• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Woman thrown out of ladies' bathroom for not looking feminine enough

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
199
101
Like I said before, the initial mistake is understandable and an apology would have been fine. But after she provides ID, the bouncer and the restaurant staff ask him/her and her party to pay for their meals and leave the restaurant (basically throwing them out). As usually happens, it's not the intitial screwup that is the bad thing, it's the following coverup/persistance/refusal to acknowledge the possibility of an error having been made. She's going to win her suit, hands down.
 

DaShen

Lifer
Dec 1, 2000
10,712
1
0
If a person dresses?.like a man
and then grooms herself?..like a man
carries herself?.like a man

Why should she be surprised when people treat her

like a man????
[/quote]

QFT

Seriously, it is a reverse double standard.
 

Nikamichi

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2003
7,760
0
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
This case is simple. It's not gender discrimination if she's ejected for making other patrons uncomfortable and using a womens stall, when it was believed that she was a man. Therefore, her rights were not violated. It's more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Try using a more common sense approach next time you argue your case.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
I came here to see the man face. :)


Honestly though, this whole thing is just a mountain made out of a mole hill. Sueing is dumb in cases like this. I can understand if she complained to the owner and never went back to the place, but people really need to stop sueing for every little thing that goes wrong in their life. It's really hurting everyone more than it helps. Businesses have to be so overprotective these days that they can no longer do anything out of good faith for your honest customer. I like the old days of business much more. People are generally more friendly when they do not have to fear the law with every person that steps through their door.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
This case is simple. It's not gender discrimination if she's ejected for making other patrons uncomfortable and using a womens stall, when it was believed that she was a man. Therefore, her rights were not violated. It's more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Try using a more common sense approach next time you argue your case.
Huh? Common sense would have been to verify her ID and then let the complainer know that the person was a female. Her rights were violated, plain and simple. Try knowing the law before you make an argument.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
This case is simple. It's not gender discrimination if she's ejected for making other patrons uncomfortable and using a womens stall, when it was believed that she was a man. Therefore, her rights were not violated. It's more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Try using a more common sense approach next time you argue your case.
Huh? Common sense would have been to verify her ID and then let the complainer know that the person was a female. Her rights were violated, plain and simple. Try knowing the law before you make an argument.

You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
10
56
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
This case is simple. It's not gender discrimination if she's ejected for making other patrons uncomfortable and using a womens stall, when it was believed that she was a man. Therefore, her rights were not violated. It's more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Try using a more common sense approach next time you argue your case.
Huh? Common sense would have been to verify her ID and then let the complainer know that the person was a female. Her rights were violated, plain and simple. Try knowing the law before you make an argument.

You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
her right to have her vagina recognized through her man clothes and appearance.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
Gender discrimination
Ya, the fact that the guy refused to check ID could easily lead to a court finding them guilty of gender discrimination. It's still a gray area no matter how you look at it though and it's way too much trouble to go through if you ask me. I know women like this really feel strongly about how they are treated and there are a lot of double standards in the mix, but to me it would really boil down to how bringing this to court just isn't worth my time. Even if she wins, she won't be proving anything.

Sueing for revenge is dumb. Sueing to get rich quick is stupid too. Sueing to make an activist statement is even worse. Why can't people just take the easy road out of their problems? They always seem to make things more complicated than it needs to be simply because "they can".
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,649
98
91
IfI got thrown out of a men's bathroom for not being masculine enough, I'd probably be too humiliated to even sue. :D
 

isekii

Lifer
Mar 16, 2001
28,578
3
81
I saw this on the news the other night.

She not only looks like a He, she sounds like a he.
 

thepd7

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2005
9,429
0
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
Where did you read there was an apology?
They offered her a free meal which I'm sure was apologetic.
Where does it say that? She might be ok if they actually apologized, but I didn't see anywhere in the article where they admitted any wrongdoing.

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
You really think it's ok for someone to come in the opposite sex restroom (bouncer is male, restroom was female) and bang on the door of your stall while someone is trying to use the toilet? Do you also think they can put cameras in the restrooms?
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: jjsole
IfI got thrown out of a men's bathroom for not being masculine enough, I'd probably be too humiliated to even sue. :D
Dude looks like a lady!
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
While I agree with most of statements here on her appearance and even the reaction which was appropiate, here is the problem. Once she and no matter how how she may appear, tried to establish that she was indeed a female, the bouncer and the restaurant had an obligation to check her id. It is against the law to deny a person service without a legitmate reason. Unfortunately a person's apparent gender look is not one of them.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
Where did you read there was an apology?
They offered her a free meal which I'm sure was apologetic.
Where does it say that? She might be ok if they actually apologized, but I didn't see anywhere in the article where they admitted any wrongdoing.

