Women now have avenue for restoration of mutilated clitori

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: n yusef

But your father or grandfather probably would have supported it. Just as they would have likely supported coverture, marital rape, segregation and slavery if you had ancestors back then. They would have been for the genocide and displacement of Native Americans. If they weren't in support of these, they likely would have had no opinion or have been uninformed.

We have a terrible history. To judge the atrocities of others without considering it is to be a fool.

Man you are pretty far out there.....



You dont excuse the actions of today due to actions of the past.

And what my great-great grandfather did really has nothing to do with me, sorry.


You are the only bigot on these forums with your shopping at black only stores

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Dude, I'm the last person to be on the same side as n yusef but you do need to go back and reread his post. He wasn't saying that we need to understand the practice and tolerate it, he was saying we need to understand the culture so we can change the way they think and act, putting an end to this practice. He never said that FGM should be left alone because it's a cultural practice.

For them to stop the barbarism they need to understand that it's barbaric; right now they think of it as appropriate and even necessary. You don't change people's views and actions by jumping in and doing executions (or you'd have a lot of orphans) but by gaining the respect of the leaders, talking to them, and having a few people in high places proudly declare that they are leaving their daughters intact. They set the trend and the rest follow. THEN you can put in laws and start punishing those that cling to the practice in the face of opposition.

Read the rest of his posts. He is rationalizing it by saying we had slavery and Japanese internment camps.


Its the classic liberal "everything is relative" BS that doesnt ever fly.


Maybe we should just learn to understand honor killings, suicide bombings, the stoning of Persian rape victims, etc, instead of wanting something done about it.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Dude, I'm the last person to be on the same side as n yusef but you do need to go back and reread his post. He wasn't saying that we need to understand the practice and tolerate it, he was saying we need to understand the culture so we can change the way they think and act, putting an end to this practice. He never said that FGM should be left alone because it's a cultural practice.

For them to stop the barbarism they need to understand that it's barbaric; right now they think of it as appropriate and even necessary. You don't change people's views and actions by jumping in and doing executions (or you'd have a lot of orphans) but by gaining the respect of the leaders, talking to them, and having a few people in high places proudly declare that they are leaving their daughters intact. They set the trend and the rest follow. THEN you can put in laws and start punishing those that cling to the practice in the face of opposition.

Read the rest of his posts. He is rationalizing it by saying we had slavery and Japanese internment camps.


Its the classic liberal "everything is relative" BS that doesnt ever fly.


Maybe we should just learn to understand honor killings, suicide bombings, the stoning of Persian rape victims, etc, instead of wanting something done about it.

I am absolutely not doing anything of the sort. I am not a moral relativist, no matter how many times you repeat it. I think that FGM is unequivocally wrong. That said, I think you are in no position to be a moralist. It is simply rude, and rudeness only undermines persuasion.

If you actually want to end FGM, not just judge its practitioners and supporters, you would take a rational and respectful stance. As it is, you just like to assert your moral superiority, which is ironic considering your moral bankruptcy.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: n yusef

But your father or grandfather probably would have supported it. Just as they would have likely supported coverture, marital rape, segregation and slavery if you had ancestors back then. They would have been for the genocide and displacement of Native Americans. If they weren't in support of these, they likely would have had no opinion or have been uninformed.

We have a terrible history. To judge the atrocities of others without considering it is to be a fool.

Man you are pretty far out there.....



You dont excuse the actions of today due to actions of the past.

And what my great-great grandfather did really has nothing to do with me, sorry.


You are the only bigot on these forums with your shopping at black only stores

You continue to misrepresent my thread and slander me. I posted a link to a CNN piece and offered my opinion, but nowhere did I claim to solely shop black. That is infeasible for me, and if it were possible I would not do so.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: n yusef

You continue to misrepresent my thread and slander me. I posted a link to a CNN piece and offered my opinion, but nowhere did I claim to solely shop black. That is infeasible for me, and if it were possible I would not do so.

Ironic coming from someone who accused me of being "biggoted towards gays" a few posts up

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

Really? That's not what Ayaan Hirsi Ali says.

"The man, who was probably an itinerant traditional circumciser from the blacksmith clan, picked up a pair of scissors. With the other hand, he caught hold of the place between my legs and started tweaking it, like Grandma milking a goat. "There it is, there is the kintir," one of the women said.

