Work related issues.......

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Let me give you all a little background of my job before I go into the details. I can't say too much as we are a goverment contacted out company and I would risk my security clearance.

We are a 24/7 365 day operation - never closed not for holidays, etc. We are also a union shop and have a contact between us and our company. Each year we are given 6 personal days and 6 sick days to use. The sick days have to be used at a minimum of 2 at a time and need a doctor's note. The personal days can be used at our discretion. They are good to use in 4 or 8 hour incriments.

As a group we tend to say that p-days shouldnt be used on holidays so that the people that have to work holidays arent short staffed (hard to fill overtime on holidays). But we also realize that they are personal days and people have the right to use them at any time. The past year we had an influx of new hires and a lot people decided to use p-days on holidays and most of our shifts were short 50% or more. This is really a major safety risk if you knew what my job entailed.

So now managment has decided to designate 5 holidays every year that p-days cannot be used unless you are sick and can provide a doctor's note. A lot of people are upset because of this decision. Say your car breaks down or a child is sick on a holiday...there is nothing you can do as you have to be at work. We also pointed out that about 25% of the workforce either retired or quit last year and they failed to replace these people leaving the operating at minimum staffing. Any type of situation (ie snow, holidays, etc) where people would use a p-day would leave any shift short.

My question is that is this legal. Do they have the right to do this? What are your opinions on this issue?
 

sjvlad

Member
Dec 7, 2005
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It would ultimatly depend on your individual state laws, but I think they are within their legal rights to do this. Just kinda balls. =/
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
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Many people dont have sick leave, personal days, or paid vacation.

Quit whinning.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Of course it isn't illegal. They are free to set whatever policy they like just as you are free to find another job.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
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Originally posted by: bctbct
Many people dont have sick leave, personal days, or paid vacation.

Quit whinning.

Not whinning....just asking for everyones opinion. thanks for the constructive post though.
 

nissan720

Senior member
Dec 3, 2004
433
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It is only 5 days a year!

As long as they leave an exception where if contact the manager (with a valid problem) you do not get into trouble, I see no problems with that policy.

If you miss one of these 5 days, you don't deserve to get paid.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,763
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You say you are union affiliated...what does your union rep have to say? Generally, making changes like that will require some negotiation between the company and union officials...Read your contract...
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
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Originally posted by: nissan720
It is only 5 days a year!

As long as they leave an exception where if contact the manager (with a valid problem) you do not get into trouble, I see no problems with that policy.

If you miss one of these 5 days, you don't deserve to get paid.

Those 5 days are probably going to be:
Christmas
Christmas Eve
New Years Eve
4th of July
Thanksgiving

There is no exception...you cannot use a personal day (which is paid) on any of those days unless you are sick and can get a doctor's note. Correct me if I am wrong but i think it would be pretty hard to find a doctor's office that is open on any of those days.

Would you like to explain to your wife/kids why you have to work those days? I've worked 4pm-midnight on all of those holidays and its no fun but its part of the job sometimes. What some people are saying is....what difference does it make if its a holiday or not. How about when its the first nice day of summer and half the people call out and the shift is short...what about then? People are saying that if we give into these 5 days then next time it will be 12 days and then you cant take off when the shift is short, etc.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,445
130
106
This is legal, although it's not especially effective. A company I worked at in the past offered cashout on personal time at year end. People were more willing to work Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year Eve/Day because they were getting extra $$ to put towards holiday expenses.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
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Originally posted by: BoomerD
You say you are union affiliated...what does your union rep have to say? Generally, making changes like that will require some negotiation between the company and union officials...Read your contract...

Thats the whole point. We are union affiliated and our shop stewart is saying that people taking p-days on holidays is a problem....yet it is in our contract that we can use them at our own discretion. The union is trying to bargain with the company...possibly get another p-day (7 total per year) in exchange for the 5 day exclusion. I havent asked the shop steward personally but i dont think they can make changes to the contract like that legally.
 

doze

Platinum Member
Jul 26, 2005
2,786
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They can do whatever they want, there is no law that says business has to give holidays off or pay people for those holidays they do give off. If you don't like their policy then find another job
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
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Originally posted by: HotChic
This is legal, although it's not especially effective. A company I worked at in the past offered cashout on personal time at year end. People were more willing to work Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year Eve/Day because they were getting extra $$ to put towards holiday expenses.

We have that as well although the payout is pretty crappy. Most people make around $30/hr on average. 8 hours p-time * 30 = $240/day. They offer in exchange for 5 p-days $1000. So yes, you could work the 5 days and get $1200 in salary and the $1000 bonus....or people could just use the 5 days at their leasure and keep the $1200.

I would suppose if the company was to pay out the bonus + days pay more people would be inclined to trade...atleast I would.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
5,595
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Originally posted by: doze
They can do whatever they want, there is no law that says business has to give holidays off or pay people for those holidays they do give off. If you don't like their policy then find another job

They can do whatever they want when we negotiated a contact agreeing to getting the 6 personal days we can use at our leasure? That doesnt sound legal to me and if it is legal it doesnt sound like something to boost morale.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,763
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Not sure about NY laws on this, but GENERALLY, they can't make a change in your union contract without negotiating it first. (I used to be a business agent for my union) HOWEVER, there MAY be a clause in that contract which allows them to make a change like this due to public safety or something similar. ("This is really a major safety risk " as you put it earlier) IF there is no language in the contract explicitly prohibiting the use of personal days on the holicays, then making that change SHOULD have to be a negotiable item, and getting a couple extra days in trade might be a win-win for everyone...Also, in your first post, you say that "As a group we tend to say that p-days shouldnt be used on holidays so that the people that have to work holidays arent short staffed", so it sounds like many of you would agree with this, but since they're trying to make such a change official, you want something in return...sounds fair to me...
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Originally posted by: BoomerD
Not sure about NY laws on this, but GENERALLY, they can't make a change in your union contract without negotiating it first. (I used to be a business agent for my union) HOWEVER, there MAY be a clause in that contract which allows them to make a change like this due to public safety or something similar. ("This is really a major safety risk " as you put it earlier) IF there is no language in the contract explicitly prohibiting the use of personal days on the holicays, then making that change SHOULD have to be a negotiable item, and getting a couple extra days in trade might be a win-win for everyone...Also, in your first post, you say that "As a group we tend to say that p-days shouldnt be used on holidays so that the people that have to work holidays arent short staffed", so it sounds like many of you would agree with this, but since they're trying to make such a change official, you want something in return...sounds fair to me...

Boomer...you hit it exactly on the head. Exactly what I was trying to say....im pretty sure its not in the contract the way they are trying to force on us...but im sure theyre going to try and use some wierd verbage to force it on us.

 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Boomer

Our contract states this

"On January 1st of each year, each non probationary employee will also receive 6 personal leave days to use at their discretion during the calendar year for minor illness or to schedule as personal leave days."

Sick days are classified "serious health condition" that would require treatment by a doctor.

So for example if you wake up with a cold and dont want to go to work that day you would take a p-day as a doctor wouldnt sign off for taking 2 days off for that. Or if your child falls ill at school and you need to take him/her to the doctor you would use a p-day. There is no stipulation placed on p-days in the contract.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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There may be some kind of "savings clause" in the contract that has verbage relating to "public safety" or "staffing levels"...otherwise, IMO, this is a negotiable item. When I was a BA, I dealt with several issues where the contractor wanted to make a change that wasn't covered in the contract...and it ALWAYS had to be negotiated (and usually voted on by the applicable members) before it could be implemented.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Originally posted by: BoomerD
There may be some kind of "savings clause" in the contract that has verbage relating to "public safety" or "staffing levels"...otherwise, IMO, this is a negotiable item. When I was a BA, I dealt with several issues where the contractor wanted to make a change that wasn't covered in the contract...and it ALWAYS had to be negotiated (and usually voted on by the applicable members) before it could be implemented.

Boomer

I just spoke with the show steward and he said that they are trying to push the "schedule" part of the contract below.

"On January 1st of each year, each non probationary employee will also receive 6 personal leave days to use at their discretion during the calendar year for minor illness or to schedule as personal leave days."

The company is now saying that they are going to designate 5 days that a p-day cannot be used. However if you schedule it far enough in advance they can approve it so they can staff for it. However, if there are more then 1 person asking for the day off per shift then it would either come down to a seniority issue or putting name(s) in a hat to get the day off.

So basically if you did not schedule in advance to use a p-day on one of these designated days or your name wasnt pulled out of a hat or you werent senior enough you cannot have the day off.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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Next question, is what will they do if someone takes the day off anyway? THAT needs to be worked out as well...something in the disciplinary action section of the contract will have to deal with that issue, if they're going to make it a contractural issue..
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Originally posted by: BoomerD
Next question, is what will they do if someone takes the day off anyway? THAT needs to be worked out as well...something in the disciplinary action section of the contract will have to deal with that issue, if they're going to make it a contractural issue..

I would assume that you wouldnt get paid for it and some type of displinary letter would be placed in your file.
 

TangoJuliet

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2006
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Originally posted by: FoBoT
Originally posted by: alkohoLiK

My question is that is this legal. Do they have the right to do this? What are your opinions on this issue?

yes
yes
love it or leave it

Are you saying this because you know or because its how you feel?

Say I own a business and I hire you to work for me. We negotiate a couple things ie salary, vacation times, personal and sick time and sign a 3 year contract. Less then 1 year in I change my mind and decided to put stipulations on your vacation time and personal time. You think that is ok? And you think its legal as well? I am having a tough time believing it is....then why would anybody negotiate or sign contracts?
 

Nutdotnet

Diamond Member
Dec 5, 2000
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Originally posted by: FoBoT
yes, all of us on ATOT are employment lawyers with many years of experience dealing with these issues

You don't need to be an employment lawyer to answer his question....you just need to know what you're talking about.

There are no laws in the United States stating that companies are required to give employees holidays off. Employers have every right to mandate when they will be open for business and when they expect their employees to be on staff.

OP- Remember, just because you have personal days to use it doesn't mean you are allowed to use them whenever you feel like...read your policy on this, I'm sure it says something along the lines of, "supervisor approval". As long as your employer gives you a little notice about the change in policy...there's not a whole lot you can do...other than find a new job.

Edit- Religious Accomodations may come into play here but, for the most part, this is one of the very few arenas where employers still have the power.