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
You really think it's ok for someone to come in the opposite sex restroom (bouncer is male, restroom was female) and bang on the door of your stall while someone is trying to use the toilet? Do you also think they can put cameras in the restrooms?
If someone complains that you aren't in the right place, sure they can.

The camera comparison is so off the mark, it wouldn't be worth it to comment on.

If people fear for their safety, it is the reasonable thing to do, and IDs could be faked.

Stop blowing things out of proportion. This isn't a big deal. She chooses to look like a man, so she must learn to deal with confusion.
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
0
0
Had a similar experience recently at a bar. It was kind of slow, and my gf (who has very poor eyesight) claimed that a man walked into the women's restroom. The waiter on staff stood outside the bathroom until s/he came out, and it was a s/he. In other words, a woman that could easily be mistaken for a man even by those with very good eyesight. My gf felt pretty bad, and we all had a good laugh about it. The obvious difference is that the waiter didn't charge into the bathroom, nor make it known to the s/he at all that there was any confusion on the matter.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,182
635
126
The bouncer sounds like a douchebag. If she showed him ID that indicates that she's a woman then that's the point at which you apologize profusely and leave her alone. What an idiot.
 

PepePeru

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2005
3,846
0
0
i know a lesbian that has been accused of being a man several times in a women's room.
i can definitely see how people would think her a man at first glance.
she's tall, pretty burly, short hair, dresses like a man...
 

wheresmybacon

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
3,899
0
71
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
That's an interesting argument, because bouncers usually tend to think otherwise.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
1
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
Gender discrimination
Ya, the fact that the guy refused to check ID could easily lead to a court finding them guilty of gender discrimination. It's still a gray area no matter how you look at it though and it's way too much trouble to go through if you ask me. I know women like this really feel strongly about how they are treated and there are a lot of double standards in the mix, but to me it would really boil down to how bringing this to court just isn't worth my time. Even if she wins, she won't be proving anything.

Sueing for revenge is dumb. Sueing to get rich quick is stupid too. Sueing to make an activist statement is even worse. Why can't people just take the easy road out of their problems? They always seem to make things more complicated than it needs to be simply because "they can".
Suing for activist reasons is how a lot of laws get changed...
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
1
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
Gender discrimination
Ya, the fact that the guy refused to check ID could easily lead to a court finding them guilty of gender discrimination. It's still a gray area no matter how you look at it though and it's way too much trouble to go through if you ask me. I know women like this really feel strongly about how they are treated and there are a lot of double standards in the mix, but to me it would really boil down to how bringing this to court just isn't worth my time. Even if she wins, she won't be proving anything.

Sueing for revenge is dumb. Sueing to get rich quick is stupid too. Sueing to make an activist statement is even worse. Why can't people just take the easy road out of their problems? They always seem to make things more complicated than it needs to be simply because "they can".
Suing for activist reasons is how a lot of laws get changed...
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,182
635
126
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Because he's making an assumption here. If there is any doubt he should have just let it go. It's not as though she was in the restroom with a camera. So someone complained, he checked it out and she checked out fine according to her ID.
 

Turin39789

Lifer
Nov 21, 2000
12,219
5
81
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: thepd7
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
Where did you read there was an apology?
They offered her a free meal which I'm sure was apologetic.
Where does it say that? She might be ok if they actually apologized, but I didn't see anywhere in the article where they admitted any wrongdoing.

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

You keep repeating that her rights were violated.. please tell us what right you think was violated.
You really think it's ok for someone to come in the opposite sex restroom (bouncer is male, restroom was female) and bang on the door of your stall while someone is trying to use the toilet? Do you also think they can put cameras in the restrooms?
If someone complains that you aren't in the right place, sure they can.

The camera comparison is so off the mark, it wouldn't be worth it to comment on.

If people fear for their safety, it is the reasonable thing to do, and IDs could be faked.

Stop blowing things out of proportion. This isn't a big deal. She chooses to look like a man, so she must learn to deal with confusion.
What part of her pissing in a closed stall scares you?

 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,377
1
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Suing for activist reasons is how a lot of laws get changed...
Only if they gain popularity in the media spotlight for long enough and it usually requires many instances. It does happen though. Still, in this case, there is no law to change here. The bouncer made a mistake and he deserves to pay the consequences. That's all. Suing the business makes no sense unless the owner happens to support what the bouncer did after he found out the truth. The only thing that should come out of this is that the bouncer gets fired. She doesn't deserve any compensation. If she feels "damaged" because she was mistaken for a man then she shouldn't being actively trying to look like a man. Pretty simple if you ask me.

 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,640
8
81
The fact that someone's appearance is so beyond the norm that a person PROVE that they are female is pretty f*&ked up to begin with. Damn the legalities involved. You put yourself in that situation... YOU made it an issue.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY