Would turning off one light bulb really save oil?

grrl

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Jun 21, 2001
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If I turn stop using say one 60 watt bulb in my living room every night, my electricity bill will go down, but will fuel really be saved? Will the power company actually burn a little bit less oil because there is now one less light bulb? With all the inefficiencies in the production and distribution of electricity, what minimal drop in usage is required for less fuel to be burned? Does anybody know?
 

jasonpetras

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Jun 18, 2001
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You are right. By you and you alone turning off one light bulb does not do much. Hoover dam puts out ~2000 Megawatt of power, so your 60W bulb doesn't add up to much. But, if you are referring to all of the advertising that CA is being bombarded with, the answer the utilities are looking for is a change habits. They want to bombard you with so much "repetitive advice" that your habits change. So when you go to the mall and buy your [enter almost any item here] at 99% off in [enter store here]'s 10 minute sale-o-rama-extrodinaire, the power company wants you to, just as habitually, turn your lights off.

Now for the math I don't understand: Californians are 48th on the list of most the energy consuming states, per capita. Yet we are 2nd on the list for $$$ paid per kilowatt*hour. Something smells fishy, and it ain't New Jersey.
 

grrl

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Jun 21, 2001
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I'm not in CA, but I figured it takes many light bulbs and A/Cs to reduce the oil needed. I'm curious if there is a rough figure in Kw that would be a minimum for the utility to notice the change.

As for CA's expensive electricity, it seems Gray didn't do his homework when he liberalized the market. From what I read he should have followed Britian's program instead of trying to please all the vested interests.
 

josphII

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Nov 24, 2001
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you can actually calculate how much oil you save by turning off your lightbulb for one day.

lets assume this light build is normally on for 12 hours, but today you leave it off the whole day (it is on for 0 hours).

now you need 2 pieces of information to solve this question:
1.) the amount of energy extracted from one barrel of oil
2.) the percentage of energy supplied to you that comes from oil

1a) 5.8million BTU/barrel
2a) 3%

The Calculation

60W = 60J/s x 60seconds/min x 60minutes/hour x 12hours = 2.59x10^6 J x 0.03= 77700J to come from oil
5.8million BTU/barrel = 6.1x10^9 J/barrel
77700/6.1x10^9 = 1.27x10^-5 x 42gallons (=1barrel) = 0.000534 gallons of crued oil
 

grrl

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Jun 21, 2001
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josphII, can the generator actually adjust itself to that small a change in demand?
 

pm

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Jan 25, 2000
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Store the electricity? How?

Grrl, that's a very good question. I have wondered where the excess supply goes and how they modulate supply to deal with demand.
 

Agent004

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Mar 22, 2001
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They store those excessive supply in batteries.... can you even call those thing of that size batteries?
 

Peter

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Oct 15, 1999
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Energy in general is WAY too cheap in the US. You don't get Joe Average to turn off the lights or quit the unspeakable "live parking" habit by talking about the oil saved. The effect must be in the wallet - CA is on the right track there, albeit for the wrong reasons (greedy suppliers).

Here in Germany, where a car refuelling easily costs 80 euros, and gas/electricity bill just as easily exceeds 100 per month for a single person household, you DO notice a difference on the bills. As a side effect, we consume dramatically less too, the price of stuff like energy saving light bulbs or efficient room heating systems has come way down because of the higher numbers produced, fuel efficient cars are the common thing not gas guzzling SUVs, and so on.

Most of the US people have that "f*ck nature" attitude, or at least stop being "good" when it affects their comfort the least bit. Nowhere else in the world would you see a public restaurant cooled down to -10 degrees in a hot summer.

Needs changing. We see the global effects already if we want to. However I don't see anything change in the US as long as they're governed by the oil conspiracy.
 

jasonpetras

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Jun 18, 2001
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Peter,

Its very true what you say about f-nature for creature comforts. It is really true here in SF Bay Area. Every other person has a SUV (some have lifted Excursions) and they drive them at two speeds: 85 mph (no traffic, midnight to 4 am) and ~10 mph (traffic 4 am to midnight). We claim that we're "green" people, but in reality there is only 5 of such people, and they live in Williams, CA. ..... btw, does BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche [insert stunned stupid expression here] even sell their SUVs in Germany?... just curious..

