Is democracy the best form of government? I beleive it is not for many reasons. However, I will not discuss those reasons here.
Is democracy the best form of government? I beleive it is not for many reasons. However, I will not discuss those reasons here.
He is a chauvanist pig IMO. (wait do you mean overseas ie: Middle East/Asia or USA or Austrailia?
I'll chime in anyways) My guess is he is TRYING to refer that should should dress more modestly. If you wear that miniskirt, and that tight tight t shirt that lets you see right through to your skin and the details on your bra...well don't come crying if something bad happens. Because although you didn't WANT it to happen, guys for some reason get that perception that they can try something.
It reminded me of the time I was eating with some friends, and a few of them always like to "scout out girls" ie: check out their butt or see how big their breasts are bla bla bla and point it out to us. I really don't like that because I view it as objectifying women so I ignored them 99% of the time. However, as we were waiting in line one day he goes
"magomago, turn around omg omg omg so hot so hot I would knock that". I looked at him and said "no, you need to stop treating women like that. They are people you dum*sh|T"
"Dude she is wearing sooo little, her pants probably barely cover her underwear...though she is probably wearing a thong"
"So what! Who cares what she wears - What if that is how she feels comfortable? Do you think she wants people like you to sit around and fantasize and some ******"?
And then he replies, " if a girl dresses like skimpy, then yes. They want us to look at them, and to make comments and stare. If they didn't, they wouldn't dress like that period."
friend 2: "Yeah Magomago, that is how things work, and I guarantee she knows what she is doing. There is no chance in hell she is completely innocent~ girls are not that dumb"
I'm not saying they were going to rape her (lol no no), but at least to them, the average guys, they had that perceptions of "this is how it works". Since then, that is when I started to believe that the way we dress does affect people's perceptions...and at least for women, dressing in a very light manner WILL bring a certain type of perception towards her. And EVERYONE has their own reactions to things..and for some guys that reaction might be much more than simply "OMG CHECK HER OUT", and that is probably one of the regretful reasons for rape that occurs.
I think because of that, as well as the fact that women generally are more beautiful than men (even women agree they would rather stare at a beautiful lady than a guy), that they have a different standard of modesty...although if you think about it for a moment guys generally dress much more modest~ can you imagine if all guys wore muscle ts and rockstar jeans that grabbed our butts?
Btw, I love how this is a total bashfest~ as if the Austrailian speaks for the rest of us Muslims. Its like looking to a certain group of Mormons in Utah and lambasting them for their continuted polygamy, and then blaming the rest of Christianity on them. Then a few of you take it further and assume that this is "Islamic Culture". What if I've speak to "clerics" that take a different more moderate view? Then I made a thread on it? You know what the replies will be - little to none, and perhaps total doubting of the man. I can take a man who graduated with a PhD in Islamic Studies from Al Azhar (of course when you get to that point there is no difference between sunni and shi'ite- you are just muslim) and lived most of his life in eypgt and who takes a much more moderate view than even many of you guys and you would still argue because of the false stereotype that many of you guys believe.
Women ARE treated very poorly in much of Asia and Africa...but that is because they are treating them according to how they have learned through CULTURE. If they learned Islamically of what the proper method is ~ they would cast that junk from their culture AWAY. Now I'm not saying this guy doesn't know how stuff, rather I'm addressing all these mindless "Teh Ebil" comments.
Btw, we don't even know the full context of what was said. That cleric MAY have had a point, and what he said MAYBE taken out of context (not like we have the entire speech to compare it to), but most likely he had his cultural stereotype anyways and then made his claims. Its simply a lot of speculation at this point for the entire paragraph or so, but many of you have taken it to be some kind of crusade because you got offended he called women a "piece of meat" (btw I highly doubt many of you would get angry if your friend said that about some hot lady walking by. A lot of the anger seems superficial and exists simply because someone who claimed to be a Muslim Cleric said it)
dna Most clerics out there are simply that: self proclaimed. Islam has no, and never had any formal clergy. The closest exception is Iran with their ayatollah heiarchy which is something from Zoroastrianiasm last I read.
Its not even Pat Roberston in terms of popularity. People are looking for what is similar to the random loonie priest in Tennesee or any other area that claims everything he says is correct.
If they were looking for anyone with remotely the same influence as pat robertson, you'd have to look at figures like Ali Sistani, or some of the guys coming out of Al Azhar and they are nowhere as ridiculous as this...which would be expected since the guy is an isolated loonie anyways.
For starters...repeat the fact that only congress has the power to declare war , incase they didn't notice it the first time
A few other things in terms of limiting the influence of corporations on the government, etc. Make the government the representative of the people reather than representative of special interests I think it is because it seems to be the most flexible form of goverment and allows it's people the most freedom.
To each his own. One day this, and one day that...The ever shifting political landscape of the world.
[/quote]
I would have thought otherwise
There is no heiarchy or one authoritative leader, so it would be how each community interprets the message and ideally debates it with one another. At a few points in history this has happened~ Ultimately (not to get too far off topic), Democracy within Islam would be just that - Democracy and freedom to do whatever so as long as you remain "Within the bounds of Islam".
It isn't a question of representation, or who makes the laws...but what is socially ACCEPTED.
Democracy, to a degree, is ultimatly marred by that...if you can get a lot of people to think it is right (Even if it is wrong), then you can make it legal and claim it "democracy in action". But Islam does forbid certain things for Muslims, so while they live in a democracy they must constrain themselves on that...
Ultimately however I don't see the point of an Islamic democracy. If a government forces people to live a certain way, they will most likely rebel. IT is better to have peopel who truly believe and not consume pork or drink alcohol because they will not, rather than because the government will kick their asses if they do.
Just let a democracy which is blind to religion (ie: doesn't mean it stamps out religion in the government, simply it doesn't see it so cannot legislate on religion) grow, and people themselves can still live according to the Quran and thus making themselves live in an Islamic Democracy. In that sense, I live in one
However, if the woman fails to bring 4 witnesses, than she might get charged with adultery, and then stoned to death, I.E the female.
Isn't that Sharia Law in Pakistan?
Oh, well, if the law won't get the victim, then maybe someone in the family will take care of business, in order to protect the family's "honor"....:roll:
:laugh: Hahahahahahah :laugh:
Sure, the West doesn't have the ideal freedom of speech, and in fact, I doubt there can be such a thing. However, the West is still light years ahead of any Islam-subjugated nation.
However, if you want to compare the USA to some hypothetical perfect state just to make yourself feel better, then go ahead.
[n]dna[/b]. No. That is not how it is written in the Quran, and this is part of the stereotype that I am speaking about. Now before you go grab another of one of the million of your links on government laws --> go get the link on the Quran and read what it actually says right there...quite different than what you have.
But I think you do have a heiarchy of sorts, governed by public opinion rather then a vote and it is just as vulnerable to abuse as power in the west is. You just can't vote the bums out of office as easily as we can.Originally posted by: magomago
I would have thought otherwise
I think a democracy contained within a muslim country would work. It's when muslims try to change MY democracy that the incompatibility issues surface. What I coinsider to be socially acceptable is not in accordenance with Islamic norms. Look at the Mohamed cartoon mess as an example of what I'm talking about
That is how a democracy has flexibility. People can change thigns they don't like. We don't always make the right choices, but over time I think we eventually get it right.
I guess I don't see what your saying here? In a democracy the goverment stays out of your business. If you want to drink and eat prok, fine. If you don't want to, that's fine too, so I'm missing your point here??
Just let a democracy which is blind to religion (ie: doesn't mean it stamps out religion in the government, simply it doesn't see it so cannot legislate on religion) grow, and people themselves can still live according to the Quran and thus making themselves live in an Islamic Democracy. In that sense, I live in one
Yes, but as I stated previously that doesn' allow for me to live in MY kind of a democracy.
If they are all self-proclaimed, then they are all equal, and it doesn't matter.
Funny how the issue of being "self-proclaimed" comes into play only when one of them says something inflammatory, and damaging to the community.
1prophet
Diamond Member
- Aug 17, 2005
- 5,313
- 534
- 126
He apologized under the threat of being banned, by Lebanese Muslim Association.
Australia fury at cleric comments
Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".
But he has now apologised for any offence caused by his comments, The Australian newspaper reports.
Leading Muslim women condemned the comments and PM John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".
"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.
In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI
Born in Egypt
Aged 64
Imam in Sydney
Appointed mufti of Australia in 1989
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.
"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."
A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.
The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said.
Ban threat
The leader of Australia's largest Islamic organisation has threatened to ban the cleric from teaching at Lakemba Mosque in Western Sydney.
Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which owns the mosque, said he condemned Sheikh Hilali's words.
