would higher marginal tax rates lead to better management?

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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I was thinking the other night from the aig thread, and other thread on similar topics, about how businesses managed to survive and hire 'the best of the best' back in the days when top end income was effectively limited by indirect government action through very high marginal tax rates.

Now after the last several months and years, its become pretty apparent that many of these extremely highly paid individuals have done some very poor jobs of managing the long run interests of their investors, and i think most people can agree that the earnings these people made are not what they were actually worth.

first, several observations:

*since the 70's and early 80's, income's have become increasingly unequal, particularly at the extreme high end.

*top board members on average serve shorter terms in their executive roles than was previously the case

*top marginal tax rates have fallen precipitously

back in the day, with much higher tax rates, the extremely highly paid where limited in the amount of income they could earn. To maintain their status, they kept at their job for longer periods of time. income was effectively tied across the board with long term performance of a company, giving clear positive incentives.

Now days, i think we can all agree that much of that long term vision and planning has gone to the wayside. With low tax rates, high income earners are effectively only limited by the amount that their fellow executives will agree to pay each other. In order to justify these extremely high incomes, they need extremely good short term performance, which is most easily obtained by focusing on the short run rather than the long run, and taking risks that are unlikely to hurt in the short run (although they may blow up in 5 years).

basically what i am proposing would be a top tax bracket that starts around 5 million (pretty arbitrary, i know) and would tax at 70+%, with the idea that this would make high income earners work longer, smarter, and better serve the interests of investors.

edit: accidently hit post instead of add poll; poll up

edit2: grammar and spelling and word omissions, etc
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Say what??

Take 70% of someone's income will all of a sudden make them work smarter and harder?

What it will do is make them work that much harder to hide their income from the government.

Or WORSE they will work till they get close to that 70% rate and then take the rest of the year off rather than watch all their money go to the Feds.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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BTW I have no problem with adding a new top tax rate. Say starting at $500,000. But it should only be a few points higher than the one below it.

IE. Current top rate is 39%
New top rate is 41%
Maybe even two new rates, say $500k at 41% and $1 mil at 43%.

But I would stop there.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
What it will do is make them work that much harder to hide their income from the government.

Or WORSE they will work till they get close to that 70% rate and then take the rest of the year off rather than watch all their money go to the Feds.

Bad logic and dishonesty in one post. Isn't one or the other enough?

Let's get rid of all taxes, because they 'just make people work harder to hide their income'.

Who cares how much taxation is needed for society, the thing that matters is not having anyone try to hide any income. Forget about toughening the rules and enforcement.

Next up: stop going after terrorists, because it just makes them hide more.

And ya, the 70% rate would see "all" their money go to the feds.

Guess that's why no one made over the 50% income bracket in the 40's and 50's with the top bracket 91%, or the 60's and 70's with the top bracket 70%. No rich people, right?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Craig, look at the amount of revenue generated by the top 1% today vs. those glory days you talk about.

In 1980 when the top rate was 70% the top 1% paid 19% of all income taxes.
In 2005 when the top rate was 35% the top 1% paid 39% of all income taxes.

More numbers:

1990 top 1% made 14% of all income and paid 25% of all income tax.
2005 top 1% made 21% of all income and paid 39% of all income tax.

So their collective income went up 50% while the percentage of taxes they paid went up about 56%. And this was despite the fact that the top marginal rate went down between 1990 and 2005.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Say what??

Take 70% of someone's income will all of a sudden make them work smarter and harder?

What it will do is make them work that much harder to hide their income from the government.

Or WORSE they will work till they get close to that 70% rate and then take the rest of the year off rather than watch all their money go to the Feds.

apparently cutting their taxes didn't do much to make them work harder or smarter either.

on top of that, everyone already works pretty hard at that income level to avoid paying taxes. finally, there aren't many people who make the sort of incomes we're talking about here who are getting hourly wages or commissions, theses are mainly salary types; pro athletes, ceos and upper management, trust fund types, actors/artists/musicians. joe lawyer making 2 mil a year would not be getting hit with this. In all these cases, 'quiting work' hurts their long run income. an nfl player that stops playing in december isn't going to be in very high demand, for instance, nor is the ceo who decides to not do anything for 8 months.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig, look at the amount of revenue generated by the top 1% today vs. those glory days you talk about.

In 1980 when the top rate was 70% the top 1% paid 19% of all income taxes.
In 2005 when the top rate was 35% the top 1% paid 39% of all income taxes.

More numbers:

1990 top 1% made 14% of all income and paid 25% of all income tax.
2005 top 1% made 21% of all income and paid 39% of all income tax.

So their collective income went up 50% while the percentage of taxes they paid went up about 56%. And this was despite the fact that the top marginal rate went down between 1990 and 2005.

so you are saying that since they pay more in taxes, drastically less equal incomes are alright? what % of the population falls into the top tax bracket now relative to 1980?

and lets keep in mind, this is not the top 1% we are talking about, more like the top .01%
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
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This government gets more than enough money from the people. It is a spending problem we do have not a revenue problem. There is no excuse for not having a surplus almost every year with the kind of revenue the government gets. I want to see tax cuts and spending cuts across the board.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
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Originally posted by: quest55720
This government gets more than enough money from the people. It is a spending problem we do have not a revenue problem. There is no excuse for not having a surplus almost every year with the kind of revenue the government gets. I want to see tax cuts and spending cuts across the board.

this thread is not about revenues
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I wouldnt be against a new bracket. Since we all know income distribution is not linear.
But I dont see how taxing somebody more will make them work harder or smarter.

Also one of the biggest reasons why we see such huge differences between executives and an avg worker is stock options. The exec to worker pay peaked in 2000 at the height of the stock market bubble. It has fallen since.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
several of you have said that you cannot see how taxing people at a higher rate would cause people to work harder or smarter, can you point to something wrong with my initial logic, or do you just not want to believe it?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I think a major problem is that these execs were playing with house money... it wasn't THEIR money at risk when they took on all those risky loans/risky derivatives, it was the shareholder's (and taxpayer's). TBQH, i think most people would have done the same in their shoes, since the rewards were so high and their personal risk was next to nothing. It's just the broken system of capitalism.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
I wouldnt be against a new bracket. Since we all know income distribution is not linear.
But I dont see how taxing somebody more will make them work harder or smarter.

Simple: So that they can make more money.

Unless the tax is so progressive that it essentially creates a "ceiling" above which people would make mere pennies on the dollar, history has shown us time and again that the rich can never have enough money. If you're an exec, you're already making a ridiculous salary. And yet, they work longer hours, take bigger risks, and demand more compensation all the time, so that they can be even richer. Do you think that skimming a bit more off of the top is going to change this behavior? That's like claiming that increasing the stakes is going to cause a gambler to stop gambling. If putting in an extra 40 hours of work will net you a bonus of $1M after taxes, you'll do it, even if you already make plenty of money. If putting in an extra 40 hours of work will net you a bonus of $500k, you'll still do it. It isn't until the bonus drops precipitously from the current status quo that it is no longer worth your time. Many, if not most of the people who are making this level of income are wealth-obsessed. If they weren't, then they would have been happy with their jobs back when they were making $200k, and taken more time off to be with their families, take up a hobby, etc.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Phokus
I think a major problem is that these execs were playing with house money... it wasn't THEIR money at risk when they took on all those risky loans/risky derivatives, it was the shareholder's (and taxpayer's). TBQH, i think most people would have done the same in their shoes, since the rewards were so high and their personal risk was next to nothing. It's just the broken system of capitalism.

To be fair, I don't think that's the main reason - I think the failure to regulate and the competitive pressure to be more and more aggressive were very important.

We're never going to have a financial system where the financial industry is only 'playing with their own money' - that's what they do, use other people's, the nation's, money.

So any solution based on their only using their own money is a non-starter. They're already incented not to lose their customers' money - but can be pressured to risk.

When the games are going on and spurring on high returns before the crash, the guy who doesn't participate, and misses out on those gains, is getting a lot less investor money.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
several of you have said that you cannot see how taxing people at a higher rate would cause people to work harder or smarter, can you point to something wrong with my initial logic, or do you just not want to believe it?

What logic? You didnt present any anything to back up more taxes equals better performance. How is a higher income tax rate going to force somebody to work longer and harder?!?!?!?!?!?

Especially when the majority of his his\her income is in capital gains(company stock)?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: Genx87
I wouldnt be against a new bracket. Since we all know income distribution is not linear.
But I dont see how taxing somebody more will make them work harder or smarter.

Simple: So that they can make more money.

Unless the tax is so progressive that it essentially creates a "ceiling" above which people would make mere pennies on the dollar, history has shown us time and again that the rich can never have enough money. If you're an exec, you're already making a ridiculous salary. And yet, they work longer hours, take bigger risks, and demand more compensation all the time, so that they can be even richer. Do you think that skimming a bit more off of the top is going to change this behavior? That's like claiming that increasing the stakes is going to cause a gambler to stop gambling. If putting in an extra 40 hours of work will net you a bonus of $1M after taxes, you'll do it, even if you already make plenty of money. If putting in an extra 40 hours of work will net you a bonus of $500k, you'll still do it. It isn't until the bonus drops precipitously from the current status quo that it is no longer worth your time. Many, if not most of the people who are making this level of income are wealth-obsessed. If they weren't, then they would have been happy with their jobs back when they were making $200k, and taken more time off to be with their families, take up a hobby, etc.

That already happens so again. How does raising their taxes make them work harder?!?!?!?!?!?

Notice I didnt say raising their taxes will make them work less.

 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
I see no reason to keep talking about executives making $5+ mil and not ball players making that amount as well.

At least one is representing a company and thousands of people, the other is just catching and throwing!
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak
I see no reason to keep talking about executives making $5+ mil and not ball players making that amount as well.

At least one is representing a company and thousands of people, the other is just catching and throwing!

As a sports fan I agree the salaries are crazy but the answer there is simple - don't support them with your money. You can be a 'fan' for free or at least cheap. I watch some sports but I rarely attend a game - when I do it's usually free tickets. You can add actors and singers to that list as well. I pay for cable TV so I indirectly support actors through my cable bill. Movies I use BlockBuster but it's < $20 / month for more than I care to watch. As far as music goes, with all the free online radio stations why bother paying for songs? Unless one of my top 5-10 bands comes out with a new album I'll pass.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
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I think we should tax movie actors and sport players like 90% of their income. After all, who should make $20 million a movie or $20/year for doing those things which are PURELY entertainment.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I think we should tax movie actors and sport players like 90% of their income. After all, who should make $20 million a movie or $20/year for doing those things which are PURELY entertainment.

In fairness at least most of the actors/athletes making that kind of money are good at their job. CEO's of failed businesses making that or several times that deserve it why?
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I think we should tax movie actors and sport players like 90% of their income. After all, who should make $20 million a movie or $20/year for doing those things which are PURELY entertainment.

In fairness at least most of the actors/athletes making that kind of money are good at their job. CEO's of failed businesses making that or several times that deserve it why?

Umm.. Have you seen Tom Cruise act?

/Thread
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Possessed Freak
I see no reason to keep talking about executives making $5+ mil and not ball players making that amount as well.

At least one is representing a company and thousands of people, the other is just catching and throwing!

As a sports fan I agree the salaries are crazy but the answer there is simple - don't support them with your money. You can be a 'fan' for free or at least cheap. I watch some sports but I rarely attend a game - when I do it's usually free tickets. You can add actors and singers to that list as well. I pay for cable TV so I indirectly support actors through my cable bill. Movies I use BlockBuster but it's < $20 / month for more than I care to watch. As far as music goes, with all the free online radio stations why bother paying for songs? Unless one of my top 5-10 bands comes out with a new album I'll pass.

So don't buy from companies you don't like. Problem solved.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
I think we should tax movie actors and sport players like 90% of their income. After all, who should make $20 million a movie or $20/year for doing those things which are PURELY entertainment.

In fairness at least most of the actors/athletes making that kind of money are good at their job. CEO's of failed businesses making that or several times that deserve it why?

Umm.. Have you seen Tom Cruise act?

/Thread

I don't mean to further derail miketheidiot's thread but MI1 was great! I liked Minority Report too. :)