Woman beats a 91-year-old Mexican man with a brick, tells him to ‘go back to your country’

[realibrad]

Those statistics are unfortunately useless unless we're only interested in tracking hate crimes in our 10 largest cities. Frustratingly, we know very little about hate crime trending in this country, a fact which may be highly convenient for Trump. Finish reading your own link.

How is it useless? J is saying that 100% of the increase is Trump, yet, from that data we have we see its been going up even before Trump. That seems entirely relevant. You dont think it is?

 

[brycejones]

That pretty much explains the problem here.

Doc we get it, you don't like to discuss the hate your dear leader has unleashed. Or that you repeatedly fall for badly done propaganda.

 

[brycejones]

How is it useless? J is saying that 100% of the increase is Trump, yet, from that data we have we see its been going up even before Trump. That seems entirely relevant. You dont think it is?

It certainly took off after he announced his campaign and started giving comfort to racist ideology.

 

[realibrad]

Its not my fault you dont understand percentages.

Oh, and what is it that I do not understand in the context of percentages?

Data shows it was going up by double digit percentages before Trump. An audit is done and it turns out there was under reporting. After that, we see a 50% increase from that trend, which means that its roughly around 5-7% above the expected amount given the previous trend established.

So what did I get wrong son?

 

[realibrad]

It certainly took off after he announced his campaign and started giving comfort to racist ideology.

Either, Trump and what he said is so relevant that he must speak magic, or, what he is saying is hitting an underlying nerve with people.

How do you think Trump became so relevant so quickly saying things that are not new from the Republican party?

 

[brycejones]

gish galloping bull shitery above

 

[HomerJS]

I think your premise is flawed. Trump and what he says has an influence, and him now being POTUS increases that influence. That said, Trump won because people already were feeling that way. Further, there need to be accountability by the individuals. Trump is a hype man, but people that commit acts of violence are still mainly responsible for their actions. So, Trump is making things worse, but he is not the majority of the problem.

Trump is also not saying anything new. What is different is that he is doing it from a position that is new. In terms of trying to put a % to it, I could not. Its well above 0, and in my opinion not backed by data and just feelings, its probably somewhere between 15-25%.

Asking about Trump creating a toxic climate is a perfectly legitimate question. Someone who may have it in them to abuse people because they are Hispanic may not because of societal pressure and the pressures of decency. When you have the biggest example in the Unites States, the President setting the tone people feel emboldened and don't feel the pressures of decency. Indecent immoral President fosters a climate of indecency and immorality.

I would agree only because its too hard to prove a causal link between Trump and an individual act. Trump influencing direct behavior is probably 15-25%. However the societal climate of indecency is more measurable and I would fault Trump at a level of 50-60%

Having said that and reading your response why are your standards so low for the President of the United States??

 

[HomerJS]

Either, Trump and what he said is so relevant that he must speak magic, or, what he is saying is hitting an underlying nerve with people.

How do you think Trump became so relevant so quickly saying things that are not new from the Republican party?

Birtherism

 

[realibrad]

Asking about Trump creating a toxic climate is a perfectly legitimate question. Someone who may have it in them to abuse people because they are Hispanic may not because of societal pressure and the pressures of decency. When you have the biggest example in the Unites States, the President setting the tone people feel emboldened and don't feel the pressures of decency. Indecent immoral President fosters a climate of indecency and immorality.

I would agree only because its too hard to prove a causal link between Trump and an individual act. Trump influencing direct behavior is probably 15-25%. However the societal climate of indecency is more measurable and I would fault Trump at a level of 50-60%

Having said that and reading your response why are your standards so low for the President of the United States??

Trump being responsible for the climate is very different than what J and I were talking about. J provided numbers about acts. I then said Trump is not 100% responsible for the increases in acts, and he is saying yes he is. If you are talking about climate, that is different than acts.

How are my standards low? I have not taken a positive or negative stance with my comments in this thread. Why are you questioning my standards?

 

[realibrad]

Birtherism

Birtherism was started before Trump and was rooted in racism. You have shown that this started long before Trump. But, I think you and I are talking about different things. You are talking about climate and I have been talking about acts committed.

 

[interchange]

Just got through explaining this to another poster in a different thread. One person's moral responsibility for a bad incident in no way detracts from another person's moral responsibility for the same incident. The idea that there is a fixed pool of "blame" whereby blaming one person must automatically diminish the legitimate blame of another is a fallacy, and a very common one.

If you want to say the attackers here were individually responsible for this particular incident while Trump is collectively responsible for the society wide uptick in these kinds of incidents, fine. Either way, the blame of one has no bearing on the blame of another.

I think you replied to me to reiterate the basic point I was making, but I'm not sure since we worded it differently. I think we are in agreement with the principle operating here. Namely the fallacy of a fixed pool of blame and therefore the risk of avoiding or reducing responsibility that rests with either this woman or Trump.

 

[HomerJS]

Birtherism was started before Trump and was rooted in racism. You have shown that this started long before Trump. But, I think you and I are talking about different things. You are talking about climate and I have been talking about acts committed.

Who started birtherism before Trump?

 

[HomerJS]

Trump being responsible for the climate is very different than what J and I were talking about. J provided numbers about acts. I then said Trump is not 100% responsible for the increases in acts, and he is saying yes he is. If you are talking about climate, that is different than acts.

How are my standards low? I have not taken a positive or negative stance with my comments in this thread. Why are you questioning my standards?

I get that.

My only comment about low standards was your conclusion Trump gets around 15% of the blame in uptick of incidents. Maybe you didn't directly mean but it is a low and damning standard to have for a POTUS.

 

[realibrad]

Who started birtherism before Trump?

You did not know that Trump did not start it?

Conspiracy theories about Obama's religion appeared at least as early as his 2004 U.S. Senate campaign in a press release by Illinois political candidate Andy Martin,[29] and, according to a Los Angeles Times editorial, as Internet rumors.[30] These rumors about his religion expanded into his values, cultural, and national loyalty, and, by 2008, into conspiracy theories about his citizenship.[citation needed]

From the start of March 2008, rumors that Obama was born in Kenya before being flown to Hawaii were spread on conservative websites, with the suggestion that this would disqualify Obama from the presidency. In April of that year, anonymous e-mails from supporters of Hillary Clinton repeated the same rumor,[31] including a Clinton Iowa campaign worker, who was fired for sending the e-mail.[32][33] These and numerous other chain e-mails during the subsequent presidential election circulated false rumors about Obama's origin, religion, and birth certificate.[34][35]

On June 9, 2008, Jim Geraghty of the conservative website National Review Online suggested that Obama release his birth certificate.[36][37] Geraghty wrote that releasing his birth certificate could debunk several false rumors circulating on the Internet, namely: that his middle name was originally Muhammad rather than Hussein; that his mother had originally named him "Barry" rather than "Barack"; and that Barack Obama Sr. was not his biological father, as well as the rumor that Barack Obama was not a natural-born citizen.[37][38][39]

In August 2008, Philip J. Berg, a former member of the Democratic State Committee of Pennsylvania, brought an unsuccessful lawsuit against Obama, which alleged "that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya."[40][41]

In October 2008, an NPR article referred to "Kenyan-born Sen. Barack Obama."[42] Also that month, anonymous e-mails circulated claiming that the Associated Press (AP) had reported Obama was "Kenyan-Born".[43] The claims were based on an AP story that had appeared five years earlier in a Kenyan publication, The Standard.[43][44] The rumor-checking website Snopes.com found that the headline and lead-in sentence describing Obama as born in Kenya and misspelling his first name had been added by the Kenyan newspaper, and did not appear in the story issued by the AP or in any other contemporary newspaper that picked up the AP story.[43][45]

In 2012, Breitbart.com published a copy of a promotional booklet that Obama's literary agency, Acton & Dystel, printed in 1991 (and later posted to their website, in a biography in place until April 2007) which misidentified Obama's birthplace and states that Obama was "born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii." When this was posted by Breitbart, the booklet's editor said that this incorrect information had been her mistake, not based on anything provided to her agency by Obama.[46]

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Who started birtherism before Trump?

Clinton supporters. Is this a trick question?

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh, and what is it that I do not understand in the context of percentages?

Data shows it was going up by double digit percentages before Trump. An audit is done and it turns out there was under reporting. After that, we see a 50% increase from that trend, which means that its roughly around 5-7% above the expected amount given the previous trend established.

So what did I get wrong son?

Now you're just quibbling, doubling down on it over & over again.

Trump spews hatred. That appeals to all too many Americans, sad to say, which appears to be the only reason to have ever voted for him. When they're not busy hating on Hillary, they're hating on Mexicans, Muslims, Asians or anybody else who happens to be a convenient scapegoat.

 

[realibrad]

I get that.

My only comment about low standards was your conclusion Trump gets around 15% of the blame in uptick of incidents. Maybe you didn't directly mean but it is a low and damning standard to have for a POTUS.

I don't think that is low, and now I'm confused because you seemed to agree with those subjective numbers.

Just being that % from Trump could be the difference between hundreds of acts, possibly even thousands. That is not small. We lost our shit in this country over Ebola and it killed how many people?

 

[Jhhnn]

You did not know that Trump did not start it?

Please. That doesn't really matter. Trump quickly assumed the role of Birther in Chief & we all know it.

 

[realibrad]

Now you're just quibbling, doubling down on it over & over again.

Trump spews hatred. That appeals to all too many Americans, sad to say, which appears to be the only reason to have ever voted for him. When they're not busy hating on Hillary, they're hating on Mexicans, Muslims, Asians or anybody else who happens to be a convenient scapegoat.

What am I doubling down on?

 

[realibrad]

Please. That doesn't really matter. Trump quickly assumed the role of Birther in Chief & we all know it.

This is too complex for you to understand. Now would be a good time to duck out.

The point was that Trump rode a wave that was already there. Sure he made it bigger, but, this shit was going on before him. To say Trump is the cause of something that started before him is stupid.

 

[HomerJS]

Clinton supporters. Is this a trick question?

You love bringing up lies. Here's what really happened.

The Clinton people initially investigated the possibility. They soon realized there wan't anything to it. Your aren't going to find any transcripts of Clinton people going out on the media spreading fear about this evil dark skinned guy born in Kenya.

 

[brycejones]

Clinton supporters. Is this a trick question?

Tricked your sorry ass. Maybe you should consume less right wing propaganda.

 

[realibrad]

You love bringing up lies. Here's what really happened.

The Clinton people initially investigated the possibility. They soon realized there wan't anything to it. Your aren't going to find any transcripts of Clinton people going out on the media spreading fear about this evil dark skinned guy born in Kenya.

That is spin though. They did fire someone for sending out emails about this thing, so staffers were involved. Starting it is a reach but its also not verified or unverified which it really could never be. But, her staff did help spread this BS.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You love bringing up lies. Here's what really happened.

The Clinton people initially investigated the possibility. They soon realized there wan't anything to it. Your aren't going to find any transcripts of Clinton people going out on the media spreading fear about this evil dark skinned guy born in Kenya.

Some day that bubble of yours is going to pop. There is no proof that the Clinton campaign started it...but there's plenty of evidence that her supporters did indeed start it.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hecking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

 

[realibrad]

Some day that bubble of yours is going to pop. There is no proof that the Clinton campaign started it...but there's plenty of evidence that her supporters did indeed start it.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hecking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

You should have added more. They will not read the whole thing, and will miss this part.

According to a Telegraph article, Clinton supporters circulated the "birther" theory in an email as early as April 2008.

"Barack Obama’s mother was living in Kenya with his Arab-African father late in her pregnancy," the email said, according to the Telegraph. "She was not allowed to travel by plane then, so Barack Obama was born there and his mother then took him to Hawaii to register his birth."
The allegations gained momentum that month. Clinton conceded the race on June 7, and three days later a website called Pumaparty.com (an acroynom for Party Unity My A--) encouraged Clinton backers to support Republican nominee Sen. John McCain.

The website promoted the theory with an email that read, "Obama May Be Illegal to Be Elected President," as Daily Beast editor John Avlon has documented.

According to Avlon, Linda Starr, a Clinton volunteer in Texas, was key to spreading the rumor. She connected with with Philip Berger, an attorney and Clinton supporter, who sued to block Obama’s nomination. The suit was thrown out.