"The board [of the LMA] has unlimited powers in respect of his teachings in the mosque. We can do anything that's required to prevent him from teaching in our mosque. If you haven't got the backing of Australia's largest and most established Islamic organisation then you are out on a limb," he is quoted as saying in The Australian.
If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred
Sheikh Hilali
But Mr Zreika said the LMA had yet to fully review the contents of the sermon and Sheik Hilali should be offered the benefit of the doubt until any offence had been proved.
A copy of the cleric's comments delivered in a sermon to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan was initially published in The Australian.
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.
The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.
"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.
Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.
"Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.
Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".
High-profile case
The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says the cleric's latest comments are seen as particularly insensitive because Sydney was the scene six years ago of a series of gang rapes committed by a group of Lebanese Australians, who received long prison sentences.
Finance Minister Peter Costello called on Muslims to condemn the speech.
"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea," he said.
"They can actually think that it's not as bad as it is."
A number of leading Muslim women have already spoken out against the sermon, describing it as repulsive and offensive.
Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said the comments could be an incitement to crime.
"Young Muslim men who now rape women can cite this in court, can quote this man... their leader in court," she told Australian media.
She added that the cleric should be deported for inciting rape.
Australia fury at cleric comments
Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".
But he has now apologised for any offence caused by his comments, The Australian newspaper reports.
Leading Muslim women condemned the comments and PM John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".
"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.
In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
SHEIKH TAJ EL-DIN AL-HILALI
Born in Egypt
Aged 64
Imam in Sydney
Appointed mufti of Australia in 1989
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.
"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."
A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.
The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said.
Ban threat
The leader of Australia's largest Islamic organisation has threatened to ban the cleric from teaching at Lakemba Mosque in Western Sydney.
Tom Zreika, president of the Lebanese Muslim Association, which owns the mosque, said he condemned Sheikh Hilali's words.
"The board [of the LMA] has unlimited powers in respect of his teachings in the mosque. We can do anything that's required to prevent him from teaching in our mosque. If you haven't got the backing of Australia's largest and most established Islamic organisation then you are out on a limb," he is quoted as saying in The Australian.
If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred
Sheikh Hilali
But Mr Zreika said the LMA had yet to fully review the contents of the sermon and Sheik Hilali should be offered the benefit of the doubt until any offence had been proved.
A copy of the cleric's comments delivered in a sermon to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan was initially published in The Australian.
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.
The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.
"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.
Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.
"Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.
Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".
High-profile case
The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says the cleric's latest comments are seen as particularly insensitive because Sydney was the scene six years ago of a series of gang rapes committed by a group of Lebanese Australians, who received long prison sentences.
Finance Minister Peter Costello called on Muslims to condemn the speech.
"If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we've had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea," he said.
"They can actually think that it's not as bad as it is."
A number of leading Muslim women have already spoken out against the sermon, describing it as repulsive and offensive.
Federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said the comments could be an incitement to crime.
"Young Muslim men who now rape women can cite this in court, can quote this man... their leader in court," she told Australian media.
She added that the cleric should be deported for inciting rape.
:thumbsup: Good to know!
EZDuzit I'll get back later to you
I think we are thinking the same thing...just differently I'm sorry if it didn't make much sense b/c I was doing something elseDNA I will later, though I suggest you take the initiative and do some searching first... especially since you are so avid about posting links, I would think your googling skills rank among the best here.
I tried, but then I landed on some text regarding Mohammed marrying his son's ex-wife, and about him being "given" the permission to sleep with his wife's maid, even though he promised his wife not do so.
At that point I decided that I didn't feel like wadding through religious text, and might do so later
At that point I decided that I didn't feel like wadding through religious text, and might do so later
This poster is exactly right. Nothing this cleric said was illegal to the best of my knowledge, Australia and America are "free countries." If we don't like what our immigrants say, then maybe we should amend our constitution or make stricter immigration quotas, or not let "radicals" in. A lot of you whining in outrage would automatically condemn any of my suggestions if it was in another thread about say, left wing activists.
That cleric was practically rationalizing rape, and bemoaning the punishment.
Read the articles again
Read the articles again
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
This is not uncommon folks happening all over europe, scandnavia (malmo sweden big time) etc Here are some more "right" to rape infidel slutty womens stories from Austailia. Just keep repeating Religion of peace...and listening to the useful idiots and appologists above..it will all go away.
Gang rapist claims right to assault
and more...