Then the scissors went down between my legs and the man cut off my inner labia and clitoris. I heard it, like a butcher snipping the fat off a piece of meat. A piercing pain shot up between my legs, indescribable, and I howled. Then came the sewing: the long, blunt needle clumsily pushed into my bleeding outer labia, my loud and anguished protests, Grandma's words of comfort and encouragement. "It's just this once in your life, Ayaan. Be brave, he's almost finished." When the sewing was finished, the man cut the thread with his teeth.

That is all I can recall of it.

But I do remember Haweya's blood-curdling howls. Though she was the youngest - she was four, I five, Mahad six - Haweya must have struggled much more than Mahad and I did, or perhaps the women were exausted after fighting us, and slipped, because the man made some bad cuts on Haweya's thighs. She carried the scars of them her whole life.

. . .

After a week the man came back and inspected us. He thought that Mahad and I were doing well, but said Haweya needed to be resewn. She had torn her wound while urinating and struggling with Grandma. We heard it happening; it was agony for her.

. . .

Mahad was already up and about, quite healed, when the man returned to remove the thread he had used to sew me shut. This was again very painful. He used a pair of tweezers to dig out the threads, tugging on them sharply. Again, Grandma and the other two women held me down. But after that, even though I had a thick, bumpy scar between my legs that hurt if I moved too much, at least my legs didn't have to be tied together anymore, and I no longer had to lie down without moving all day."

From "Infidel", by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Any person or culture which supports such an abhorrent practice is sick and inhumane. There is no excuse to do such a thing to children. None. The very fact that you have attempted to defend it, even in such an oblique way, tells me all I need to know about your heart.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: n yusef

You continue to misrepresent my thread and slander me. I posted a link to a CNN piece and offered my opinion, but nowhere did I claim to solely shop black. That is infeasible for me, and if it were possible I would not do so.

Ironic coming from someone who accused me of being "biggoted towards gays" a few posts up

I edited my post because I ackowledged my poor word choice. You are not bigoted, no, bigotry is too strong of a stance. You simply don't care about gays. Just like you don't care about the women who have been raised with FGM as the norm, the people who have been told all their lives that they are acting morally. You cannot see their humanity, only their transgressions. Yet, I don't see you calling for the death of old white people who supported segregation, of men who defended their right to owning their wives' property, of people who torture other people. You are morally bankrupt; you have no right to call Africans, some of whom are just as bankrupt as yourself, barbarians.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Its the classic liberal "everything is relative" BS that doesnt ever fly.

That's good for an irony of the week award, coming from the person and the side that fails to pretty much ever take responsibility for 'his side's' wrongs.

Maybe we should just learn to understand honor killings, suicide bombings, the stoning of Persian rape victims, etc, instead of wanting something done about it.

Maybe we should just learn to understand the desire to kill two million Vietnamese in the name of the cold war, to oberthrow democracies and install puppets, to sponsor death squads, to implement economic imperialism and be the world's largest arms merchant, instead of wanting to admit any wrong and fix the problem.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: n yusef

I edited my post because I ackowledged my poor word choice. You are not bigoted, no, bigotry is too strong of a stance. You simply don't care about gays. Just like you don't care about the women who have been raised with FGM as the norm, the people who have been told all their lives that they are acting morally. You cannot see their humanity, only their transgressions. Yet, I don't see you calling for the death of old white people who supported segregation, of men who defended their right to owning their wives' property, of people who torture other people. You are morally bankrupt; you have no right to call Africans, some of whom are just as bankrupt as yourself, barbarians.

Read the post of what happens to little girls above you. I have the right to call those assholes whatever I want. Death is too good for them.


And if there was still slavery going on in the US today, that would be something we could talk about. But because it is long gone, there is no reason for it. Again, justifying todays actions with the past only makes you look like the bleeding heart that you are.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

Really? That's not what Ayaan Hirsi Ali says.

"The man, who was probably an itinerant traditional circumciser from the blacksmith clan, picked up a pair of scissors. With the other hand, he caught hold of the place between my legs and started tweaking it, like Grandma milking a goat. "There it is, there is the kintir," one of the women said.

Then the scissors went down between my legs and the man cut off my inner labia and clitoris. I heard it, like a butcher snipping the fat off a piece of meat. A piercing pain shot up between my legs, indescribable, and I howled. Then came the sewing: the long, blunt needle clumsily pushed into my bleeding outer labia, my loud and anguished protests, Grandma's words of comfort and encouragement. "It's just this once in your life, Ayaan. Be brave, he's almost finished." When the sewing was finished, the man cut the thread with his teeth.