On another energy note, a federal judge just ruled that it is legal for people within CA (RIAA, etc) to sue Kazaa even though Kazaa is incorproated in Australia and whose servers are on some remote island in the Caribbean. So, does that mean I can now sue Enron for the $64 billion they snifered off of me and the rest of CA even though its sitting next door to Kazaa's servers?
 

KenGr

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Aug 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: pm
Store the electricity? How?

Grrl, that's a very good question. I have wondered where the excess supply goes and how they modulate supply to deal with demand.

Electricity is not stored. Generators in the grid automatically adjust to the demand. The variable in the system is voltage. Think of it as a hydraulic or compressed air system where voltage is analogous to pressure. When demand drops flow (current) drops and pressure (voltage) starts to increase. No action is necessary until voltage starts to go outside the established limits (say 110 to 130 volts at the household plug - in reality it usually stays between 115 and 125). When the voltage varies too much, the generator will start to slow down or speed up (outside the normal range of 59.9 to 60.1 Hz) and the turbine will be throttled to respond. Overall system demand swings are usually slow. A major swing, like loss of a large portion of the distribution grid, can cause such a transient that plants can't respond and have to shut down. Some of this happened in the Great Blackout in the East Coast many years ago. One of the complicating factors then was that many of the plants did not have capability to run at "house load" (disconnected from all external loads) and also did not have "black start capability". That's why the system was so hard to bring back up.

Although there have been suggestions to use batteries for storage, it really isn't practical. The only widespread storage concept in use is pumped storage. Water is pumped to resevoirs during low demand periods and released through hydropower generators during high demand. All plants run most efficiently at full power which is why your utility is really more interested in balancing usage than in cutting usage.

 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: Peter
Energy in general is WAY too cheap in the US. You don't get Joe Average to turn off the lights or quit the unspeakable "live parking" habit by talking about the oil saved. The effect must be in the wallet - CA is on the right track there, albeit for the wrong reasons (greedy suppliers).

Here in Germany, where a car refuelling easily costs 80 euros, and gas/electricity bill just as easily exceeds 100 per month for a single person household, you DO notice a difference on the bills. As a side effect, we consume dramatically less too, the price of stuff like energy saving light bulbs or efficient room heating systems has come way down because of the higher numbers produced, fuel efficient cars are the common thing not gas guzzling SUVs, and so on.

Most of the US people have that "f*ck nature" attitude, or at least stop being "good" when it affects their comfort the least bit. Nowhere else in the world would you see a public restaurant cooled down to -10 degrees in a hot summer.

Needs changing. We see the global effects already if we want to. However I don't see anything change in the US as long as they're governed by the oil conspiracy.

Well I don't know that raising prices is the answer either; that could really hurt some people on low or fixed incomes, especially if you're using electric heat in the winter. Efficiency should just come naturally; I always prefer efficient things; it just makes sense. Too many people do waste for the sake of wasting; off the bat, I can't think of a good way to retrain them.

"quit the unspeakable "live parking" habit "
Live parking? What, leaving your car running while it's parked? What's the point of that? Save you 3 seconds when you get back so you don't have to start it? And leaving the car running...I'd think that to be a theft invitation. But then, "Joe Average" might not be the brightest guy around...
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: KenGr
Originally posted by: pm
Store the electricity? How?

Grrl, that's a very good question. I have wondered where the excess supply goes and how they modulate supply to deal with demand.

Electricity is not stored. Generators in the grid automatically adjust to the demand. The variable in the system is voltage. Think of it as a hydraulic or compressed air system where voltage is analogous to pressure. When demand drops flow (current) drops and pressure (voltage) starts to increase. No action is necessary until voltage starts to go outside the established limits (say 110 to 130 volts at the household plug - in reality it usually stays between 115 and 125). When the voltage varies too much, the generator will start to slow down or speed up (outside the normal range of 59.9 to 60.1 Hz) and the turbine will be throttled to respond. Overall system demand swings are usually slow. A major swing, like loss of a large portion of the distribution grid, can cause such a transient that plants can't respond and have to shut down. Some of this happened in the Great Blackout in the East Coast many years ago. One of the complicating factors then was that many of the plants did not have capability to run at "house load" (disconnected from all external loads) and also did not have "black start capability". That's why the system was so hard to bring back up.

Although there have been suggestions to use batteries for storage, it really isn't practical. The only widespread storage concept in use is pumped storage. Water is pumped to resevoirs during low demand periods and released through hydropower generators during high demand. All plants run most efficiently at full power which is why your utility is really more interested in balancing usage than in cutting usage.

KenGr is very close to the mark here. Voltage, however, is not the key variable; it's the electrical frequency. North American electrical systems operate at a nominal frequency of 60 Hz, which has implications for the nominal rotational speeds of the electrical generators (usually 3600 RPM for fossil, 1800 RPM for large nuclear, and much lower for hydro). Stable operation requires that we maintain a delicate balance between the power being put into the generators by their prime movers (i.e. steam or hydro turbines) and the power being drawn out into the elecrical grid by the demands of the customer loads. Imbalance between the power going in and the power going out will cause a net acceleration of the generator's rotor that changes it rotational speed and therefore the frequency of the electricity. Being linked together via the transmission system, generators immediately share the imbalance amongst themselves (and motor loads) -- causing the electrical frequency across the entire interconnection to rise or fall. Obviously, these deviations need to be stopped and reversed. Generators have governors that sense changes in electrical frequency and cause adjustments in power being inputted from their turbines; this effectively counteracts the acceleration. There are other, slower control loops that modify the generation more in order to return to 60 Hz. This balancing act goes on every second of every day, as customers continually turn loads on and off -- including your 60 watt light bulbs!
;)
 

Mrpilot007

Senior member
Jan 5, 2003
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Originally posted by: grrl
If I turn stop using say one 60 watt bulb in my living room every night, my electricity bill will go down, but will fuel really be saved? Will the power company actually burn a little bit less oil because there is now one less light bulb? With all the inefficiencies in the production and distribution of electricity, what minimal drop in usage is required for less fuel to be burned? Does anybody know?

Back to the original question. If everyone uses less energy, like turning off lights when not using them, or taking your christmas lights down after the holidays, then the long term effect will save in energy. Does the power company want you to
turn your lights off when you're not using them? NO they want the money they make selling you something they are exploiting.
 

Peter

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Oct 15, 1999
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Well I don't know that raising prices is the answer either; that could really hurt some people on low or fixed incomes, especially if you're using electric heat in the winter. Efficiency should just come naturally; I always prefer efficient things; it just makes sense. Too many people do waste for the sake of wasting; off the bat, I can't think of a good way to retrain them.

"quit the unspeakable "live parking" habit "
Live parking? What, leaving your car running while it's parked? What's the point of that? Save you 3 seconds when you get back so you don't have to start it? And leaving the car running...I'd think that to be a theft invitation. But then, "Joe Average" might not be the brightest guy around...


If your house uses electrical heating, you're insane anyway. This is the most inefficient way of them all. And if you do have winters, how about isolating the house better (which is something I hardly ever found done in the US)?

Live parking ... I don't know what the point is, but the fact that in the US, a "No Live Parking Here" traffic sign even exists - and that the sign needs to be put up in nature reserve areas because common sense isn't even working there - speaks for itself.

I spent my first night in the US (in the motorhome, just across the border from Montreal down to Boston) right next to a 40 ton truck whose driver left the main truck engine running all night, just to keep himself warm. Bloody hell, secondary heater systems for cars have been invented more than half a century ago, and besides, this was in May and not exactly in a cold area either.

Besides, yes, all those silly SUV jobbies are being sold here too. With limited success. One litre of fuel currently is 1.10 euros here, and combined with the high taxes and insurance cost of those two-ton bricks, only people who are completely out of their right minds buy those.

Heck, my faithful 16 year old Citroen turbo diesel is doing 30 to 40 miles per gallon (including town traffic), it's neither a slow car nor a small one, and uncomfortable it isn't either. Where's progress?


So, if we go back to the main topic, yes. It's every single head in the millions of people who each on their own add to the total amount of energy consumed. It's your individual behaviour that changes things to the better or worse. <Cut to "Life of Brian"> [crowd] YES! WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!

regards, Peter
 

woolmilk

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Dec 9, 2001
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OMG! 60 watts?

Ok, when I want light, when I need light, i take my 300W lamp :D
On the other hand I use some power saving bulb with only 15W for every day (err, night) use. And no, I dont have a bad feeling when i leave one of this on for the whole night. Or should I?
 

