Would inverting the tax brackets give the govt more revenue?

Anarchist420

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I think it would probably cause revenues to go up at least 20%. I don't support it because of that. In Germany and France the poor and middle class are taxed more so those govts get more revenue than the U.SGovt does.

By inversion I mean that the first bracket would be 39.6% down to 10% after $450k.

I also don't want a flat tax with no deductions because it wouldn't be an overall tax cut and because then too many people would be okay with having an income tax.

Even though most flat tax proposals advocate getting rid of taxes on death, gifts, capital gains, and dividends, that wouldn't significantly reduce revenue because more people would pay income tax and because death and CG taxes make a very small portion of govt revenue.
 

EagleKeeper

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Mis read the OP
 
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EagleKeeper

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I never said that. Why not answer my question instead of going off topic?

If you raise the rate and do not adjust the exemptions/deductions; that is increasing the taxes on that classes.

Why bother putting out the proposal then?
 
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Anarchist420

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If you rate the rate and do not adjust the exemptions/deductions; that is increasing the taxes on that classes. why bother putting out the proposal then?
I don't get what you're trying to say about exemptions/deductions. Can you explain further?

If the deductions were still in place with the bracket rates inverted, then many people still wouldn't pay taxes. But for those who did pay taxes, there would be a tax increase on at least 99% of tax payers.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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It's a preposterous idea, exactly backwards. It would give yet another tax boon to the very wealthy while devastating the working class who already live check to check. It would also cripple the economy since the working class is also the consuming class.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
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Clearly taxing poor people like the o/p is the way to fill the budget deficit.
 

Anarchist420

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It's a preposterous idea, exactly backwards. It would give yet another tax boon to the very wealthy while devastating the working class who already live check to check. It would also cripple the economy since the working class is also the consuming class.
How do you define wealthy? A household with taxable income of $600k would still pay more.
 

EagleKeeper

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10% @ 450K would be a 45K tax.

From that lower the amount by all the deductions/exemptions you state are still allowed.

Do you think that people that are making $450K now are only handing over $40-50K
 

Craig234

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Anarchist's hypothetical is terrible for many reasons, but EK, your initial response is nothing but an ad hominem attack and misrepresentation of what he's posted.

Anarchist, make a credible case for what would happen to the economy under your proposal, and then do the numbers.

Then take ino account that of the less wealth created, there'd be a massive increase agani in the concentration of wealth.- a disaster.

If you think that's good, then just imagine oging back to the days of kings and almost everyone being a peasant trying to get enough to eat. But you like that huh?
 

EagleKeeper

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Anarchist's hypothetical is terrible for many reasons, but EK, your initial response is nothing but an ad hominem attack and misrepresentation of what he's posted.
Re-read the OP and removed my first post.

I don't get what you're trying to say about exemptions/deductions. Can you explain further?

If the deductions were still in place with the bracket rates inverted, then many people still wouldn't pay taxes. But for those who did pay taxes, there would be a tax increase on at least 99% of tax payers.

Using the existing system as an example:
One had to have close to $7000 in deductions prior to having any impact via the Schedule A

Someone making $30K income is not going to have $7K worth of deductions
so the Schedule A will not be of any benefit.

Someone making $450K will have well over the $7000 in deductions so they can not deduction medical, taxes, charity, misc business expenses, etc.

The only exemption/deduction that will work with your inverted system is the educational credits.
 

Anarchist420

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10% @ 450K would be a 45K tax.
I meant 10% after the first 450k (not 10% of 450k).:)
Do you think that people that are making $450K now are only handing over $40-50K
No, I know that they pay a lot more than that.:)
Someone making $450K will have well over the $7000 in deductions so they can not deduction medical, taxes, charity, misc business expenses, etc. The only exemption/deduction that will work with your inverted system is the educational credits.
I realized that.:) Deductions just decrease taxable income. Deductions would be worth more the less your AGI is with bracket inversion.
If you think that's good, then just imagine oging back to the days of kings and almost everyone being a peasant trying to get enough to eat. But you like that huh?
No, I don't think that's good and I never said that:) I don't think the govt should favor the poor over the rich and I don't think the govt should favor the rich over the poor... I don't think the govt should exist.
 

Craig234

Lifer
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No, I don't think that's good and I never said that:) I don't think the govt should favor the poor over the rich and I don't think the govt should favor the rich over the poor... I don't think the govt should exist.

What you don't understand is that the governmnent is the only thing standing between you and the society having royals making you a powerless peasant.

You're also getting mealy-mouthed with meaningless phrases about not supporting anyone over anyone else.

Policies will have some amount of support of one group or another.
 

sm625

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May 6, 2011
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Yes inverting the tax brackets would increase revenue.

First of all you cannot compare the US with Germany or France, because neither one of those countries can simply print 5 trillion dollars and give it to their connected wealthy friends to bail themselves out of a busted bubble, at the expense of poor developing nations all around the world. These guys got to keep their houses in the Hamptons, while food prices skyrocketed and caused turmoil in a dozen countries... all linked to a massive exportation of inflation. The US (the top 0.1%) is in a state of open financial warfare on the world, and so far the US (the top 0.1%) is winning. One of the side effects of that war is a totally skewed representation of what our tax revenues would be if we were not at war.