That is all I can recall of it.

But I do remember Haweya's blood-curdling howls. Though she was the youngest - she was four, I five, Mahad six - Haweya must have struggled much more than Mahad and I did, or perhaps the women were exausted after fighting us, and slipped, because the man made some bad cuts on Haweya's thighs. She carried the scars of them her whole life.

. . .

After a week the man came back and inspected us. He thought that Mahad and I were doing well, but said Haweya needed to be resewn. She had torn her wound while urinating and struggling with Grandma. We heard it happening; it was agony for her.

. . .

Mahad was already up and about, quite healed, when the man returned to remove the thread he had used to sew me shut. This was again very painful. He used a pair of tweezers to dig out the threads, tugging on them sharply. Again, Grandma and the other two women held me down. But after that, even though I had a thick, bumpy scar between my legs that hurt if I moved too much, at least my legs didn't have to be tied together anymore, and I no longer had to lie down without moving all day."

From "Infidel", by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Any person or culture which supports such an abhorrent practice is sick and inhumane. There is no excuse to do such a thing to children. None. The very fact that you have attempted to defend it, even in such an oblique way, tells me all I need to know about your heart.

I should have been more explicit. FGM is usually, but not always performed by women. Text

I have in no way defended it, ever. Do not repeat such slander. I simply do not think that it is moral or pragmatic for you to call it's practitioners "barbarians." If someone calls you a barbarian, why would you listen to anything else that they say?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: OCguy

Its the classic liberal "everything is relative" BS that doesnt ever fly.

That's good for an irony of the week award, coming from the person and the side that fails to pretty much ever take responsibility for 'his side's' wrongs.

Maybe we should just learn to understand honor killings, suicide bombings, the stoning of Persian rape victims, etc, instead of wanting something done about it.

Maybe we should just learn to understand the desire to kill two million Vietnamese in the name of the cold war, to oberthrow democracies and install puppets, to sponsor death squads, to implement economic imperialism and be the world's largest arms merchant, instead of wanting to admit any wrong and fix the problem.

So we shouldnt say anything about the torture of little girls in Africa because of our past actions? We should stay quiet about it because we have no room to talk?

 

[n yusef]

A practical question: if respect is proven more effective at ending FGM than rudeness, would you support a respectful approach? Whom do you care about more, the future victims of FGM or the current practitioners?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: n yusef

I should have been more explicit. FGM is usually, but not always performed by women. Text

I have in no way defended it, ever. Do not repeat such slander. I simply do not think that it is moral or pragmatic for you to call it's practitioners "barbarians." If someone calls you a barbarian, why would you listen to anything else that they say?

We all know why you are taking your position in here. If this was FGM going on in Russia, you wouldnt be here to argue its relativity to US actions.

You probably cant stand that we as a country look down on the barbaric actions of Africans when it is deserved.

You fight for all African causes here, no matter how stupid it makes you look. Be it an affirmative action thread, a shopping at black stores only thread, etc. Im sure if someone started a reparations thread, I know where you would come down.


I really hope noone takes you seriously anymore with your admitted prejudice.


Oh, and about me not "caring" about gays? I got off my ass in an election where I knew my vote for president was wasted (Obama was getting CAs electorals no matter what) and voted to give gays the right to marry whoever they happen to love.

You dont know what I do, so really, fuck off.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: n yusef

I should have been more explicit. FGM is usually, but not always performed by women. Text

I have in no way defended it, ever. Do not repeat such slander. I simply do not think that it is moral or pragmatic for you to call it's practitioners "barbarians." If someone calls you a barbarian, why would you listen to anything else that they say?

We all know why you are taking your position in here. If this was FGM going on in Russia, you wouldnt be here to argue its relativity to US actions.

You probably cant stand that we as a country look down on the barbaric actions of Africans when it is deserved.

You fight for all African causes here, no matter how stupid it makes you look. Be it an affirmative action thread, a shopping at black stores only thread, etc. Im sure if someone started a reparations thread, I know where you would come down.


I really hope noone takes you seriously anymore with your admitted prejudice.


Oh, and about me not "caring" about gays? I got off my ass in an election where I knew my vote for president was wasted (Obama was getting CAs electorals no matter what) and voted to give gays the right to marry whoever they happen to love.

You dont know what I do, so really, fuck off.

I would be strongly against FGM, but would not call it's practitioners barbarians and demand their execution, if it were a Russian practice. I would do my best to respect people's humanity while disagreeing with their traditions. It is obvious that respect is a superior persuasive device than dehumanization. Why did you ignore my question: if a respectful approach to ending FGM is more effective than execution, would you support it?

Finally, how you dare call me a racist after you called Africans "barbarians," the exact same language racists have used for centuries.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: SirStev0
I can't believe they wrote "Clitoraid".


EDIT:

Just out of interest what religion and/or culture actually practices this horrible procedure?

It's almost as common in Africa as circumcision is in the West.

On that note, I want my foreskin back.

That isn't funny dude.

Yeah, you're right. Male circumcision is not as outrageous as female circumcision, it's socially accepted, and "it looks better that way." AMIRITE?

I'm not trying to make light of, or excuse the barbaric female circumcision practice, but let's make an effort to be fair here--taking a chop to a child's genitals before they can consent, regardless of sex should be frowned upon. If you want to tell me that one practice of taking a knife to the crotch is an outrage, while another is a negligible inconvenience, you're being a bit of a hyporite.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: SirStev0
I can't believe they wrote "Clitoraid".


EDIT:

Just out of interest what religion and/or culture actually practices this horrible procedure?

It's almost as common in Africa as circumcision is in the West.

On that note, I want my foreskin back.

Circumcision isn't common in all of the west. Just the United States.

Hopefully, infant circumcision will go away once we get UHC. It really is a massive waste of money.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: OCguy
The women I have slept with all needed vaginal reconstruction by the time I was done with them.....

On a serious note, I wish every asshole male who ruins a girl's life with this nonsense could be round up and shot. Mutilation like that is just one more reason Africa is the biggest shithole on this planet.

FGM is mostly done by women.....

http://www.unfpa.org/gender/practices2.htm#8

Women want their daughters to look like them and to share in their culture. Sound familiar?

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

No, we dont need to "understand" it. They need to stop the barbarism, or remain forever as the world's bastard stepchild that noone likes to discuss except Bono.

I see, you're a Know Nothing.

I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

I had always thought it was done by men, although I knew it was only done to women of status. I think I have to agree with OCguy though, this practice disgusts me so much I think that a some executions might go a long way to ending this practice, but that may just be the part of me that is so disgusted speaking.

We can't end FGM if we call it's supporters barbarians and choose to remain ignorant about their culture. If you don't respect people, why would you expect them to listen to what you're saying?

Why do you need respect when you can just preemptively invade their country? That's the conservative way!

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: SirStev0
I can't believe they wrote "Clitoraid".


EDIT:

Just out of interest what religion and/or culture actually practices this horrible procedure?

It's almost as common in Africa as circumcision is in the West.

On that note, I want my foreskin back.

That isn't funny dude.

Yeah, you're right. Male circumcision is not as outrageous as female circumcision, it's socially accepted, and "it looks better that way." AMIRITE?

I'm not trying to make light of, or excuse the barbaric female circumcision practice, but let's make an effort to be fair here--taking a chop to a child's genitals before they can consent, regardless of sex should be frowned upon. If you want to tell me that one practice of taking a knife to the crotch is an outrage, while another is a negligible inconvenience, you're being a bit of a hyporite.

Like I said, I don't really have a position on male circumcision but factually I don't think you can equate a procedure that produces no pain with a procedure that produces lifelong pain. In lack of consent they're equal, in affected areas of the body they're equal, but in lasting effects they are not equal.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Why do you need respect when you can just preemptively invade their country? That's the conservative way!

We dont need to invade anything. They can just continue to be looked at like the stone-age assholes that they are, who will never advance into the 21st century unless thier countrymen do something about it.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: daishi5

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

I had always thought it was done by men, although I knew it was only done to women of status. I think I have to agree with OCguy though, this practice disgusts me so much I think that a some executions might go a long way to ending this practice, but that may just be the part of me that is so disgusted speaking.

We can't end FGM if we call it's supporters barbarians and choose to remain ignorant about their culture. If you don't respect people, why would you expect them to listen to what you're saying?

Why do you need respect when you can just preemptively invade their country? That's the conservative way!

No, that's not the conservative way. What's the term n yusef used, know nothing? It fits you quite adequately with that.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: n yusef
Female genital mutilation is a terrible practice, but it is not performed by men, or even supported by men as much as it is by women. FGM is performed only on women with status in their communities, so the end of FGM would serve to undermine their status. I think there is a similar perspective on male circumcision here; circumcised men want their boys circumcised to legitimize their own circumcision.

I am in no way justifying FGM, or equating it to male circumcision, but I think we should recognize it's complexities.

Really? That's not what Ayaan Hirsi Ali says.

"The man, who was probably an itinerant traditional circumciser from the blacksmith clan, picked up a pair of scissors. With the other hand, he caught hold of the place between my legs and started tweaking it, like Grandma milking a goat. "There it is, there is the kintir," one of the women said.

Then the scissors went down between my legs and the man cut off my inner labia and clitoris. I heard it, like a butcher snipping the fat off a piece of meat. A piercing pain shot up between my legs, indescribable, and I howled. Then came the sewing: the long, blunt needle clumsily pushed into my bleeding outer labia, my loud and anguished protests, Grandma's words of comfort and encouragement. "It's just this once in your life, Ayaan. Be brave, he's almost finished." When the sewing was finished, the man cut the thread with his teeth.

That is all I can recall of it.

But I do remember Haweya's blood-curdling howls. Though she was the youngest - she was four, I five, Mahad six - Haweya must have struggled much more than Mahad and I did, or perhaps the women were exausted after fighting us, and slipped, because the man made some bad cuts on Haweya's thighs. She carried the scars of them her whole life.

. . .

After a week the man came back and inspected us. He thought that Mahad and I were doing well, but said Haweya needed to be resewn. She had torn her wound while urinating and struggling with Grandma. We heard it happening; it was agony for her.

. . .

Mahad was already up and about, quite healed, when the man returned to remove the thread he had used to sew me shut. This was again very painful. He used a pair of tweezers to dig out the threads, tugging on them sharply. Again, Grandma and the other two women held me down. But after that, even though I had a thick, bumpy scar between my legs that hurt if I moved too much, at least my legs didn't have to be tied together anymore, and I no longer had to lie down without moving all day."

From "Infidel", by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Any person or culture which supports such an abhorrent practice is sick and inhumane. There is no excuse to do such a thing to children. None. The very fact that you have attempted to defend it, even in such an oblique way, tells me all I need to know about your heart.

I should have been more explicit. FGM is usually, but not always performed by women. Text

I have in no way defended it, ever. Do not repeat such slander. I simply do not think that it is moral or pragmatic for you to call it's practitioners "barbarians." If someone calls you a barbarian, why would you listen to anything else that they say?

You've read that account, and believe it is not barbaric? You're clearly just a sad little troll.

 

[AreaCode707]

Geez, this thread proves to me that P&N peeps can start a war over anything. Let's recap:


Whether you're dem or rep, liberal or conservative, from the US or not:
- everybody in here agrees that FGM is horrific
- everybody in here agrees that FGM should be stopped
- everybody in here agrees that their gut reaction to FGM and those who practice it is, "OMG, how on earth can you do that to little girls!"
- everybody in here agrees that people from Africa are fully functional human beings, by nature equal to human beings everywhere else on the globe, with good and bad individuals
- everybody in here agrees that education in these parts of Africa is lacking and that women's rights and understanding of sex is lacking
- everybody in here wants to improve education, women's rights and sex ed
- everybody in here believes that improving education, women's rights and sex ed in Africa would go a long way towards stopping FGM

WTF is everybody screaming at each other about?
- Because a few people posted their immediate gut reaction of, "this is horrible, what kind of monster could do this to a little girl"?
- Because people responding to that gut reaction did not react as though it were a gut reaction but as though it were a serious, reasoned, critical evaluation that concluded an entire culture is made of monsters?
- Because the responding personal attacks made the gut-reaction posters defensive and personally attack back?
- Escalate ad infinitum

With the energy that has gone into fighting in this thread, how much more could have actually been done to publicize this issue and actually maybe make a small dent in the practice.

Our commonalities on this topic are so much more meaningful than our differences; can't we, for once, shake hands on it and turn together to face the real enemy (in this case, FGM)?

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
turn together to face the real enemy (in this case, FGM)?

My face is going nowhere near that.

On a lighter note:

I feel bad for internet poster n yusef. He means well, but he tries too hard. Pull yourself up by your boot-straps, young man (assuming that you have boots).