Woodward/Costa book: Worried Trump could 'go rogue,' Milley took top-secret action to protect nuclear weapons

[fskimospy]

I don't recall refusing to respond to anything.

I don't care much for the authors of this "book".

Bob Woodward and national political reporter Robert Costa. IMO who knows how much truth is actually in it.

What do you make of Vindman's comment?

"If this is true GEN Milley must resign," Vindman tweeted. "He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that."

Milleys Phone Calls:

"General Li, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be OK," Milley told him during the first call, the book said. "We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you."

"Gen. Li, you and I have known each other for now five years. If we're going to attack, I'm going to call you ahead of time," Milley added, as reported by the book, "Peril," which is set to be released next week. "It's not going to be a surprise."

I agree with you to a certain extent, and I think that now that the danger is past Milley should resign but you guys are purposefully ignoring the circumstances of why he did it.

You’re right that Milley violated the principles of civilian control, but at that point the sitting president had just incited a violent insurrection to stay in power so the rules had basically gone out the window.

I do not have enough eye rolls for Republicans who excoriated Vindman as a traitor when he said the president shouldn’t be able to use his office to extort foreign powers for his personal benefit but who turn to him now.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^^ I think he rose above and acted in the best interests of the Constitution, the people and the entire free world. History may show this as one of the single greatest acts in U.S. history.

 

[interchange]

Rock meet hard place. I am sympathetic to Vindman's comments, however I am in no position to judge the impetus Milley had for his actions. What is clear is that there has been a continuous degradation of the mechanisms put in place to protect the country from dangerous and incompetent presidents like Trump, thus if there was reason to protect the nukes, I doubt there was an alternative action that was practically available. What is sickening, as has been pointed out, is that everyone in Trump's orbit recognized his danger yet supported him for the sake of political power.

 

[emperus]

Milley may have usurped the chain of command in his effort to save the nation from a raging scared shitless unpredictable incompetent POTUS willing to do anything, repeat ANYTHING to hold on to that litigious-proof bomb shelter he runs his crime-riddled operation out of. However, he is without doubt standing on a very high hill that speaks to his moral and ethical fortitude. He put the survival of the nation over his own personal welfare. It was the logical righteous thing to do under the actual real time circumstances he found himself in. He knew Pence wouldn't do a thing about stopping Trump from doing something everyone knew he was capable of so Pelosi, being next in of succession was the logical person to see.

Ironically so, Vindman stood on such high moral ground when he spoke truth to power and it seems he is demanding for Milley to suffer the same consequences he experienced yet under very different circumstances that may result in a very different outcome due to Milley's position and capabilities at his level of command.

edit - grammar

I don't think we know whether Milley usurped power or if he just reclarified what the process should be. I do think it warrants a congressional hearing to fully understand. I don't think it's legal for Trump to decide to bomb China without a congressional declaration of war. I'm assuming there is a process, which involves lawyers for that to happen. So, him telling his China counterpart who he speaks with regularly wouldn't be usurping Trump's power as Trump didn't have that power. It's complex stuff, which again needs a congressional investigation. The Dems are responsible for this IMHO. They were too weak with Trump, they should have found a means to have held his sycophant's accountable. The congress needs to flex it's muscles or they will atrophy. I think Pelost's final impeachment put a lid on Trump. Republicans as usual are scum.

 

[fskimospy]

^^^ I think he rose above and acted in the best interests of the Constitution, the people and the entire free world. History may show this as one of the single greatest acts in U.S. history.

It is emblematic of the diseased nature of conservative politics where the real scandal here is not the coup attempt but the response to it.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Rock meet hard place. I am sympathetic to Vindman's comments, however I am in no position to judge the impetus Milley had for his actions.

Milley faced a situation that no previous U.S. military figure ever has, and one that was never considered possible by the framers of the Constitution. There was no possible way it could have been written that would have considered a rogue dictator wannabee and what he/she might have wanted to do to save their own power. Pence and the Cabinet had the power to stop it, but they were just as complicit.

This was a situation where the only correct thing to do was think outside the box and act accordingly.

 

[IronWing]

You do know that civilians do not run the military??

Of course civilians run the military.

General Eisenhower


President Eisenhower


Notice a difference?

 

[brandonbull]

What threat? As for Milley's conduct, ordering his subordinates to follow strict chain of command is not a coup. Now go fuck off, traitor.

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup. If the book is correct, Milley determined that he would have control and orders from the President were not to be followed unless Milley approved them. Communicating with China in secret is also very problematic. Again, this is if the book is accurate.

 

[HomerJS]

Milley faced a situation that no previous U.S. military figure ever has, and one that was never considered possible by the framers of the Constitution. There was no possible way it could have been written that would have considered a rogue dictator wannabee and what he/she might have wanted to do to save their own power. Pence and the Cabinet had the power to stop it, but they were just as complicit.

This was a situation where the only correct thing to do was think outside the box and act accordingly.

Actually not the first time but a very rare event.
Pentagon Kept Tight Rein In Last Days of Nixon Rule - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup. If the book is correct, Milley determined that he would have control and orders from the President were not to be followed unless Milley approved them. Communicating with China in secret is also very problematic. Again, this is if the book is accurate.

As far as I can tell, he was upholding his oath. To protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

 

[fskimospy]

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup. If the book is correct, Milley determined that he would have control and orders from the President were not to be followed unless Milley approved them. Communicating with China in secret is also very problematic. Again, this is if the book is accurate.

Funny how you guys are very concerned about every coup except the one Trump attempted.

 

[HomerJS]

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup. If the book is correct, Milley determined that he would have control and orders from the President were not to be followed unless Milley approved them. Communicating with China in secret is also very problematic. Again, this is if the book is accurate.

Did that happen? If the book is accurate Milley did step in to prevent an illegal or reckless order given by Trump from being carried out

Would you just prefer China take some sort of action against us out of panic because they knew we had a maniac in charge?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup. If the book is correct, Milley determined that he would have control and orders from the President were not to be followed unless Milley approved them.

That would be ensuring the proper chain of command.

 

[WelshBloke]

Having the removal of civilian control of the military is a coup.

Not by the usual accepted use of the word.
Its usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by non democratic means. I don't remember that bit happening.

 

[fskimospy]

That would be ensuring the proper chain of command.

Well I think implicit in Milley’s order is that he would stop the release of nuclear weapons if Trump ordered them.

I think the conservative response to this is a retreat to legalism because the facts of the case are so bad for them. Essentially the military was presented with a criminal psychopath in the presidency who had just conducted a failed coup. Are they legally bound to follow his orders? Yes. Would any sane person follow that guy’s orders? No.

 

[HomerJS]

Well I think implicit in Milley’s order is that he would stop the release of nuclear weapons if Trump ordered them.

I think the conservative response to this is a retreat to legalism because the facts of the case are so bad for them. Essentially the military was presented with a criminal psychopath in the presidency who had just conducted a failed coup. Are they legally bound to follow his orders? Yes. Would any sane person follow that guy’s orders? No.

I fall back to my previous example.

If someone in your car is having a heart attack are you speeding and running a few red lights to get them to the hospital? Yes.
Is it illegal? Yes.
Would you do it again given same circumstances? Yes

 

[pcgeek11]

I agree with you to a certain extent, and I think that now that the danger is past Milley should resign but you guys are purposefully ignoring the circumstances of why he did it.

You’re right that Milley violated the principles of civilian control, but at that point the sitting president had just incited a violent insurrection to stay in power so the rules had basically gone out the window.

I do not have enough eye rolls for Republicans who excoriated Vindman as a traitor when he said the president shouldn’t be able to use his office to extort foreign powers for his personal benefit but who turn to him now.

I'm not ignoring anything, I haven't made any comments about my thoughts until now. I only asked what Mrsquished thought about Vindmans comments...

I do think Milley was out of line if those allegations are true and there should be reprecussions of some kind. Who knows what the real story is. I'm not too keen on taking this book at face value myself with those two authors.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not ignoring anything, I haven't made any comments about my thoughts until now. I only asked what Mrsquished thought about Vindmans comments...

So what are your thoughts about the circumstances in which he did it? Seems like they are pretty important. If a criminal psychopath who just attempted a failed coup ordered him to launch, should he have?

I do think Milley was out of line if those allegations are true and there should be reprecussions of some kind. Who knows what the real story is. I'm not too keen on taking this book at face value myself with those two authors.

Why? Woodward is widely considered to be highly accurate in his books.

 

[pcgeek11]

So what are your thoughts about the circumstances in which he did it? Seems like they are pretty important. If a criminal psychopath who just attempted a failed coup ordered him to launch, should he have?


Why? Woodward is widely considered to be highly accurate in his books.

No of course not, and I don't believe that he ever hinted at such nonsense of launching nuclear weapons without just cause.

Milley prevented a launch order that never was.

I have been against those shitheads for the raid on the Capital Building since it happened. Do I think it was coup attempt, No I do not. It was a riot that was whipped up starting at the rally and then became self supporting and feeding on itself. A whole lot of stupidity. The people involved should all pay a price for their participation in it.


Woodward is widely considered to be highly accurate in his books?

I disagree. I do think he used to be, but he has degenerated into seeking attention with his last two books. In my opinion.

 

[interchange]

Milley faced a situation that no previous U.S. military figure ever has, and one that was never considered possible by the framers of the Constitution. There was no possible way it could have been written that would have considered a rogue dictator wannabee and what he/she might have wanted to do to save their own power. Pence and the Cabinet had the power to stop it, but they were just as complicit.

This was a situation where the only correct thing to do was think outside the box and act accordingly.

In some ways it is true the framers did not consider such a thing as nuclear weaponry. As to considering a "rogue dictator wannabee", such a thing was the entire impetus for the creation of our country and the system of government selected...

As to Milley's situation, as I state I am not in a position to judge his impetus. I can't truly know how rational his fear was, but I believe it highly likely from what I do have view of that if I were in the same position I would make the same decision.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So we have a General admitted that he had implemented a coup. The same General that had zero clues that the Tallyban was going to overrun Afghanistan in a matter of days? The same General that failed to prevent hundreds of thousands of weapons and other military hardware to now be the property of the Tallyban?

Coup not found. There seems to be a lot more in the pending book and it seems to mirror what posters who have actually been in charge of nuclear weapons have vaguely said. There is a process to launching them and that process must be followed. No one person can launch them.
The General seems to be reiterating that process to the others who were involved.
I am not sure what the general command flow is but if proven wrong I will gladly admit to being wrong. Feel free to call me out if that happens.
Reminder to date you have not admitted to being wrong when you said Democrats or progressichs would be sad if Fat Boy in NK died, when in reality it was the former President who claimed to be concerned about Kim and wished him well.

 

[fskimospy]

No of course not, and I don't believe that he ever hinted at such nonsense of launching nuclear weapons without just cause.

Milley prevented a launch order that never was.

So then Milley didn't actually do anything wrong?

Milley felt there was a chance that the current criminal psychopath who just attempted a coup could launch a strike of many different types that could end the US in a war. I'm glad we agree he should have ignored such an order if it came.

I have been against those shitheads for the raid on the Capital Building since it happened. Do I think it was coup attempt, No I do not. It was a riot that was whipped up starting at the rally and then became self supporting and feeding on itself. A whole lot of stupidity. The people involved should all pay a price for their participation in it.

The insurrection aside at the time this happened Trump was attempting to get the vice president to illegally throw out the results of a lawful election. That's a coup attempt!

Woodward is widely considered to be highly accurate in his books?

I disagree. I do think he used to be, but he has degenerated into seeking attention with his last two books. In my opinion.

Yeah, it's basically a universal opinion. If you think he's inaccurate, what specifically?

 

[Jhhnn]

As far as I can tell, he was upholding his oath. To protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The events of Jan 6 prove beyond a doubt that Trump is, was & always will be an enemy of the Constitution.

 

[gothuevos]

So how many Constitutional crises did we actually dodge back in January?

 

[ivwshane]

If you planned to not uphold your duty if a certain event happened but said event never happened, exactly what have you done wrong?

Let’s put it in a more relatable context.

Let’s say you are discussing with a coworker about the possibility of workplace violence, by a current and known employee who is disgruntled, and how you would handle the situation if it were ever to happen. In that discussion you made a pact that if something went down you two would try and kill the offending employee first. The employee you are talking about ends up quitting two months later.

What if any repercussions should you face for having such a conversation and for coming up with a plan for an event that never happened?