Putting aside the obvious differences, you have to look at the data we do have, which clearly shows a hockey stick style runaway inflationary event over the last 30 years. We are living in the middle of global fiat currency meltdown right now. Every central bank is trying to debase all their currencies. One of the principal enablers of this is the greater returns provided by investment, ie the capital gains. This gets complicated but the key point to remember is that increasing the overall money supply through growth of money+credit also increases revenues. Anything you do that increases money+credit is also going to boost tax revenue. Lowering capital gains taxes and lowering the top marginal tax rate increases incentive to take profits and decreases incentive to invest. It is the fuel to the fire of rampant out of control credit creation. To be very clear: low top end tax rates are the chief driver behind this quadrillion dollar derivatives bubble that is blowing up all around us right now. It is a driver of extreme volatility, instability, drives wages down, transfers wealth to the top 1%, basically it totally wrecks an economy. But it also drives revenues higher, if you do not properly adjust for inflation. And that's how they get away with it. It all comes back to the manipulation of inflation statistics. They use owner equivalent rent as a substitute for housing prices and that covered up a bubble so huge you would think it impossible to cover up. But they did it, and they will do even more before it blows up so bad the dollar is completely destroyed and we become Spain/Greece. But they will always be able to claim an increase in revenues. That is in fact why washington perpetuates all these bubble policies: they all boost tax revenue.

It is much better to have higher top end tax rates because it leads to a more stable system. You eliminate the source of the greed which drives the rampant credit creation. There is no incentive to create massive amounts of credit if your profits are just going to be taxed at 60%. No motive. In such a paradigm it is much better just to reinvest profits into your business rather than pay such a huge chunk of your money to Uncle Sam. So Uncle Sam loses revenue, but that is of course a good thing when you see how out of control "he" has become. This also causes your business to grow. It results in higher wages and a growing middle class. Everyone benefits, except for the parasitic financial class which is currently consuming 20% of our economy, arguably more than 50% if you count all bloat and graft in the medical and education sectors. It is utter massive, this parasite, and it is fed almost entirely by low tax rates. I wish people could understand this, but there is decades of propaganda telling people about how great low tax rates are and its almost impossible to break through that. But until we do we are totally and completely screwed.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I am confused at what this would do besides punish people who make very little money? Someone that makes $35k a year can't afford to be taxed at that rate.

What really should happen is a flat tax rate across the board: something like 18% with a flat deduction of like $15k. I guess if they did that most charities would dry up though.
 

Anarchist420

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What really should happen is a flat tax rate across the board: something like 18% with a flat deduction of like $15k. I guess if they did that most charities would dry up though.
That's crazy and yes it would mean the end of most charities.

The FlatTax simply approves centralized theft and would make the income tax last longer than it otherwise would.

I hate supply siders because all they want is job creation. They don't care if the govt takes 50% of national income as long as rates are flat and everyone pays.

I've got news for them: No one had a choice as to whether they got the govt's ***tty services.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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What really should happen is a flat tax rate across the board: something like 18% with a flat deduction of like $15k. I guess if they did that most charities would dry up though.

My standard response to that is to paraphrase the famous quote that every problem has a solution that is simply, and wrong.

It's a horrible, if simple, idea. It would have only one effect - to greatly shift the tax burden *even further* for the wealthy onto everyone else. But it is simple.

And terrible.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Rich people pay most of the taxes now. If they were not paying as much in taxes we would have less money. You have to make money to pay taxes on it Food stampers don't pay taxes.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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You would be better off getting rid of all income tax for people making less than $50k and going with a Fed Sales tax. The problem still is all these silly deductions and credits, not the tax rate.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Rich people pay most of the taxes now. If they were not paying as much in taxes we would have less money. You have to make money to pay taxes on it Food stampers don't pay taxes.

Workers 'pay taxes' in the form of low wages a lot. Rich people pay most the taxes - but they make a hell of a lot bigger share of income.

They have no room to complain - there's a reason the bottom 95% have around flat (or worse) incomes for decades while the top 0.1% were up 728% on one summary.

Wah. Poor rich people, paying most taxes while taking by far the most income.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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You would be better off getting rid of all income tax for people making less than $50k and going with a Fed Sales tax. The problem still is all these silly deductions and credits, not the tax rate.

I don't want a big regressive consumption tax (a modest one is ok). I was a strong progressive income tax. How about the 1979 rates?
 

EagleKeeper

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Workers 'pay taxes' in the form of low wages a lot. Rich people pay most the taxes - but they make a hell of a lot bigger share of income.

They have no room to complain - there's a reason the bottom 95% have around flat (or worse) incomes for decades while the top 0.1% were up 728% on one summary.

Wah. Poor rich people, paying most taxes while taking by far the most income.

And what stops the poor workers from making more income? :confused: