirring it all up will contaminate your entire house. professional asbestos removal requires the workers to be in tyvek ppe suits, wearing respirators, and sealing the working area from the rest of the house, decontamination areas, and hazmat disposal of the removed products...... vermiculite with asbestos is harmless if you leave it alone, if you stir it up, then you have basically contaminated the entire area with a hazardous substance.... asbestosis and lung cancer there you go!!!!

PLEASE DONT DO WHAT THE POST ABOVE SAYS!!!!!!

Darn, I forgot to mention "and put exhaust fans to the outside in the attic."

It's weird: For some reason, they wrapped the heat ducts in the basement of one of my houses with some sort of plaster cloth stuff. I cannot imagine why they would ever do that. So, I got out the garden hose, sprayed the whole thing til it was quite damp (and gravity peeled 1/2 of it from the ductwork) and carefully removed it all from the ducts, placing it in plastic bags in my garbage cans. Garbage was placed at the curb where it was hauled away.

What?! It might have been asbestos??! OMG, did I pollute the environment? Should I have paid thousands of dollars to have it removed (for a chore which took me a few hours including pressure washing the walls and floor to make the basement shiny clean when I had planned on doing anyway, but just at the spur of the moment decided to remove that white junk as well) What's that? It's only hazardous when in small airborn particles, and is completely harmless in bags underground? And, since I dampened it, and it didn't create dust, I don't have to worry? Whew, that's a relief.


edit: note: hazmat disposal? For what?! It's harmless when not being stirred up into the air. Last I knew, they weren't disposing of my garbage by tossing it out the back of an airliner.

Do you honestly believe that the restrictions on asbestos are there just for fun? When the bags filled with asbestos are placed in the garbage truck and are compacted, don't you think that they would rupture and spew dust? It's not going to stay damp forever.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
I would agree on the ignoring of the other posters advocating you remove it and just toss it in the trash. Should you be caught, you could be facing some EXTREMELY hefty fines for doing so. I agree it's an easy enough job to do, but leave it to the professionals and don't risk getting into trouble.

It may vary by state, but in all states that I know of, it is only illegal for commercial busineses and industry to throw asbestos in the trash. It is legal for residental people to do it. But if you want, you can take it to the dump yourself for a small fee. All they do is place the asbestos material that they get in daily in a designated area that will have less disturbance. I've done that many times.

And I wish people will forget this asbestos nonsense. It is minimally harmful and even then only to people who have worked directly with it for decades.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
I would agree on the ignoring of the other posters advocating you remove it and just toss it in the trash. Should you be caught, you could be facing some EXTREMELY hefty fines for doing so. I agree it's an easy enough job to do, but leave it to the professionals and don't risk getting into trouble.

It may vary by state, but in all states that I know of, it is only illegal for commercial busineses and industry to throw asbestos in the trash. It is legal for residental people to do it. But if you want, you can take it to the dump yourself for a small fee. All they do is place the asbestos material that they get in daily in a designated area that will have less disturbance. I've done that many times.

And I wish people will forget this asbestos nonsense. It is minimally harmful and even then only to people who have worked directly with it for decades.

The point I should have made. Most of it is hype. And, as for the damp stuff that I threw out... do you really think it's going to dry out before it gets to the dump? I highly doubt it.

 

[FoBoT]

i used to play with vermiculite all the time when i was a kid. we used it in our garden as well as putting it into our house for insulation

i am fine, no problems with my health from bathing in vermiculite