PowerEngineer

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Oct 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: Mrpilot007

Does the power company want you to turn your lights off when you're not using them? NO they want the money they make selling you something they are exploiting.

Not exactly a "highly technical" response. Regardless of what you think the power companies want, you as a customer are the one who decides how much electricity you want to use. Or in your own venacular, you decide how much you want the power company to "exploit" on your behalf. Stop casting yourself as a victim!
 

KenGr

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Aug 22, 2002
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Well, technically, the power company would like you to not turn your lights on until 9 or 10 PM and then leave them on all night (as well as do you laundry and run the dishwasher at 4AM. This would level out the usage and let them maximize the output with minimal capital investment in power plants.

Electricity usage is generally a good thing environmentally in that it often displaces less efficient and more polluting technologies. High electricity usage isn't necessarily bad if it's smart usage. For instance, electrical heating is actually very efficient if it is a heat pump system, especially a ground loop system. These are readily available but few people choose them because it's too easy to put in a convential gas or oil system. Modern flourescent bulbs are a no-brainer for saving energy but most houses have none. There is very little sacrifice necessary to save energy, it just takes initiative.
 

KF

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Dec 3, 1999
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The engineers have already explained how in fact the electric companies do indeed burn slightly less fuel in proportion to one less 60 watt light bulb being used (all other things being equal.)

If energy in the gigawatt hour range could be stored efficiently, the world could save a bundle on energy cost, and any company that produced such a device would gather riches beyond compare. As it is, keeping the energy stored in the unburned oil is the most efficient method of storage. Storing it chemically would be the most efficient alternate method, but why bother when it already is stored chemically as oil?

The major reason for the present relatively high price of electicity in California, or anywhere in the US, is the way the generating system is forced to operate by the governments. Like every implementation of socialist ideas, it creates economic inefficiencies (high cost) and courts crises of shortage or surplus. One thing the regulating bodies do is deny electric companies permission for sufficent reserve plants to meet large peak demand. Then when demand exceeds supply, very expensive to operate plants are restarted. Due to the government, the "spot" price of electricity rockets up. There just does not exist much uncommited capacity that is also cost efficient. The price of capacity already commited to, and paid for, by someone else is not low, and any entity gving up their claim on it likewise putting themselves in a precarious situation which they have already PAID TOO MUCH in order to avoid. I personally believe most of the top level people that avocate the policy know full well what is going to happen, and plan on using the inevitable crises to further their agenda when it occurs. They will attribute the high prices to greedy companies. The shortage to inadequate conservation.

Realistically, the environment is not in danger from electric power companies. The pollution from them is phenominally low. It could be made lower if the power companies were allowed to use the better methods available. There is no oil shortage. There is no energy shortage. The universe and our earth are filled with energy in abundance. New ways of producing and using it more efficiently are created and applied every day. There is not likely to every be an oil shortage of crises proportions provided it is used freely when needed, because as the supply diminishes the price goes up (that's economics), and so the alternative energy generation methods that are unceasingly being refined become a sensible choice. Using energy does not make the environment worse in any significant way for the average citizen. If it did, they could tell. Using energy does not make people worse off. The whole genesis of the Industrial Revolution which made our lives so much more pleasant than the lives of people 300 years ago is the result of harnessing power to do more and more of what was once unremitting, endless toil with very little result. Rushing the end of oil use by government intervention serves no benefit to mankind. In the time availble, we will improve altenative methods further so we won't have to regress to a more difficult life such as was lived in the past, and is still lived in much of the world; and if the past resembles the future, when we switch it may actually more efficient rather than less, as the alternatives are today. Germany and much of the world is on the wrong track. If energy were made better use of there, the people would be better off for it. Not using energy when it is the most efficient thing to do is just a bad idea in every way, and that is what the taxation that makes the energy price high in Europe causes.

Things in the US are better than elsewhere because we do some things slightly better than elsewhere, and have for a long time. Germany is no model for the environement, or for government policy that the US should follow. If we did, we could be no better off than the Germans, and probably not that well off either. The Germans beat us on brainpower and invention. Now if only they had good government policy and a sense of practicality. Even the right-wingers in Germany are socialists. (Adolph Hitler, which every right winger is compared to, headed the National Socialists, ie. Nazi-onal) With stricter socialist measures West Germany could have achieved the economic state that East (Communist) Germany did in the parallel time.
 

figgypower

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Jan 1, 2001
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Um... to be on-topic turning off just one light bulb by one person might not do anything, but the cumulative effort of many people turning off just one light bulb would very obviously save energy. In turn, if a electrical power plant used oil as its means of power generation, then yes, it would save oil. The below qoute sounds like a propoganda notice. :) The universe may have a great abundance of energy, but for the time being we can only harness energy on earth; even then, we can make more efficient use of it. :D

Originally posted by: KF
The engineers have already explained how in fact the electric companies do indeed burn slightly less fuel in proportion to one less 60 watt light bulb being used (all other things being equal.)

<Cut>

The major reason for the present relatively high price of electicity in California, or anywhere in the US, is the way the generating system is forced to operate by the governments. Like every implementation of socialist ideas, it creates economic inefficiencies (high cost) and courts crises of shortage or surplus. One thing the regulating bodies do is deny electric companies permission for sufficent reserve plants to meet large peak demand. <Cut>

Realistically, the environment is not in danger from electric power companies. The pollution from them is phenominally low. It could be made lower if the power companies were allowed to use the better methods available. There is no oil shortage. There is no energy shortage. The universe and our earth are filled with energy in abundance. <Cut>

Things in the US are better than elsewhere because we do some things slightly better than elsewhere, and have for a long time. Germany is no model for the environement, or for government policy that the US should follow. <Cut>.
 

Peter

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Oct 15, 1999
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Right ... then how come the US generate 25 percent of the entire world's CO2 excess output. Note that's excess output, beyond what the plants suck back up.

There's a reason why the US refuse to adhere to the Kyoto protocol. Oil companies are governing you.
 

KenGr

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Aug 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: Peter
Right ... then how come the US generate 25 percent of the entire world's CO2 excess output. Note that's excess output, beyond what the plants suck back up.

There's a reason why the US refuse to adhere to the Kyoto protocol. Oil companies are governing you.

What's excess got to do with it? 25% is 25% of total or excess. I don't know the exact numbers (and don't want to waste the time by looking them up) but the US has approximately 25% of the worlds economy and accounts for close to 50% of the equity (value) in the world. That's why the US uses close to 25% of the worlds energy use. Right now the world is in an energy based economy and as standard of living increases, energy use increases. As holier than thou as the rest of the world likes to act, no one deviates from the formula very far. After you factor in differences in climate and population density, energy use tracks income.

The US (and for the Democrats out there, that includes the Clinton administration, which wasn't going to sign Kyoto in spite of participation in it) is saying it won't sign something which is impossible to meet. Other countries don't seem to have the same concern. My guess is no country with a real commitment to reduce emissions will meet Kyoto, whether they sign or not. IF you believe CO2 is a real problem, you would not be in favor of Kyoto since it gives the biggest future contributors, countries like China and India, a complete pass. It also rejects the only viable way to reduce CO2 in electrical production which is nuclear power. Kyoto is 100% politics and 0% science.




 

grrl

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Jun 21, 2001
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The European governments were disingenuous about Kyoto. They weren't in favor of big cuts in emissions, but they also knew the US wouldn't support it either. So they supported because it was good politics knowing full well that when the US backed out of it the US would be blamed, and they were off the hook.
 

Shalmanese

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Sep 29, 2000
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One scheme I have heard of is that energy companies use the excess power from off peak to pump water up a hill side and then let it run back down during peak times to smooth the power demand curve.

I think efficiencies were not too bad too.
 

KenGr

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Aug 22, 2002
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Originally posted by: Shalmanese
One scheme I have heard of is that energy companies use the excess power from off peak to pump water up a hill side and then let it run back down during peak times to smooth the power demand curve.

I think efficiencies were not too bad too.


In these schemes a reversible "pump-turbine" is often used to minimize installed hardware costs. Efficiency sounds good - about 90% combined motor pump efficiency in pump mode and around 85% turbine/generator efficiency. However, remember you have to combine the two and this is after you've generated electricity in the first place. You lose another 25% of the electricity by having to store the energy. Pumped storage works where the physical work to build the reservoir is small. However, due to environmental restrictions it is unlikely any more large pumped storage will be built in the US. The huge daily rise and fall in the reservoir makes it very odd artificial lake and it is almost impossible to even build a large conventional hydropower lake today.