The Sydney gang rapes were a series of five separate crimes involving rape which occurred in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. The first four occurred in the southern hemisphere winter of 2000, and the fifth in 2002. The common thread in these cases was that the perpetrators were gangs of young males of Muslim background (Lebanese in the first four cases, Pakistanis in the fifth), while the victims were females of European descent. The perpetrators were alleged to have made racist comments against their victims in the course of the offences, leading some to categorise them as hate crimes. During the trial of one of the offenders, Bilal Skaf, text messages sent on his mobile phone were disclosed, containing sentiments such as "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up".
The separate gang rapes were, in chronological order:
August 10, 2000 - Two females aged 17 and 18 accepted a lift from Chatswood, lured by the offer of marijuana. They were taken to Northcote Park, Greenacre, where they were forced to perform oral sex on eight males.
August 12, 2000 - Another victim was raped at gunpoint by two males at Gosling Park, Greenacre, having been lured there by one of the rapists, who was an acquaintance. She escaped before she could be raped by another twelve males waiting their turn.
August 30, 2000 - A woman, named C at the trial (she later revealed her identity on the 60 Minutes television program) was lured from a train at Bankstown by the promise of marijuana. She was then raped at three separate locations by 14 males over a period of six hours. As a final humiliation they hosed her down with water. The teenager raped on August 30 was called an "Aussie pig", told she would be raped "Leb-style" and asked "does Leb cock taste better than Aussie cock?" by three of her assailants
September 4, 2000 - Two 16 year old females were lured from Beverly Hills train station to a house in Lakemba, were they were raped by three males over a period of four hours.
July 28, 2002 - Five males, four of whom were brothers, lured, threatened with knives and bullets and sexually assaulted two girls, aged 16 and 17, at one of the brothers' houses in Ashfield. One of the victims was told that the other had been killed because she had resisted orders. The rapists have had their names suppressed and in news reports have only been referred to as MMK, MRK, MSK, MAK and RS.
Gang rapist claims right to assault
and more...
The Sydney gang rapes were a series of five separate crimes involving rape which occurred in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. The first four occurred in the southern hemisphere winter of 2000, and the fifth in 2002. The common thread in these cases was that the perpetrators were gangs of young males of Muslim background (Lebanese in the first four cases, Pakistanis in the fifth), while the victims were females of European descent. The perpetrators were alleged to have made racist comments against their victims in the course of the offences, leading some to categorise them as hate crimes. During the trial of one of the offenders, Bilal Skaf, text messages sent on his mobile phone were disclosed, containing sentiments such as "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up".
The separate gang rapes were, in chronological order:
August 10, 2000 - Two females aged 17 and 18 accepted a lift from Chatswood, lured by the offer of marijuana. They were taken to Northcote Park, Greenacre, where they were forced to perform oral sex on eight males.
August 12, 2000 - Another victim was raped at gunpoint by two males at Gosling Park, Greenacre, having been lured there by one of the rapists, who was an acquaintance. She escaped before she could be raped by another twelve males waiting their turn.
August 30, 2000 - A woman, named C at the trial (she later revealed her identity on the 60 Minutes television program) was lured from a train at Bankstown by the promise of marijuana. She was then raped at three separate locations by 14 males over a period of six hours. As a final humiliation they hosed her down with water. The teenager raped on August 30 was called an "Aussie pig", told she would be raped "Leb-style" and asked "does Leb cock taste better than Aussie cock?" by three of her assailants
September 4, 2000 - Two 16 year old females were lured from Beverly Hills train station to a house in Lakemba, were they were raped by three males over a period of four hours.
July 28, 2002 - Five males, four of whom were brothers, lured, threatened with knives and bullets and sexually assaulted two girls, aged 16 and 17, at one of the brothers' houses in Ashfield. One of the victims was told that the other had been killed because she had resisted orders. The rapists have had their names suppressed and in news reports have only been referred to as MMK, MRK, MSK, MAK and RS.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
There is no doubt the true message of Jesus has been perverted by just about everyone who utters words against another.. or harbors them unspoken but seething within..
I guess I see all this as Earthers assuming God gives two hoots in hell about Earth. I think God only cares about the Soul of mankind not his wars and lies and all manner of violent actions against others..... God seems to have told everyone what criteria is needed to get to heaven and not much of what I see and read meets that.. and it is all done in the name of God... that must really piss him off.. I'd think anyhow..
Well you just totally lost the arguement.
Whats better an Islamic Facist Dictatorship?
Hell, I'd rather live under a communist regime, than an islamo-facist regime.
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