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Woman thrown out of ladies' bathroom for not looking feminine enough

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,640
8
81
Wellllllll... she does look rather.... uh... ;)

City Room has heard of women being thrown out of men?s bathrooms, men who identify as women being thrown out of women?s bathrooms and, of course, men getting into trouble in men?s rooms. But we had not heard of a woman being thrown out of a women?s room ? by a worker who didn?t believe she was really a woman ? until now.

The woman, Khadijah Farmer, a 28-year-old who lives in Hell?s Kitchen, says she was at the Caliente Cab restaurant in the West Village after the Gay Pride Parade on June 24, when she left the table to go to the women?s room. While she was in there, the male bouncer burst into the bathroom.

?He began pounding on the stall door saying someone had complained that there was a man inside the women?s bathroom, that I had to leave the bathroom and the restaurant,? Ms. Farmer said. ?Inside the stall door, I could see him. That horrified me, and it made me feel extremely uncomfortable. I said to him, ?I?m a female, and I?m supposed to be in here.? After I came out of the bathroom stall, I attempted to show him my ID to show him that I was in the right place, and he just refused to look at my identification. His exact words were, ?Your ID is neither here nor there,? which means that my ID didn?t matter to him.?

Ms. Farmer, who is lesbian, describes herself as ?not the most feminine,? but she has been a woman her entire life. Her New York State non-driver photo identification card clearly lists her sex as female.

She said the bouncer followed her up the stairs and back to the table, asked her party to pay for the appetizers they had already eaten, and then made them leave the restaurant.

Telephone messages left today at the Caliente Cab restaurant were not returned.

Today, on Ms. Farmer?s behalf, the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund filed a lawsuit in State Supreme Court in Manhattan against Caliente Cab, asserting that she was the victim of gender discrimination.

While Ms. Farmer herself is not transgender, the organization sees the case as strategically important and potentially precedent-setting, said Michael D. Silverman, the executive director and general counsel of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund.

The suit is being filed [pdf] under both city and state law. The city law, whose gender protections are generally considered more expansive, is intended to protect residents whose gender expression is different from what is traditionally associated with the legal sex assigned to a person at birth.

While state law does not include such a protection, the defense fund argues that state law should be interpreted as protecting New Yorkers against sexual stereotyping, in which individuals are expected to conform to societal expectations of gender-appropriate behavior. The fact that the bouncer refused to look at Ms. Farmer?s identification card before ejecting her demonstrated that he was judging her simply by how she looked, Mr. Silverman said.

Sexual stereotyping, he said, was established as a legal concept under a 1989 United States Supreme Court case, Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, in which a woman who failed to make partner, in part because she was considered too ?macho,? sued her firm for discrimination.

In a 6 to 3 ruling, the court found that evidence that a woman was judged by her male supervisors on the basis of stereotyped notions of appropriate female appearance and behavior could be used to establish the existence of illegal discrimination. While the Supreme Court ruling was used to expand the scope of discrimination lawsuits in the workplace, the legal idea of sexual stereotyping was largely dormant, Mr. Silverman said, until 2004, when the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ruled that transsexuals were protected.

?We?re asking the court to say that sex stereotyping by public accommodation is just as harmful when practiced by a public accommodation like a restaurant as it is when it is practiced by an employer,? Mr. Silverman said. ?If Khadijah were wearing pearls and white gloves, would the bounder have treated her like that??

Ms. Farmer says being mistaken for a man happens to her on a daily basis ? especially in bathrooms or locker rooms, where she often gets funny looks. ?I have a script that is almost routine,? she said. ?I say. ?I am a woman, and I?m supposed to be here.? It?s very simple. It doesn?t come off as aggressive or violent or angry.?

That usually changes the tenor of the conversation almost immediately, she said. ?Usually they are embarrassed. The common response is that they are extremely apologetic that they make the mistake.?

Before the June episode, she had never had to pull out her identification card to prove her gender, she said.

In recent years, the public bathroom has become a contentious forum for gender identity. The defense fund reached a settlement in 2005 with a security company that allows people to use the restrooms of the gender with which they identify..

Advocacy groups, like People in Search of Safe and Accessible Restrooms (yes, they use the acronym), have been advocating for gender-neutral bathrooms.

Are such bathrooms catching on? In 2005, The Times noted, the proliferation of unisex bathrooms in high-end restaurants like the Modern and Per Se. It first appeared that the unisex stalls ? like electronic-eye sensors, stone communal sinks and waterfall urinals ? were an attempt by restaurants to one-up each other on the bathroom frontier. But perhaps these high-end restaurants ? and even colleges ? are in fact at the cutting edge of gender accommodation.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes....-room-prompts-lawsuit/

I liked this quote in the comments section:

If a person dresses?.like a man
and then grooms herself?..like a man
carries herself?.like a man

Why should she be surprised when people treat her

like a man????
 

ForumMaster

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
7,797
1
0
well she doesn't look like a woman so i'm not surprised this happened. if that idiot from the "leave britney alone" youtube video came into a men's bathroom, i bet some would think that he's a woman. not they'd care.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
25,477
1,181
126
This is definitely interesting. The fact that the bouncer burst into the ladies room instead of standing at the door and waiting for her to come out surprised me. They should have sent a female employee in to make sure there was no one else in the bathroom and then covered the door until she got out and handled it from there. Unfortunately, the business will likely lose the case or it will get thrown out.

It doesn't say what she's suing for does it? I mean, punitive damages on this can't be too much because she admits that she deals with the mistaken identity every day. Pain and suffering would be minimal and she understands why there was a mixup in communication. (just not why the idiot bouncer wouldn't check her id)
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
199
101
I don't see a problem with someone going in and checking after a patron complains about a man being in the women's restroom... but when she offered her ID to prove that she was in the right restroom, he should have apologized and left it at that. That's where the bouncer/restaurant screwed up, everything they did after she provided proof of gender (using her ID) is going to end up costing them a lot of $$$.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
10
56
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
No its not. As PokerGuy said, she tried to offer ID and prove it. They did not care and as such they violated the law. They had a chance to do it the right way but they chose other wise.
 

Nikamichi

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2003
7,760
0
0
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
No its not. As PokerGuy said, she tried to offer ID and prove it. They did not care and as such they violated the law. They had a chance to do it the right way but they chose other wise.
The bouncer obviously believed it was a man. Why would showing ID make a difference, especially if there was a chance it was fake?
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
I don't see a problem with someone going in and checking after a patron complains about a man being in the women's restroom... but when she offered her ID to prove that she was in the right restroom, he should have apologized and left it at that. That's where the bouncer/restaurant screwed up, everything they did after she provided proof of gender (using her ID) is going to end up costing them a lot of $$$.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
1
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
 

Nikamichi

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2003
7,760
0
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,640
8
81
The bouncer obviously believed it was a man. Why would showing ID make a difference, especially if there was a chance it was fake?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because she looked like a man? ID doesn't mean shit.
I'd agree here
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
 

Nikamichi

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 2003
7,760
0
0
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
10
56
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
10
56
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
Did the bouncer throw "her" out because she was a lesbian, or was it because he believed a man was using the womens' restroom? ID doesn't mean shit.
Why does a legal ID mean shit? She offered it and he refused to review it. The bouncer fooked up and hopefully gets fired.
I'd refuse to review it as well. It looks like a man, walks and probably talks like a man. Put yourself in the bouncer's shoes. He was just doing his job and was most likely infuriated that a man would try to pull a stunt like that.
That's ignorance for you. The bouncer didn't do his job. He could have checked her ID but refused to. Hopefully, he's fired. Being in NYC, my guess is that there's plenty of butch lesbians around.
he should be fired, but sue the place? that's wrong.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
Where did you read there was an apology?
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,713
10
56
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
So you think a bouncer should be able to violate somebody's rights and then apologize to get away with it?
no, she should be offended for life now, maybe even be afraid to leave her home now , seek therapy, have a neck injury now (there must be a neck or back injury in this somewhere), and sue the pants off anyone involved so she can feel vindicated.

i've already said she should accept the apology and move on. if it were me that is what i would do. you walk like a duck, you look like a duck, somebody is going to think you are duck. it may be embarrassing to you if someone calls you out as a duck, but if they apologize for their mistake and vow to have a better understanding of ducks (duck sensitivity training or something) then you shouldn't further it by trying to get money out of them to make it all better.
Where did you read there was an apology?
They offered her a free meal which I'm sure was apologetic.
 

Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
5
91
Originally posted by: Nikamichi
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: moshquerade
alright, in a way i feel bad from her. she's a butch lesbian. we all get the idea that lesbians are so beautiful and feminine looking, but in reality a lot of them look like guys. so then i see why she'd be mistaken for a man.

hopefully she doesn't win her lawsuit. she should just accept an apology and move on. it was an honest mistake.
No its not. As PokerGuy said, she tried to offer ID and prove it. They did not care and as such they violated the law. They had a chance to do it the right way but they chose other wise.
The bouncer obviously believed it was a man. Why would showing ID make a difference, especially if there was a chance it was fake?
Well, being the bouncer he should have been the authority on what is and isn't a fake ID. Anyway the lawsuit is certainly being pushed with an agenda to ban gender stereotyping in public accomodations. I can't say that I disagree with the notion. I doubt it has as much to do with damages.
 

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